Flight Training in the U.S.A.
Right - first off everyone cool down just a little.
There are some very valid points in this thread from all contributors.
However, be very careful in identifying specific schools of whom you may have worked for or attended in the past. If legal action is taken we will confirm your details to avoid prosecution ourselves.
Post with restraint and in a way that does not wilfully damage any particular one business. The writs will fly elsewise.
It seems people ARE being turned back without Visas which you can't currently get. Therefore it seems that US flying training for UK residents is facing huge difficulties.
How this is resolved in the future is anyones guess.
Cheers
WWW
There are some very valid points in this thread from all contributors.
However, be very careful in identifying specific schools of whom you may have worked for or attended in the past. If legal action is taken we will confirm your details to avoid prosecution ourselves.
Post with restraint and in a way that does not wilfully damage any particular one business. The writs will fly elsewise.
It seems people ARE being turned back without Visas which you can't currently get. Therefore it seems that US flying training for UK residents is facing huge difficulties.
How this is resolved in the future is anyones guess.
Cheers
WWW
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WWW - you are doing it again.
Both lines of that are incorrect - there are three schools, in Florida alone, that can legally issue visas for flight training.
You are protecting the schools that are telling deliberate lies to the students - just to ensnare them as students. I don't see a single word on this thread that could be even remotely construed as being libelous towards any one of the schools that are doing it.
Take a look at the messages about Britannia -- they have willfully closed their doors and ceased trading to protect themselves and the students from any potential harm from the Authorities. They have offered to refund (at least, in part) costs that were accrued by students who were turned back by INS at the airport of intended arrival.
Reports, from the office of the FAA, now tell that Browns seaplane base - which has been a haven to hundreds of Brits adding float plane ratings to their licence - is also on the brink....all due to INS. They, however, are not taking risks with the reputation and finances of potential customers.
There are legal places to easily attend.....and the pages of pprune should be grateful for the advice offered to it's subscribers.
Even the UK CAA are back on board, and have set up a system which will - once again - allow UK licensed pilots to validate their ICAO licences for flight in the United States.
Granted "September 11th" has had a hideous effect on flight training - right across the board - but if the relevant schools had taken the steps to do their job professionally and legally, then there would not be a problem.
All these messages are saying is "Go to a school that can issue a visa - and there are at least three, in Florida alone"
It seems people ARE being turned back without Visas which you can't currently get. Therefore it seems that US flying training for UK residents is facing huge difficulties.
You are protecting the schools that are telling deliberate lies to the students - just to ensnare them as students. I don't see a single word on this thread that could be even remotely construed as being libelous towards any one of the schools that are doing it.
Take a look at the messages about Britannia -- they have willfully closed their doors and ceased trading to protect themselves and the students from any potential harm from the Authorities. They have offered to refund (at least, in part) costs that were accrued by students who were turned back by INS at the airport of intended arrival.
Reports, from the office of the FAA, now tell that Browns seaplane base - which has been a haven to hundreds of Brits adding float plane ratings to their licence - is also on the brink....all due to INS. They, however, are not taking risks with the reputation and finances of potential customers.
There are legal places to easily attend.....and the pages of pprune should be grateful for the advice offered to it's subscribers.
Even the UK CAA are back on board, and have set up a system which will - once again - allow UK licensed pilots to validate their ICAO licences for flight in the United States.
Granted "September 11th" has had a hideous effect on flight training - right across the board - but if the relevant schools had taken the steps to do their job professionally and legally, then there would not be a problem.
All these messages are saying is "Go to a school that can issue a visa - and there are at least three, in Florida alone"
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Time To Fly
The school I was going to was Britannia in winter haven, however it's foreign training operation closes at the end of October as a result of the changes to the rules, so you won't be able to go there anyway.
To be honest I don't believe they were intentionally misleading me, there are three reasons for this:
Firstly their advice was based on information from the US State Dept. website, which semed to say that if you were undertaking recreational training (I was just going for a PPL) for less than a certain number of hours a week you didn't need a visa. (When I got back I checked and the website did indeed say this, with no caveat about flight training or whatever).
Secondly, the partner that I was dealing with offered to pay a contribution towards my training with another school (he reccommended Naples) out of his own pocket.
Thirdly, as I said at the top of this post they are voluntarily closing down their operation, rather than doing as some other schools seem to be doing (based on posts within this thread) which is to try and circumvent the INS rules.
