Career change possible?

[Norman2]

Here's a question and a half.

I've had a CAA PPL for 20 years (about 400 hrs) and always managed to convince myself that it was never the right time to try to qualify as a professional pilot.

However after 22 years working in IT - I am heartily sick of working in an office and staring at a screen all day. I've always had a strong interest in aviation and regret not making it my career.

My employer is looking for volunteers to take severance and if I left I could so with about £50k after tax. But I am now 43 - is it worth considering a career as a professional pilot or not? I live near Gatwick but could move anywhere in the South of England.

Since my current job pays well, I don't want to end up wasting my time and money if I will just end up unemployed due to ageism or whatever, in the airline industry. I do have a wife and two kids so the responsibility does bear heavily.

So would someone like to offer an opinion on whether I would be able to get a decent job at my age, as a professional pilot and how much it would pay?

[Capt Pit Bull]

You might try looking back over past threads in this forum.

There is usually someone in a similar situation to yourself asking the same question every couple of months.

Many people will encourage you to go for it. I (when I'm about) tend to be the lone voice sugesting that it probably isn't a good idea.

Of course, it all depends on individual circumstances. Without going into details, it is certainly possible that you could get qualified and get a commercial job, but your age counts against you in 2 areas:

1. Your experience vs age ratio.
2. The time you've got to earn back your investment.

50 K may seem like a lot, but by the time you've got qualified, lost earnings for the time your training AND however long it takes you to get a job (an open ended proposition), you could easily find yourself in a position experienced by many other wannabees, namely broke and jobless, a couple of years down the road.

You should try and analyse exactly WHY you think becoming a professional pilot is something you want to do. Is it because of:

1.) Earning Potential.
2.) You 'just have to fly'.
3.) The lifestyle you think is associated with Flying.
4.) You want a career change.
5.) etc, etc.

You've only got to read the other forums on this site to see how badly the professional pilot community feels it is treated by the employers. I strongly advise that you are very clear about what you are buying into!

Basically, I don't think commercial aviation is to be recommended as a career. Nevertheless, I accept that for some people reason 2 comes into play.

If you're suffering terminal boredom, how about a career change within IT. Maybe you need a new employer rather than a new career.


CPB

[Kefuddle_UK]

I am a fellow IT sufferer and "Just have to fly" career changer

From the perspective of somebody purely in the wanabee camp (still doing PPL) and so very inexperienced but having asked all the questions you are asking (and more) to a reasonably wide range of aviation folk here is my synopsis:

I would say at the moment, there is no need to quit anything. You have the req'd no of hours for a CPL and a whole lot more! A modular ATPL course is pretty cheap at £3000 or less. Whilst doing the ATPL if you gather IMC and Night quals and if you can a multi rating too in prep for the CPL training. With those and an FI(R) qualification and you can possibly make a half-decent living as a PPL instructor whilst you decide how to tackle the IR or wether to build on your current FI rating. Whats that in cost? £3000(ATPL)+£1500(Night)+£1000(IMC)+£6500(CPL)+£6000(FI(R)) = £18,000. The IR will set you back at least another £14,000 but I do not belive that is required if you follow the instructor route initially. I think you are in a good position regarding the money:risk ratio as you don't need to suffer the expense of initial training and hour building

However, one thing that has dawned on me is that when I eventually am qualified and am able to make the move I WILL be earning significantly less than the £prettygood+car+pension that I am currently on. I would therefore assume that so will you. Not putting me off. Nothing drains the lifeforce more than having to do something you hate everyday whilst knowing you could do something you have dreamed of doing

Hopefully I am not talking ***********. Good luck dude

Kef.

[Norman2]

Thanks for the input guys.

I guess it's all about how risk-adverse a person is. Looking out the window at the British weather makes me wonder how it's possible to earn a living as a PPL instructor over here (and I suppose another regret for me about not having emigrated to the US years ago)!

Shame the NVQ tax relief was withdrawn due to the abuse by recreational pilots. I once took a Microlight flight from Redhill (entirely for fun) and was advised I could claim NVQ tax relief!

Getting back to the point, my motivation would really be just to spend my life doing something I enjoy and with a reasonable income. I think I have always had an aptitude for flying, but assumed my eyesight was a barrier to a class 1 medical.

Indeed the CAA regarded moderate short-sight (-3.5 d) as a reason to deny a class 1 medical, despite the FAA having no problem with it, now the JAA allows up to -5 d (uncorrected) so yet again the CAA has over-regulated and unnecessarily killed off people's ambitions.

[Maximum]

Hi Norman2....like Capt Pit Bull I tend to be one of the few who urge extreme caution when this type of question comes along.

I've made a number of posts regarding this topic - have a scroll through them.

