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2011 recruitment

Old 22nd Apr 2010, 09:42
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2011 recruitment

Does anyone know of the opportunities likely to be available next year and what time of year any recruitment is likely to take place?

I'm currently finishing my frozen ATPL with just a bit to go...

Thanks in advance...
Wrightflyer1 is offline  
Old 22nd Apr 2010, 15:17
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Your timing couldnt have been worse my friend!!...a recession and an ash cloud to add insult to injury!! Be prepared for a very long wait!
No one knows when (and to what level) the industry is going to improve. People can only guess so I might as well give you mine!! I think things will improve in 2011 but it will take a long time to filter down to your (low-hours) level. All these guys payin to fly isnt gonna help ur situation either (or indeed anyones) and I have to be honest...if I was a newly qualified guy..i would be pretty concerned :in fact i got 2500 hours and an ATPL and I still am !! I went along the instructor route but it seems even that is a bit of a dinosaur these days so i sure dont envy you. My advice would be to stay current and concentrate on a job outside of flying....if something flying comes up,treat it as a bonus. My prediction for flying jobs in the UK/europe for newbies...at least 2012


Hey....i would love to be proved wrong tho!!
Good luck mate in any case
alphaadrian is offline  
Old 22nd Apr 2010, 15:50
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Oh dear...... It's grim. Another lamb to the slaughter. (Nothing personal. I'm a former slaughtered lamb myself.) The training was the easy part. You are in direct fierce competition with thousands of 250-300 hour people...like myself. None of us have a crystal ball, but notwithstanding what Gordon Brown says, there are dark days ahead for the European and UK economy. There will be minimal recruiting, and they can choose people with line experience. We are VERY far down the pecking order. Unless you have 27,500 euros + VAT + money for living expenses + very loyal wife/husband/partner.
I hate to "piss on your bonfire" but I've never had an interview in 2 1/2 years, two IR renewals, 25 hours in 757/767 sims, loads of "contacts"......and that was in better times.

WWW, another one who should have listened to your well intended warnings!
wangus is offline  
Old 22nd Apr 2010, 19:55
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I waited 6 months from finishing my training, applied to ryanair as soon as i finished and have been accepted following their assesment, Bank loan 27500 euros, earn around 60K a year so it can easily be paid off. Consider it an investment rather than expenditure, just like your training has been so far. There are jobs there, not many anywhere else.

I wish you all the best with the rest of your training and hope to fly an NG with you someday soon
767200ER is offline  
Old 22nd Apr 2010, 20:17
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...in direct fierce competition with thousands of 250-300 hour people...
If this were your only competition. Also in the market are 2,000 - 3,000 (and more) hour jet & turbo-prop drivers who can hit the ground running.

Unless you have 27,500 euros + VAT + money for living expenses...
If this were the solution... The only thing it will guarantee is that you'll be poorer by that amount plus the repayments and still be unemployable until the market picks up.

PM
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Old 22nd Apr 2010, 21:07
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Depends who you are, where you and and who you know.

I've got mates who are struggling to get jobs and others that got a job within 5months of completing modular training with a great British airline.
Aerouk is offline  
Old 22nd Apr 2010, 21:25
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earn around 60K a year so it can easily be paid off.
Are you going straight to the LHS my friend? Where are you getting these figures from? Absolutely bizarre. Please don't put yourself in harms way and become one of these disillusioned FOs who expects the earth from this airline. This is a good job and by in large a pretty happy place to be, but only if you accept the reality of it. 60K a year is pie in the sky, regardless of what Brookfield claim in their 'guidelines'

Line training aside, your first 500 hours on type will be at 60E per hour. That's E55.5 after training and recurrencey deduction. So E27750 at 500hrs. The average for an FO (dependent upon base) is currently anything between 600 to 750 hours per year. Not the 800-850hrs quoted by BRK!

Even in your second year paid at 80E per hour or 75.5E after deduction, 750hrs equates to E56625. Then take your 3% + vat (21.5% in IR) off for your accountant = E54561 before tax and NI. Best case presently.

Sorry to burst your bubble but that's the face of it.
Callsign Kilo is offline  
Old 22nd Apr 2010, 21:35
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I might be wrong but I have a feeling wrightflyer was talking about "proper" employment (if you will excuse the term). There are loads of schemes and various p2f/line training/hours on type/blah blah blah ..er...ahem..."jobs" out there but im guessing he was talking about the kind of job where he actually got paid for it!! Strange as that idea may seem.
If he was prepared to pay out 27500k to Ryanair or some other organisation..then i dont think he would have posed the question the way he did..maybe im wrong tho. Wrightflyer?


ps not having a go at Ryanair btw. I guess if ur a 250hr rookie, ur options are limited and im sure for some it works out well. Like i said in my first post...its difficult times for all but 10 times so for newbies.
alphaadrian is offline  
Old 22nd Apr 2010, 22:31
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....there are dark days ahead for the European and UK economy...
There is a discernible distinction between the 2. Major economies in mainland Europe are ahead in their economic cycles and are already seeing the return of minimal but steady growth. Whilst the IMF has revised world growth figures upwards.