They would also seem to be held in very high regard by the training fraternity over there and here as can be seen by the responses to their announcment on PPRUNE and gonewests message which he must have been typing at the same time I typed mine
The school I was going to was Britannia in winter haven, however it's foreign training operation closes at the end of October as a result of the changes to the rules, so you won't be able to go there anyway.
To be honest I don't believe they were intentionally misleading me, there are three reasons for this:
Firstly their advice was based on information from the US State Dept. website, which semed to say that if you were undertaking recreational training (I was just going for a PPL) for less than a certain number of hours a week you didn't need a visa. (When I got back I checked and the website did indeed say this, with no caveat about flight training or whatever).
Secondly, the partner that I was dealing with offered to pay a contribution towards my training with another school (he reccommended Naples) out of his own pocket.
Thirdly, as I said at the top of this post they are voluntarily closing down their operation, rather than doing as some other schools seem to be doing (based on posts within this thread) which is to try and circumvent the INS rules.
They would also seem to be held in very high regard by the training fraternity over there and here as can be seen by the responses to their announcment on PPRUNE and gonewests message which he must have been typing at the same time I typed mine
Last edited by AndyGB; 17th Oct 2002 at 12:14.
Gonewest - some people are being turned away by the INS from the UK and they cannot seem to get visas - I have spoken to one this morning.
I am not saying it is impossible. Significant research is required by the student prior to signing up is all we can safely say.
WWW
I am not saying it is impossible. Significant research is required by the student prior to signing up is all we can safely say.
WWW
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WWW
I would like to clarify your statement-
The most common reasons that students are denied entry to the US are:
1. Criminal history
2. Affiliation with undesirable groups
3. Flight risks - ie use Visa as a way to get in and stay in the US
4. Previous entry denied for abusing the system
5. Not being able to provide evidence of funds required for the course of training.
An example of number 3 is a student who obtained an M1 visa to go to a flight school in California. For the duration of the visa (1 year) the student obtained a mere 91 flight hours and no pilot certificates. This is what the US Embassy are trying to avoid. The student enters the country to study and then abuses the sytem. What was the student doing for the year?
This same student just applied for another M1 visa and was denied. The student does not comprehend why
We all assume that this is just the US, however, have you ever heard the experiences of people trying to get in the UK - pretty much the same!
The Visa process is worth the little effort; it gets you training in a great environment, great weather for continuity, and the training you require in a minimum amount of flight time and cost.
The most common reasons that students are denied entry to the US are:
1. Criminal history
2. Affiliation with undesirable groups
3. Flight risks - ie use Visa as a way to get in and stay in the US
4. Previous entry denied for abusing the system
5. Not being able to provide evidence of funds required for the course of training.
An example of number 3 is a student who obtained an M1 visa to go to a flight school in California. For the duration of the visa (1 year) the student obtained a mere 91 flight hours and no pilot certificates. This is what the US Embassy are trying to avoid. The student enters the country to study and then abuses the sytem. What was the student doing for the year?
This same student just applied for another M1 visa and was denied. The student does not comprehend why
We all assume that this is just the US, however, have you ever heard the experiences of people trying to get in the UK - pretty much the same!
The Visa process is worth the little effort; it gets you training in a great environment, great weather for continuity, and the training you require in a minimum amount of flight time and cost.
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WWW
Now this time I agree 100% - I see no reason why a school should require a deposit before arrival and no reason why a student should be commited to any school before they have "all their ducks in a row" - and this obviously includes the correct visa.
What I didn't like was the statement "Visas which you can't currently get." and the inference that flying training in the USA for UK citizens was the subject of "huge difficulties".
Like it or not, you have a reputation for slagging off training in the USA (and, to an extent, I agree with you - but, despite being involved in it, there is nothing I can do to improve it), and this is how I read your message. If I am mistaken in my belief that you were using your moderator position to simply crticise USA training then I apologise - but visas are available (on the most part) from the schools that are approved.
I am personally aware - first hand experience - with (I think) every JAA approved school in Florida, except one on the beach near Daytona, that we are not even allowed to mention.
Three of them are visa approved - two of them I would recomend for PPL training, the other one for Commercial and FIC training (at the moment).