The main problem for you is discovering what being a professional pilot is really like before you commit all your time and money to it. Well, as Capt Pit Bull advises, have a look at some of the threads on professional terms and conditions to see how disgruntled a lot of us are at the moment. And I really can't see it getting any better.

Take something you love doing, then do it too much - that's the bottom line with being an airline pilot these days.

To get a taste of what I mean, and this may seem a little crazy, but try it as an experiment - when you get some time off, set your alarm for 0430, go and scrape the ice off your car, and drive for an hour. Come back, sit at your computer, start up FS2000 or whatever, and do four sectors, say Heathrow Glasgow or Heathrow Brussels and back followed by a Nice and back. Oh, and use the autopilot - but make sure you monitor the instruments constantly. Give yourself a forty minute turnround on each - but no cheating - don't leave the room. Turn the vacuum cleaner on for that authentic turnround ambience. Read a newspaper for ten minutes if you're bored. For lunch, (usually after third sector) scoff a crappy microwave meal in five minutes flat. After your fourth sector go out to the car and drive for another hour. Now your home. Repeat for five or six days. Have two days off, and start all over again.

Now that may appear a little flippant, but I can assure you, it's actually very close to the truth. In fact, it's a hell of a lot easier. Ah, I hear you say, but I'll have a Captain with me to relieve the boredom. Well, yes, if you like him/her fine, but there will be many more times when you have nothing in common, and that makes the day even harder!

You say you're sick of sitting staring at a screen all day - erm, sounds just like my job in the air.

I'm not trying to put a downer on your dreams, just trying to give you a taste of the reality of those dreams. I've trained and flown with a number of people like yourself, and the majority of them have said to me once they've been doing the job for about a year "now I understand what you were talking about".

I've said it before in other threads, but I'd use some of that money for some really good private flying if I was you.

If you still feel you have to go for it, then good luck, you'll need it.

[Capt Pit Bull]

I'm a little confused now. Have you got a class 1 or not? Or are you thinking class 2 then professional instructor?

Whats your thing in IT. Are the skills suitable for contract work? Maybe you could take the dosh, then alternate between training and contracting.

CPB

[mpala]

I work in Information Technology, and also feel discontent about my current career. I am 26 years of age, and wish there was a route into Aviation. Unfortunately, I don't have a PPL, but I did do quite a few hours reaching solo standard but had to cut short due to financial reasons. If there was a definite route, then I could pick up where I left off.

I read in the local paper that Easyjet were offering sponsorship via a third party FTO but it turns out I'm too old for this (as they wanted people UNDER 26 years of age). Not only that, but they want academic genuises.

A long time ago, my mother gave me an article from one of the womens magazines; which interviewed a 40 year old bloke who decided at the age of 31 his career as an I.T Manager wasn't for him, and started learning to fly via a modular route which saw him accomplishing his CPL at the age of 40. He managed to get a job flying for a Cargo Carrier, as they preferred older people (who were more likely to stay put) rather than the young early 20 somethings who would use this as an hour building route to the airlines.

I don't know if this is still the case with Cargo Carriers. Does anyone in here know ?

[scroggs]

A career change to professional flying at your age can be achieved. But those who succeed are few and far between, and tend to be somewhat celebrated on these pages! Indeed, our own Capt Pprune was a late arrival to this field at 37.

However, I would echo the cautious note of the Capt Pit Bull and Maximum. The job market at the moment, and for the forseeable future, just does not favour a late entrant with little experience. That will change, in time, but it's difficult to predict when, and how long the next period of 'good times' will last.

I wouldn't burn any bridges just now. Maybe take the severance, but get yourself set up in a new IT position while you obtain the ATPL qualifications in your spare time. Look at the aviation market when you are fully qualified and only then make the decision whether to leap or not.

And, as I've often said here before, make sure your family fully understand the risks of your chosen course, and are prepared to back you for the long haul ahead - even through unemployment and potential homelessness. Believe me, the risks are huge!

[Norman2]

I have a class 2 medical.

What I was saying is that I enquired about a class 1 some years ago and was told by the CAA that my eyesight was out of range.

Now the JAA rules mean that it is in range - strangely enough my eyes are exactly the same, but of course I have lost 10 years.

The IT contract market is pretty dead at present, due to the economic situation plus the fact that the Government has both opened the door to foreign IT workers and failed to stop offshore outsourcing, so our loss is India's gain.

It will be interesting to see how the ageist recruitment policies of Easyjet (you're past it at 26!) and others will be affected by the forthcoming EU regulations which will make it illegal (and not before time) in around 2006.

For anyone in their 20's in IT - I would recommend trying to work freelance, avoid having dependants and certainly to change to a more rewarding career while you can - or else just stash the money away and retire to somewhere sunny ASAP.

Looks like I will just have to look forward to my final salary pension and perhaps some instructing after early retirement.