However the UK, I am sorry to say, has not yet been through the worst of it. With an elction looming, anticipated significant public sector cuts by whoever wins, record borrowing of 890bn/over 60% of GDP it is more likely the UK will end up going to the IMF with cap hand looking for a hand out.

I would agree with alphaadrian's prediction of 2012/2013 before we see any kind of consistent and sustainable growth and with a lot longer before we see pilot recruitment reaching anywhere near the heady heights of 05-07 (if at all possible). This prediction excludes the impact of any fundamental legislative changes designed to accommodate the UK meeting its CO2 targets.

Unless you can get into RYR or find enough bucks for a self sponsored TR (risky at best and you wont make any friends for later) then the best bet is to learn another language, get out of the UK and go world walkabout...you'll have some fun and you'll do some great flying.

Good luck though.
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Old 23rd Apr 2010, 00:58
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The average for an FO (dependent upon base)
Appreciating the rest of your post, this is the main variable, i know a guy based in EDI, made 64K in his first year, longer sectors means more hours and therefore more money per sector. Being based somewhere like STN, some sectors are only 35minutes flying time. and so earnings would be lower.
Some months he makes 3K, some he makes up to 6.6K guess it depends mainly on base.
767200ER is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2010, 06:04
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2011? recovery??? so in 8 months, all our problems are resolved?

it will take 5-8 years before a 200h pilot find a job.

expect 2015 ...minimum!

what I think is the next crisis will be around 2020 with a very very slow recovery.

it' s possible that 200h pilots will never get jobs!
flyhelico is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2010, 09:04
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Just to add a little perspective to the 'doom and gloom' mongers out there.

The change to pilot retirement age was implemented in 2005, 5 years ago. This has added significantly to the fall in available jobs as the airline recruitment has, effectively, stagnated since then. Airlines live in a reactive and rarely proactive world. The incresed productivity of one of their most expensive assests has led to the negation of recruitment irrespective of adding the current economic climate on top.

Retirement is now at 65years, another 5 years away. How many pilots will continue to that is anyone guess but a lot do not want to continue flying when they need a stair lift to get up to the aircraft.

When will recruitment start? Anyones guess again but I, personally, think it will be sooner that 2015 as companies need to fill the retirment black hole that is looming. How much and when depends very much in the UK as to the state of the public purse and the willingness of private investment.

An inside rumour is that BA will be starting to look for new pilots towards the end of this year, early next year as new fleets such as the 787 and the A380 start to come online and the top end of the seniority list looks toward retirement or part time working.

Who are they looking at? Qualified DEP's, Military and selected FTO students. BA has very rarely taken low houred, self sponsored cadets.

What is of interest however is that, whilst the hold pool is empty, the books for applicants from a wide variety of airlines is chock full. Once the flow begins then the other airlines will need to fill.

So, to summarise, it's not all doom and gloom there are some glimmers ahead.
Wirbelsturm is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2010, 09:51
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I'll add a little bit of hope to this awful situation.

I'm in the CTC Cadet Scheme and currently Type Rating for easy UK on the A319. My contract is not great (I am flexicrew) so I won't be going too deep into it unless you guys want to ask me directly through Private Messages.

What I would like to add however, is that we are doing a simultaneous TR with some people from easyJet swiss, among them are some VERY experienced pilots with over 4k jet time.

There is however one person on the EZY swiss roster who has a Permanent contract based in Basel with a total time of less than 300TT.

I also know someone starting with a european cargo operator also on a permanent contract, straight out of flight school.

Jobs may not be as plentiful or as shiny as before but I think they're starting to be handed out to some newbies out there in certain cases. I can only assume it will get better with time.
Polorutz is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2010, 10:40
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Wirbelsturm

....and selected FTO students. BA has very rarely taken low houred, self sponsored cadets.
Arent almost all FTO students self-sponsored? Just not aware that BA are sponsoring any students! Did you mean modular students?

Yes, in the past BA have taken on self-sponsored integrated students from CTC, Jerez, OAA and Cabair. And it is likely these FTO's will remain their core recruiting ground for the next intake of low houred integrated students. When? Well, yes fleet change requirements may have an impact but generally its not known.
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Old 23rd Apr 2010, 10:58
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767200ER

Appreciating the rest of your post, this is the main variable, i know a guy based in EDI, made 64K in his first year, longer sectors means more hours and therefore more money per sector. Being based somewhere like STN, some sectors are only 35minutes flying time. and so earnings would be lower.
I'm not having a go, really. However the system is pretty simple and in this case the simplicity completely exposes the reality. The 'guy you know at EDI' either has a supplementary income external to BRK/RYR or alternatively he is telling a few fibs! When it comes to 'take home,' the latter is pretty common amongst a few pilots here - you will find out soon enough!!

His first year would be accounted for a long these lines. This is based on 900hrs, which unfortunately no FO that I have met in the last 3 years has ever achieved. Again, i'm not the one for pissing on anyones parade; however i do feel new fellas like yourself need to sense a bit or reality before coming here. Neither 64K or 60K will be achievable as a FO. I'm sorry mate, but there it is.