I am also being approached, for assistance and guidance, by two other Florida schools that are in the process of applying for JAA approval and visa approval - but it will be an extremely lengthy, and costly, job for them.
Whilst on the subject - if I were a JAA PPL Wanabee, and knew what I know about training - I would stay in the UK and do the PPL over as many months as it takes...despite the costs and bad weather.....but for those in a rush (for whatever reason) - or those on a budget, then the USA training market has the goods to offer....and remember, they have been individually approved by the UK CAA - to an extent far greater than any school in the UK has.
Significant research is required by the student prior to signing up...
What I didn't like was the statement "Visas which you can't currently get." and the inference that flying training in the USA for UK citizens was the subject of "huge difficulties".
Like it or not, you have a reputation for slagging off training in the USA (and, to an extent, I agree with you - but, despite being involved in it, there is nothing I can do to improve it), and this is how I read your message. If I am mistaken in my belief that you were using your moderator position to simply crticise USA training then I apologise - but visas are available (on the most part) from the schools that are approved.
I am personally aware - first hand experience - with (I think) every JAA approved school in Florida, except one on the beach near Daytona, that we are not even allowed to mention.
Three of them are visa approved - two of them I would recomend for PPL training, the other one for Commercial and FIC training (at the moment).
I am also being approached, for assistance and guidance, by two other Florida schools that are in the process of applying for JAA approval and visa approval - but it will be an extremely lengthy, and costly, job for them.
Whilst on the subject - if I were a JAA PPL Wanabee, and knew what I know about training - I would stay in the UK and do the PPL over as many months as it takes...despite the costs and bad weather.....but for those in a rush (for whatever reason) - or those on a budget, then the USA training market has the goods to offer....and remember, they have been individually approved by the UK CAA - to an extent far greater than any school in the UK has.
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yeah er gwest
Quote
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------.....but for those in a rush (for whatever reason) - or those on a budget, then the USA training market has the goods to offer....and remember, they have been individually approved by the UK CAA - to an extent far greater than any school in the UK has.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your last line is a bit rash to say the least me o`l mucker!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------.....but for those in a rush (for whatever reason) - or those on a budget, then the USA training market has the goods to offer....and remember, they have been individually approved by the UK CAA - to an extent far greater than any school in the UK has.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your last line is a bit rash to say the least me o`l mucker!
Last edited by apple; 19th Oct 2002 at 10:22.
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It is??
How many of the PPL level schools in the UK have had their staff vetted for experience and currency of ratings and medicals; have had their financial stability and background checked into; have had to supply a list of airfields that are to be visited (or not visited) during a PPL course; have had each individual aircraft inspected by a CAA inspector; have had to have pilot order books, flying orders and flight training manuals inspected; have had to show proof of following a particular training syllabus; have had their offices and classrooms inspected; have had their toilets inspected; have had their maintenance records inspected....the list goes on.....and it repeats every year.
Don't get me wrong here - I think it is a good thing, indeed a very good thing (even though the annual bill for inspections and approval is around £2,000)......but, over the years, I have visited possibly 90% of the schools outside the M25 circle and there were many that would not have passed the inspections that the JAA schools in the USA have to comply with.
How many of the PPL level schools in the UK have had their staff vetted for experience and currency of ratings and medicals; have had their financial stability and background checked into; have had to supply a list of airfields that are to be visited (or not visited) during a PPL course; have had each individual aircraft inspected by a CAA inspector; have had to have pilot order books, flying orders and flight training manuals inspected; have had to show proof of following a particular training syllabus; have had their offices and classrooms inspected; have had their toilets inspected; have had their maintenance records inspected....the list goes on.....and it repeats every year.
Don't get me wrong here - I think it is a good thing, indeed a very good thing (even though the annual bill for inspections and approval is around £2,000)......but, over the years, I have visited possibly 90% of the schools outside the M25 circle and there were many that would not have passed the inspections that the JAA schools in the USA have to comply with.
1) I don't mindlessly slag off basic training in the US. I have recommended it to dozens of people who email me. It has been a tried and trusted route for many many people, some of them the people behind this BB! I *have* over the years listed the Cons of going stateside. Thats important because a lot of Wannabes see the sticker price only and don't know any of the pitfalls or hazards.
2) GoneWest - you are protecting your own commercial interests. I think you should consider that this forum has given more publicity and clarity into how to go about training in the US than any other medium I can think of. The pros, the cons, the insider tips and true life stories. The dirty laundry the tales of success and adventures. All have been aired on this forum over the years at great length.