[davesingleton]

Norman2, although I am only 28 and (with genuine respect) have more time on my side than yourself, I too have a bit of an issue with the eyesight side of things. I recently saw my optician and showed them the standards that are acceptable for a Class 1 medical and they did say that I should be O.K.

However, I am apprehensive about paying £400 pounds for a medical but at least by doing this I will have a definitive answer as to whether or not it would be worth my while to invest in the extra training.

If I remember correctly you do not have at present a Class 1 medical certificate. If you were to take one (Class 1) and pass, then you really would have a decision to make. If you don't because of your eyesight (which unfortunately is unlikely to improve) then at least you know now to look elsewhere.

If you do pass the Class 1, say for example you had laser surgery and the CAA/JAA were O.K. with that, presuming your wife and kids were backing you then why not go for it? It sounds to me like with your background in I.T. you would have something to fall back on if a career in Aviation did not work out. If you can, go for it! You won't get there if you don't, that is certain.

I know that the people above are giving you their honest views as to what you would be better off doing, some of the facts which you really must take into consideration, but whatever path you choose to follow may I wish you the best of luck. I Hope you find what it is you are looking for.

All the best.

[Norman2]

As far as I know, my eyesight is perfectly corrected and would now be accepted for a JAA class 1 medical.

I actually had my last class 2 at the CAA medical centre at Gatwick - and this is a sort of a cheap way to get a view on your chances of a class 1 - just ask the medical officer if he thinks if you would pass or not . Clearly this won't give you the extra tests but it's a start.

I think £400 is not really a barrier - you can think of it as a healthcheck anyway and the follow-on costs are far more.

You're right in that I could probably get another job in IT (although it's notoriously ageist) - but if I was the kind of person who took major leaps of faith then I wouldn't be asking these questions now anyway.

[Kefuddle_UK]

To get a taste of what I mean, and this may seem a little crazy, but try it as an experiment - when you get some time off, set your alarm for 0430, go and scrape the ice off your car, and drive for an hour. Come back, sit at your computer, start up FS2000 or whatever, and do four sectors, say Heathrow Glasgow or Heathrow Brussels and back followed by a Nice and back. Oh, and use the autopilot - but make sure you monitor the instruments constantly. Give yourself a forty minute turnround on each - but no cheating - don't leave the room. Turn the vacuum cleaner on for that authentic turnround ambience. Read a newspaper for ten minutes if you're bored. For lunch, (usually after third sector) scoff a crappy microwave meal in five minutes flat. After your fourth sector go out to the car and drive for another hour. Now your home. Repeat for five or six days. Have two days off, and start all over again.

Excellent stuff Max, but a forty minute turnaround? I thought the pros could do it in thirty A serious question for you though: would you pack it in at the drop of a hat to take up a new career in IT then?



Dave,

I seem to remeber the CAA telling me in the pre-requisites for the Class 1 that no laser surgery is permitted. Again, maybe somebody can clarify??

Cheers,
Kef.

[carb]

it's not cricket!

Just on the age barriers, I don't know if European regulations are the ideal way to bring in some fairness and equal opportunity but certainly we need a bit of a revolution in UK aviation to bring the culture into the 21st century. In the US, no matter who you are, if you work hard you can and will eventually progress up the ranks... just about anyone can get a class 1 medical, anyone can afford to get a PPL, and from there it just takes dedication and the right aptitude to get on. Observe the flight crews milling around in major US airport terminals and you can see a full cross section of humanity, all sharing just one thing in common, a love of avaition. Contrast this with the very strange demographics of British pilots; they all even look the same.

I'll happily sign up for sponsored training if offered, at 26 I'm still eligible for some current schemes and may well succeed, but even so, having seen inside now, I have to say that the whole ab initio cadet concept, which churns out a big chunk of the workforce and crowds out other pilots, is a very objectionable socialist idea... it of course originated in the dark ages with state-owned European airlines.

Bureaucrats 'select' the people they think will make the best pilots for their firm, using whatever barmy methods they want -- ranging from reasonably sensible aptitude tests, thru to personality and handwriting assessments and, of course, age, height, weight. The one thing missing is effort and achievement. Any young Tom Dick or Harry with a few A levels can, for the cost of a stamp, apply to be fast-tracked into an airline job and if successful will be handed it all on a silver plate, yet those who wish to work hard to get on by themselves are looked down upon and may get nowhere.

Obviously this is not new, but, it seems at this moment to be getting worse and people just casually comment on it like by-standers watching an accident in progress. The only good development is the gradually relaxing class 1 medical regime. It's very sad that the pilot employment market is going to need European regulations to liberate it!