In his first year we will put the guy you know at EDI down for 100hrs at the line training rate. Might be E35 (not sure). So that's E3500.
Another 500 hrs (@55.5) = E27750 before tax, NI etc
Remaining 300 hrs (@75.5) at the higher rate = E22650

TOTAL = E53900. (Thats before the 3%+vat deduction as well)

Sector time has little to do with it. If sectors are more lengthy, you end up doing more standbys and less sectors. Rostering will issue sectors across your base by calculating the average monthly entitlement of hours per FO. The variables will be capacity, seasonal changes, number of crew per aircraft, training, annual leave and sickness, floating crews etc. This can and will alter the average entitlement of hours month by month. Hence your realisation that income will vary month by month. It has nothing to do with sector times; if anything it is more to do with luck. This is why the figure of 600-750hrs per year for FOs in the company has been touted. It is base dependant and each base will operate month by month with the variables i have just mentioned. Unfortunately EDI presently appears to be one of the quieter bases for FOs. This may improve or decline in the future; however guys that I know there all have the same problem. They would like to be busier.

I am just instilling a bit of honesty. There is little point in deceiving. Like I say, it's a good place to be; but you need to be realistic about it. People mouthing of that they earned 64K in their first year of an FO just add to the frustration of those who build up an expectancy yet who inevitably end up achieving something else entirely.

Above all, best of luck.
Callsign Kilo is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2010, 12:37
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Pilot Positive,

Perhaps I should have been a little more clear in my post.

[Thread creep]

Yes, Integrated students only coming from schools and FTO's that BA considers appropriate. Those students start on the SSP payscale and thus pay again when within BA itself. As you managed to glean from my original post BA very rarely takes modular 'self improvers'. I don't want to spark the good old 'modular vs integrated' yawn debate as the preferences are set by BA not those extolling the positive/negative virtues of both on a rumour network.

[/Thread creep]

Keep an eye on the BA website, you may well see change in the 4th Quarter of this year or the first quarter of next.

Wirbelsturm is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2010, 12:53
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I'm not having a go, really. However the system is pretty simple and in this case the simplicity completely exposes the reality. The 'guy you know at EDI' either has a supplementary income external to BRK/RYR or alternatively he is telling a few fibs! When it comes to 'take home,' the latter is pretty common amongst a few pilots here - you will find out soon enough!!

His first year would be accounted for a long these lines. This is based on 900hrs, which unfortunately no FO that I have met in the last 3 years has ever achieved. Again, i'm not the one for pissing on anyones parade; however i do feel new fellas like yourself need to sense a bit or reality before coming here. Neither 64K or 60K will be achievable as a FO. I'm sorry mate, but there it is.

In his first year we will put the guy you know at EDI down for 100hrs at the line training rate. Might be E35 (not sure). So that's E3500.
Another 500 hrs (@55.5) = E27750 before tax, NI etc
Remaining 300 hrs (@75.5) at the higher rate = E22650

TOTAL = E53900. (Thats before the 3%+vat deduction as well)

Sector time has little to do with it. If sectors are more lengthy, you end up doing more standbys and less sectors. Rostering will issue sectors across your base by calculating the average monthly entitlement of hours per FO. The variables will be capacity, seasonal changes, number of crew per aircraft, training, annual leave and sickness, floating crews etc. This can and will alter the average entitlement of hours month by month. Hence your realisation that income will vary month by month. It has nothing to do with sector times; if anything it is more to do with luck. This is why the figure of 600-750hrs per year for FOs in the company has been touted. It is base dependant and each base will operate month by month with the variables i have just mentioned. Unfortunately EDI presently appears to be one of the quieter bases for FOs. This may improve or decline in the future; however guys that I know there all have the same problem. They would like to be busier.

I am just instilling a bit of honesty. There is little point in deceiving. Like I say, it's a good place to be; but you need to be realistic about it. People mouthing of that they earned 64K in their first year of an FO just add to the frustration of those who build up an expectancy yet who inevitably end up achieving something else entirely.

Thanks mate, i do appreciate the information, i am however 20years old with no commitments in life, E53000 is more money than i would know what to do with at this stage in my life. as far as working for the company, i understand and am prepared for no hugs and kisses, just get on with flying aeroplanes

All the best!
767200ER is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2010, 14:45
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what changes??
Read my previous posts.
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Old 23rd Apr 2010, 16:32
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I had also heard the BA rumours, won't the Ibreia merger have some kind of impact on that though?
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Old 23rd Apr 2010, 16:57
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I had also heard the BA rumours, won't the Ibreia merger have some kind of impact on that though?
Nope,

The merger of the two companies is not going to impact on either airlines at the operational level. As with KLM/Air France the merger will merge the two companies office staff and procedures leaving the flying side untouched........for now!

Current aircraft orders for BA still stand however the demise of the 757/767 fleet has been slowed and there are rumours of pulling the grounded 747's at Cardiff back for the coming schedules.
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