3) I am sure that people from the UK CAN train in the US with the appropriate Visas and diligence. But the fact remains some people have cocked this up, the situation has been fluid and confusing and some schools have simply stopped offering training to non-US citizens. Stating this is not the "bash" US flight training. Its just stating the obvious.
Cheers
WWW
2) GoneWest - you are protecting your own commercial interests. I think you should consider that this forum has given more publicity and clarity into how to go about training in the US than any other medium I can think of. The pros, the cons, the insider tips and true life stories. The dirty laundry the tales of success and adventures. All have been aired on this forum over the years at great length.
3) I am sure that people from the UK CAN train in the US with the appropriate Visas and diligence. But the fact remains some people have cocked this up, the situation has been fluid and confusing and some schools have simply stopped offering training to non-US citizens. Stating this is not the "bash" US flight training. Its just stating the obvious.
Cheers
WWW
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WWW - (can we have an emoticon for "no daggers drawn here", please?).
I have to counter with - cut/past from my earlier posting...
I fail to see how recommending that the JAA Wannabe should train in the UK is "protecting my own commercial interests" when I live and work (for MY OWN COMPANY) in the United States.
I'm not even convinced that I have a personal commercial interest....so in answer to Barry's question (on the other thread) about personal agendas.....
From a totally personal and mercenary point of view, I don't give a stuff where anybody trains - or even if they do train - what I do care about, however, is the fact that some schools in the USA are prepared to gamble with the finances and reputation of the potential student.
It seriously p****s me off when I see students being shafted by the schools - they come out here with a dream in mind. They want that PPL that they have (probably) saved and struggled for.
There are three schools out here that have gone to the time, trouble and serious expense of getting visa approval - the others have not, and now, thanks to 9/11, they are hurting. But what do they do about it?? Britannia said that they couldn't 'hand on heart' encourage students to come across and risk "running the gauntlet" at the Immigration counter - so they ceased trading and closed the business, they were alive and well - very busy - but couldn't do it.
The other schools, however, don't care. They will happily recommend to you that you cross the Atlantic and attempt to lie your way into the Country if they meet an INS officer that is doing his or her job properly.
Dozens of students have been turned back from Orlando - at least one was prevented from boarding at Gatwick - passengers have reported to cabin crew that somebody was reading a flight training manual (Trevor Thom) on an airliner, the crew reported it to INS, and the student was on the same aircraft back across the Atlantic. Now, of course, he was some £300 or so poorer, had lost his dream about learning to fly, had probably just trashed three weeks leave from work, had a big stamp in his passport saying "Entry To USA Refused" and had been arrested by Immigration - had fingerprints taken, had mug shots taken, and now has a police record.
What difference does it make to the schools?? NOTHING!! They haven't lost a thing - they may as well encourage you to come across the Atlantic. If you get through, all well and good, they will get 40 to 50 hours of flying out of you and make a few hundred extra dollars on the side - if you get turned back - so what...they haven't lost anything. They may not make such a big profit at the end of the year - but they'll get over it.
The big Pprune battle?? Probably Captain Richard at Naples (visa approved) and Captain Fisher (not visa approved). Each one of them seems to want nasty things to happen to the other (there is a lot more going on in the training World than meets the pages of pprune).
Naples have written great postings (with Danny's approval) about the requirement for visas - every time Fisher gets one through the system you get new posts about it. Fisher just wants to rub Captain Richards nose in it!! (as the saying goes). I mean, please, Father Dougal - apparently doesn't subscribe to Pprune at home (if he does, why change the name when posting about not needing a visa??). He gets into the USA, goes to his commercial school (there is only EFT and IFTA doing commercial training - although OFT is approved for it) and then decides - presumably of his own accord - to register to a bulletin board, wait the few days for "clearance from Danny" and then post a message saying that nobody needs a visa to train here?? Oh, come on - give us some credit. Primed, or what?? And you then accuse ME of protecting a commercial interest.
For Father Dougal I am truly pleased that he got through the system - not because he shouldn't have, not because I hate the red tape, not because I have a commercial interest to protect, not because I want Captain Fisher to stay in work, not for anything other than 'Dougal' has spent a lot of time and money in getting to Florida to do his training....and I'm glad he will get away with it.