Why do airlines want to create new inexperienced pilots when there are plenty of people keen to work hard and make themselves into experienced pilots? Sure, GA in the UK is underdeveloped/overtaxed but not that bad. Apologists can argue it's about quality, airlines choosing who they want, but I think it's actually about an elite airline clique, operating in cahoots with the CAA, BAPLA, and others, preferring to oversee a closed-shop of self-perpetuating clones rather than open the doors to the fresh air of diversity.

[Maximum]

Excellent stuff Max, but a forty minute turnaround? I thought the pros could do it in thirty A serious question for you though: would you pack it in at the drop of a hat to take up a new career in IT then?

Thirty minutes? Twenty minutes no problem.

As for me taking up a career in IT, I don't think they'd have me!

Seriously though, with all due respect I think your question's a wee bit naughty - I have no desire to go anywhere near a career in IT - never did have, never will have. However, I presume in your own case you did make a conscious decision to go down this route? (Albeit for all I know it was not your first choice). So a bit of a non sequiter IMHO.

I tell you what I would pack it in for though - my own business, lots of dosh, and the freedom to fly for my own pleasure when and where I want.

[davesingleton]

Norman2, if your sight is fine then to be honest with you I would go for it! I am aware of you family situation but suppose you succeed? Look at it that way. If you don't at least you had a go.

Kefuddle, I think (and please correct me if needed) that on the CAA Medical website that they do not state that refactory surgery prohibits you from gaining a Class 1 medical? I think that the CAA are rather ambiguous (if that is how you spell it) on the subject of refractory surgery. It seems to me that they are sitting on the proverbial fence.

All I know is that my uncorrected vision is within the CAA standards and that my corrected vision is virtually perfect.

As regards refractory surgery, perhapsthe CAA/JAA could clear this up once and for all?

Good look to all wannabees.

[Kefuddle_UK]

Max,

Seriously though, with all due respect I think your question's a wee bit naughty - I have no desire to go anywhere near a career in IT - never did have, never will have. However, I presume in your own case you did make a conscious decision to go down this route? (Albeit for all I know it was not your first choice). So a bit of a non sequiter IMHO.

Hehe I think you have neatly side-stepped the 'spirit' of my question but what the hell Au contraire! IT was my first choice of career. Indeed both my Mum and Dad met whilst working at IBM!

But what is choice when there are few options. Being a late developer, it wasn't until after a few years racing around London on motorbikes delivering letters that I had to opportunity to 'settle down'. If I appreciated my ability earlier I would have made an attempt to join the RAF, but I just simply assumed it was not feasible. Only now do I have the resources to persue what I previously considered out of reach. Technically then IT is my first choice, given what I saw as my options at the time

Dave,

OK mate. I think I read it on the form they send you when you book your appointment but I can't be sure as I no longer have that paperwork.

Cheers chaps,
Kef.

[boofta]

Dear Norman2
As you have specified that you are unwilling to move beyond a geographical location in order to fly I believe you have answered
your own question.
If you want to pursue a flying career you must be prepared to
move, really move, around the world, not around southern UK.
You also have a family to support, aviation does not feed a
family at the beginning, maybe a small dog but not a family.
My humble suggestion is some casual instructing or similar even
lecturing ground school courses. This would get you involved in
aviation and continue to feed your family, giving you contacts and
more knowledge of possible job opportunities. Best of luck

[mpala]

I think the age barrier is caused by the fact that airline pilots retire at 55 years of age. For sponsorship (whether full, partial, or simply a 737 rating for a new ATPL'er), an airline has to pay x thousands and within <two years, they have a pilot who they will theoretically keep until they are 55.

A 28 year old cadet will become a FO at the age of 30 and will have 25 years potential service.

A 20 year old will become a FO at the age of 22 and will have 33 years potential service, thereby delivering a greater return for the original outlay.

Can someone clarify how easy it is to get into a Cargo Airline now at a late age ? A Cargo Airline won't benefit from the above equation as a young pilot is inevitably going to ditch them for a higher paid airline job at the earliest opportunity. An older person doesn't have the luxury of doing this and hence would be more likely to serve more years service in a Cargo Carrier.

[Kefuddle_UK]

Retirement for single crew is 60 yrs, 65 yrs for multi crew. BA retires its at 55 yrs. Some BA guys go on to fly for another 5 yrs in other airlines before retiring proper. Nearly all other airlines retire crew at 60 yrs. I belive there is EU legislation in the works to up the single crew retirement age up to 63 yrs, but this maybe just one of those rumours.

[davesingleton]

Norman2 and Kef,

I am sure that what I read about refractory surgery is what I saw on the CAA website, I think that if you had surgery over a year ago that theywould look at your case on its merits (although they virtually say that eyes that have been lasered are 5h1te).

Yet again, they could show more clarity on the subject. Speaking for myself, I do not need corrective surgery at the moment. But if I needed it in the future, what would happen to the Class 1? Anybody?

P.S. The rest of my village could do with some new DNA.