As I've said a few times before that Captain Fisher does have a very high respect from the examiners who go there to carry out the CPL flight tests - let me expand on that a bit...the examiners have a very high regard for the standard of training given (which is a different thing).
All I really care about is the student not being ripped off. I agree 100% with BEagle about the standards of US training - this is nothing to do with the FAA/JAA "who best" battle - it's just that the two Countries have different ways of looking at things and I'm pretty sure that Joe Public coming over the pond wants to learn to fly a UK AEROPLANE IN UK AIRSPACE - but nobody - at PPL level - will teach him that. Every school here - with the probable exception of Comair in Sanford (with which I have NOTHING to do - but I have visited for a "look round") attempt to teach in any way, shape, or form for the JAA PPL. They all teach FAA.
Entry number 1 in the log book. Excercise 1 to 10. Duration 1 hr 10 minutes. Entry 2 - touch and goes. Entry 3 - night cross country. Entry 4 - Basic Instrument Flying duration 1hr - "hood time", 1 hour. What b******s.
Saw one recently, student had an aircraft come to collect him from the airport of entry - journey to school was a night flight (first flight in a light aircraft) - then, at the end of the course, tried to claim it as part of the five hours towards a night qualification.
Despite the proliferation of the Internet - I have yet to see anybody looking at a Lapform (214 or 215). There are schools here with a full copy of the ANO, AIP and AIC's - untouched. Bang up to date - never been read. Instructors don't know what it is or how to read it.....why?? There isn't really any groundschool out here - it's just read your Trevor Thom and get on with it - the bl**dy confuser will get you through the writtens - you don't actually need to know this stuff - just learn the answers.
Naples is the only place I know that tries to get some semblance of order with the European R/T (at the moment) - of course there are R/T examiners out here, but they have a very difficult time with the candidates having been taught to repeat every single word said by ATC- and "request a frequnecy change"....and I feel sorry for them (the examiners, that is).
Back to BEagle - his main argument over the years I've been reading Pprune seems to be "basic attitude flying" - the pilots out here just don't have a clue about it. I was working with an FAA examiner last week - he was giving a flight safety lecture to a group of pilots and said "since the FAA encouraged integrated training" (meaning using instrument indications to support visual references when VFR) "nobody ever looks out of the window anymore".
I had an opportunity to fly with a JAA student over here a few months ago - cruising along merrily in his Cessan 150 - at 65 knots. Nose high in the sky, couldn't see where he was going. Guy was quite happy with this - he was, after all, straight and level. I asked what speed "the book" said for S&L, covered the ASI, lowered the nose to the right place and uncovered the ASI - the look on the guys face when he saw the correct speed was amazing. Did it again with climb and glide - every one, bang on - student was aghast...."How did you do that??"
Was speaking to a flight test candidate recently, who had made his own decision to abandon a flight test in a twin because of an excessive mag drop on one engine (outside limits - only just, but outside limits). He brought the aircraft back from the run-up point and snagged it. Two engineers spent about an hour changing plugs, doing ground runs etc. before deciding it was still outside limits and would need deeper research. Candidate declared to his examiner "test abandoned" - examiner agreed. Five minutes later, manager of flight school was talking to examiner saying "oh, it's probably the gauge - the left mag is always a bigger drop than the right one - the mag drop is smooth, no "rough running" - it'll be alright, it doesn't need fixing - now go off and fly it (not forgetting it was going to assymetric circuits and single engine go-around).
I've also said before, that I work with the FAA - doing the equivalent of CAA Safety Meetings (those nocturnal meetings, that those who care, attend in the pub for two hours - brilliant night out, highly recommended). I probably spend in the region of US$4,000 in a year out of my own pocket - all to promote flight safety (yes, it's tax deductible) - and none of it is in the pub.
There are two schools out here that are trying to do it right - for PPL level - and two others that DO do it right for CPL level and FIC work....and I am NOT employed by any of them. Three of those four are visa approved - the rest just want you to risk your money and police record on beating the system and going to them for training. If anybody wants guidance as to where I would recommend for training (having seen ALL the schools [though VERY limited on the one we are not allowed to mention] that are doing [or have done] JAA training in Florida) send me an e-mail. Despite the accusation that I'm trying to protect my own commercial interests, what I really care about is that YOU - the paying customer - get what YOU want, at the right price, no hidden extras that you were not told about when speaking to "marketing" and that you ENJOY the course - even before you board the aircraft in the UK to bring you out here.
PS - "Notice" - I work for myself. I have my own Company. I am not employed by any one of the flight schools. I hold two ATPL's - one for each side of the Atlantic Ocean....and do not need to do any instruction.
I have to counter with - cut/past from my earlier posting...
Whilst on the subject - if I were a JAA PPL Wanabee, and knew what I know about training - I would stay in the UK and do the PPL over as many months as it takes...despite the costs and bad weather.....but for those in a rush (for whatever reason) - or those on a budget, then the USA training market has the goods to offer....and remember, they have been individually approved by the UK CAA - to an extent far greater than any school in the UK has.
I'm not even convinced that I have a personal commercial interest....so in answer to Barry's question (on the other thread) about personal agendas.....
From a totally personal and mercenary point of view, I don't give a stuff where anybody trains - or even if they do train - what I do care about, however, is the fact that some schools in the USA are prepared to gamble with the finances and reputation of the potential student.
It seriously p****s me off when I see students being shafted by the schools - they come out here with a dream in mind. They want that PPL that they have (probably) saved and struggled for.
There are three schools out here that have gone to the time, trouble and serious expense of getting visa approval - the others have not, and now, thanks to 9/11, they are hurting. But what do they do about it?? Britannia said that they couldn't 'hand on heart' encourage students to come across and risk "running the gauntlet" at the Immigration counter - so they ceased trading and closed the business, they were alive and well - very busy - but couldn't do it.
The other schools, however, don't care. They will happily recommend to you that you cross the Atlantic and attempt to lie your way into the Country if they meet an INS officer that is doing his or her job properly.
Dozens of students have been turned back from Orlando - at least one was prevented from boarding at Gatwick - passengers have reported to cabin crew that somebody was reading a flight training manual (Trevor Thom) on an airliner, the crew reported it to INS, and the student was on the same aircraft back across the Atlantic. Now, of course, he was some £300 or so poorer, had lost his dream about learning to fly, had probably just trashed three weeks leave from work, had a big stamp in his passport saying "Entry To USA Refused" and had been arrested by Immigration - had fingerprints taken, had mug shots taken, and now has a police record.
What difference does it make to the schools?? NOTHING!! They haven't lost a thing - they may as well encourage you to come across the Atlantic. If you get through, all well and good, they will get 40 to 50 hours of flying out of you and make a few hundred extra dollars on the side - if you get turned back - so what...they haven't lost anything. They may not make such a big profit at the end of the year - but they'll get over it.
The big Pprune battle?? Probably Captain Richard at Naples (visa approved) and Captain Fisher (not visa approved). Each one of them seems to want nasty things to happen to the other (there is a lot more going on in the training World than meets the pages of pprune).
Naples have written great postings (with Danny's approval) about the requirement for visas - every time Fisher gets one through the system you get new posts about it. Fisher just wants to rub Captain Richards nose in it!! (as the saying goes). I mean, please, Father Dougal - apparently doesn't subscribe to Pprune at home (if he does, why change the name when posting about not needing a visa??). He gets into the USA, goes to his commercial school (there is only EFT and IFTA doing commercial training - although OFT is approved for it) and then decides - presumably of his own accord - to register to a bulletin board, wait the few days for "clearance from Danny" and then post a message saying that nobody needs a visa to train here?? Oh, come on - give us some credit. Primed, or what?? And you then accuse ME of protecting a commercial interest.
For Father Dougal I am truly pleased that he got through the system - not because he shouldn't have, not because I hate the red tape, not because I have a commercial interest to protect, not because I want Captain Fisher to stay in work, not for anything other than 'Dougal' has spent a lot of time and money in getting to Florida to do his training....and I'm glad he will get away with it.
As I've said a few times before that Captain Fisher does have a very high respect from the examiners who go there to carry out the CPL flight tests - let me expand on that a bit...the examiners have a very high regard for the standard of training given (which is a different thing).
All I really care about is the student not being ripped off. I agree 100% with BEagle about the standards of US training - this is nothing to do with the FAA/JAA "who best" battle - it's just that the two Countries have different ways of looking at things and I'm pretty sure that Joe Public coming over the pond wants to learn to fly a UK AEROPLANE IN UK AIRSPACE - but nobody - at PPL level - will teach him that. Every school here - with the probable exception of Comair in Sanford (with which I have NOTHING to do - but I have visited for a "look round") attempt to teach in any way, shape, or form for the JAA PPL. They all teach FAA.
Entry number 1 in the log book. Excercise 1 to 10. Duration 1 hr 10 minutes. Entry 2 - touch and goes. Entry 3 - night cross country. Entry 4 - Basic Instrument Flying duration 1hr - "hood time", 1 hour. What b******s.
Saw one recently, student had an aircraft come to collect him from the airport of entry - journey to school was a night flight (first flight in a light aircraft) - then, at the end of the course, tried to claim it as part of the five hours towards a night qualification.
Despite the proliferation of the Internet - I have yet to see anybody looking at a Lapform (214 or 215). There are schools here with a full copy of the ANO, AIP and AIC's - untouched. Bang up to date - never been read. Instructors don't know what it is or how to read it.....why?? There isn't really any groundschool out here - it's just read your Trevor Thom and get on with it - the bl**dy confuser will get you through the writtens - you don't actually need to know this stuff - just learn the answers.
Naples is the only place I know that tries to get some semblance of order with the European R/T (at the moment) - of course there are R/T examiners out here, but they have a very difficult time with the candidates having been taught to repeat every single word said by ATC- and "request a frequnecy change"....and I feel sorry for them (the examiners, that is).
Back to BEagle - his main argument over the years I've been reading Pprune seems to be "basic attitude flying" - the pilots out here just don't have a clue about it. I was working with an FAA examiner last week - he was giving a flight safety lecture to a group of pilots and said "since the FAA encouraged integrated training" (meaning using instrument indications to support visual references when VFR) "nobody ever looks out of the window anymore".
I had an opportunity to fly with a JAA student over here a few months ago - cruising along merrily in his Cessan 150 - at 65 knots. Nose high in the sky, couldn't see where he was going. Guy was quite happy with this - he was, after all, straight and level. I asked what speed "the book" said for S&L, covered the ASI, lowered the nose to the right place and uncovered the ASI - the look on the guys face when he saw the correct speed was amazing. Did it again with climb and glide - every one, bang on - student was aghast...."How did you do that??"
Was speaking to a flight test candidate recently, who had made his own decision to abandon a flight test in a twin because of an excessive mag drop on one engine (outside limits - only just, but outside limits). He brought the aircraft back from the run-up point and snagged it. Two engineers spent about an hour changing plugs, doing ground runs etc. before deciding it was still outside limits and would need deeper research. Candidate declared to his examiner "test abandoned" - examiner agreed. Five minutes later, manager of flight school was talking to examiner saying "oh, it's probably the gauge - the left mag is always a bigger drop than the right one - the mag drop is smooth, no "rough running" - it'll be alright, it doesn't need fixing - now go off and fly it (not forgetting it was going to assymetric circuits and single engine go-around).
I've also said before, that I work with the FAA - doing the equivalent of CAA Safety Meetings (those nocturnal meetings, that those who care, attend in the pub for two hours - brilliant night out, highly recommended). I probably spend in the region of US$4,000 in a year out of my own pocket - all to promote flight safety (yes, it's tax deductible) - and none of it is in the pub.
There are two schools out here that are trying to do it right - for PPL level - and two others that DO do it right for CPL level and FIC work....and I am NOT employed by any of them. Three of those four are visa approved - the rest just want you to risk your money and police record on beating the system and going to them for training. If anybody wants guidance as to where I would recommend for training (having seen ALL the schools [though VERY limited on the one we are not allowed to mention] that are doing [or have done] JAA training in Florida) send me an e-mail. Despite the accusation that I'm trying to protect my own commercial interests, what I really care about is that YOU - the paying customer - get what YOU want, at the right price, no hidden extras that you were not told about when speaking to "marketing" and that you ENJOY the course - even before you board the aircraft in the UK to bring you out here.
PS - "Notice" - I work for myself. I have my own Company. I am not employed by any one of the flight schools. I hold two ATPL's - one for each side of the Atlantic Ocean....and do not need to do any instruction.
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Visa at last.
Just got my visa paperwork through from OFT so I'm off to see the boys the third week of November, didn't seem like that much of a hassle now they have their approval. Ahy how anybody who was there last time I was "Me and you know who will be you know where" see you there??
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Hey there D.W.,
I was wondering what visa OFT issued? I spoke to them recently, when I was researching schools and they did not have a visa to offer. I just want to make sure I do not get suckered and make a mistake like I almost did with IFTA.
Maybe I am looking too far into this, but I did see that you just made your PPRuNe account today on 30th October 2002 at 09:44. The other thing I do not understand is you are posting like you are a long time poster on PPRuNe and your only posts were in the threads about flying in florida, all saying the same thing.
TTF
I was wondering what visa OFT issued? I spoke to them recently, when I was researching schools and they did not have a visa to offer. I just want to make sure I do not get suckered and make a mistake like I almost did with IFTA.
Maybe I am looking too far into this, but I did see that you just made your PPRuNe account today on 30th October 2002 at 09:44. The other thing I do not understand is you are posting like you are a long time poster on PPRuNe and your only posts were in the threads about flying in florida, all saying the same thing.
TTF
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Good posts
I will addd my penniesworth!!!
I have been to the states 5 times to fly and as yet not had a problem, UNTIL i flew out of a supposed proffesional school.
Not wishing to name this school, "unless you look at old threads", it would become obvious. After Sept 11th i went to this school, No visa required, pass rate was supposed to be on the high side, they didnt tell you it was nearly all partail passes, no planning and they were outside of the 6:1 instructor / student ratio, this was the CAA extra checked JAA flight school. They are an unscrupulous school as is the owner, all i will say to the wannabees is work the costs out, it is not that much cheaper!!!!
Now with a mere 300 hrs and commerical etc, i have seen some flight schools, I have to say until that point i had not been to a bad one, which from most peoples experience is quite a relief.
One of the best i had been to was a US flight school, teaching FAA liscences. I only went there for some Instrument brush up and some night experience, but the time and effort put into a mere 9hrs that i flew there you would have thought i was parting with 000's.
In the UK i have found and can honestly say that all the instructors i have flown with, and that includes the ones passing through, have been professional.
Gonewest, the US school i attended that provided JAA training, was in my view, arrogant, unorganised, and was certainly on the poorer side of any flight school i have attended.
I think it is fair to say, that there are good and bad in all industries, its just in this one the unfortunate tend to lose out with skills they need and money they earned to the unscrupulous.
P.S. Go west do you hire multis at a good rate, and where r u?
Good thread though
I have been to the states 5 times to fly and as yet not had a problem, UNTIL i flew out of a supposed proffesional school.
Not wishing to name this school, "unless you look at old threads", it would become obvious. After Sept 11th i went to this school, No visa required, pass rate was supposed to be on the high side, they didnt tell you it was nearly all partail passes, no planning and they were outside of the 6:1 instructor / student ratio, this was the CAA extra checked JAA flight school. They are an unscrupulous school as is the owner, all i will say to the wannabees is work the costs out, it is not that much cheaper!!!!
Now with a mere 300 hrs and commerical etc, i have seen some flight schools, I have to say until that point i had not been to a bad one, which from most peoples experience is quite a relief.
One of the best i had been to was a US flight school, teaching FAA liscences. I only went there for some Instrument brush up and some night experience, but the time and effort put into a mere 9hrs that i flew there you would have thought i was parting with 000's.
In the UK i have found and can honestly say that all the instructors i have flown with, and that includes the ones passing through, have been professional.
Gonewest, the US school i attended that provided JAA training, was in my view, arrogant, unorganised, and was certainly on the poorer side of any flight school i have attended.
I think it is fair to say, that there are good and bad in all industries, its just in this one the unfortunate tend to lose out with skills they need and money they earned to the unscrupulous.
P.S. Go west do you hire multis at a good rate, and where r u?
Good thread though
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
Join Date: May 2000
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Try F.I.T, Melbourne Florida - having a great time here and the prices are damn good.
Contact Multiflight for more info.
VFE.
PS: Nowt wrong with a plug if the school deserves it.
Contact Multiflight for more info.
VFE.
PS: Nowt wrong with a plug if the school deserves it.
Join Date: May 2002
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Are you guys aware you could clear INS in both Dublin and Shannon? Get a £9.95 Ryanair trip over here - much nicer being stopped in Dublin than returned from the US. At least there's a pub to go to afterwards...
VT
VT
