Qantas Group Training Academy at Wellcamp

[Clare Prop]

Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was

Thus allowing the providers of said higher education to morph into businesses....big businesses. Obviously flying schools have always been businesses, and now benefit from being seen as a "higher education" providers and given access to the same trough. As long as the government will effectively advance the student whatever the business decides it will charge, there is no incentive to lower the fees, or to stop them accepting anyone with a pulse. All higher education facilities in this country are now just sausage factories, churning out thousands of over-qualified/under-experienced debt ridden students looking for jobs that in the main don't exist. At the end of the day, the business always gets the money. It's the taxpayer who may never see it returned.

I agree with most of what you say, but not all flying schools have their snouts in the trough, though it is very easy to pick out the posters on this thread that do. Some schools don't want to deal with the bureaucracy and still prefer to give quality over quantity. Most sausage factories have a pretty limited lifespan, I've seen so many of them come and go over the years. There's a lot of money in it for a few while the ponzi scheme lasts, Neel Whotsisname from Soar on the Rich List as an example. Where did that $67 million of taxpayers money go? The ministers who promoted his scheme should have been held accountable.

I disagree that all universities are sausage factories, visa factories yes, but there are good quality science degrees out there.

[TBM-Legend]

Hansford

[Climb150]

Train to proficiency takes many forms. I found that the "sausage factory" school train to proficiency involved the students knowing exactly what was going to happen and when. That doesn't really happen in the real world.

The school I attended turned into one of these sausage factories after vet fee help became available for flight training.

For the MECIR test I only knew which approaches I was going to fly but not the route or order of the test. Now apparently the students literally fly the test route a few times and do the approaches in order they will get them on the test day.

I don't think that is the "train to proficiency" I want out of a fresh CPL holder.

​

[Hoosten]

Clare, I sent you a PM if you wouldn't mind.

[AviatoR21]

Climb150 hit the nail on the head! What they want is monkey see monkey do. I’d rather a thinking pilot.

[Climb150]

It isn’t surprising they almost all can achieve a higher than minimum standard by completion, and then can head off into the right seat of Q400 or bigger with a minimum of fuss.

I don’t think a lot of people see the big advantage in that environment.

​​​​​​​Most parts of the world put 250 hour pilots in the RHS of Dash/ATRs etc. It's not a big deal as it isn't the space shuttle. QGPA isnt exceptional for achieving that.

[Newhairdo]

Originally Posted by Climb150

Most parts of the world put 250 hour pilots in the RHS of Dash/ATRs etc. It's not a big deal as it isn't the space shuttle. QGPA isnt exceptional for achieving that.

In Europe, easyjet, BA, Ryanair, TUI put 200 hour ex cadets into the RHS of A320/B737 with no issue at all.
Even Virgin Atlantic have placed former cadets into the RHS of the A330.
They come from solid schools, and are checked to line (to a high standard) in 40 sectors.
Schools like CAE Oxford, L3/CTC, FTE Jerez pioneered these courses and did an excellent job.

It really isn’t a big deal.

[Capt Fathom]

Originally Posted by Newhairdo

In Europe, easyjet, BA, Ryanair, TUI put 200 hour ex cadets into the RHS of A320/B737 with no issue at all.
It really isn’t a big deal.

Because they are trained from their first lesson for that position. Same as Defence Force training.
However, it’s not that way with all ‘cadetships.’

[goodtimeNOTalongtime]

Originally Posted by Newhairdo

In Europe, easyjet, BA, Ryanair, TUI put 200 hour ex cadets into the RHS of A320/B737 with no issue at all.
Even Virgin Atlantic have placed former cadets into the RHS of the A330.
They come from solid schools, and are checked to line (to a high standard) in 40 sectors.
Schools like CAE Oxford, L3/CTC, FTE Jerez pioneered these courses and did an excellent job.

It really isn’t a big deal.

To be fair, an A320 isn’t quite the same as a Q400. Sadly the A320 is a much better suited aeroplane for cadets to go onto than a Q400. Not suggesting the Q400 is a space shuttle by any means, but it’s a MUCH more hands on aeroplane than modern jets, with no auto throttle, no fly by wire, some direct linkage flight controls, very poor low speed flight characteristics and a significant surplus of power.

Most people I know who have flown the Q400 amongst other types including Boeing and Airbus jets rate it as one of, if not the hardest aeroplane they’ve ever flown.

That being said, the training of low time pilots (QGPA doesn’t have a Cadetship or cadet pathway) is more a testament to the training establishments at QLink and JQ rather than specific to the flight school.

[goodtimeNOTalongtime]

Originally Posted by dr dre

And you know what? Q Group has been training low houred ab-initio pilots through various schemes (Cadetship, Traineeship, Future Pilot Program (Uni), QGPA) onto the Q400 (and -300 as well) for near on 2 decades free from serious incident. Numerous Captains and Training Captains from their ranks too.

No reason why this won’t continue with the advent of the QGPA.

Hence the last part of my comment about the respective training establishments and their history of success 🤷‍♂️

Although for what it’s worth, they were not free from serious issues. There are a number of changes to SOP, Company Policy and training requirements which were a result of low time pilots struggling to handle the aircraft and conditions. They also require between 50-100% more training, so not exactly the same as a direct entry hire either.

[Climb150]

I think it's obvious to everyone that QGPA exists only to flood the market with low time CPLs to keep downward pressure on wages.

What I would like to find out is if QLink has literally run out of applicants and now has to recruit from QGPA to fill the ranks or are they doing it to give perspective students hope that it is a pathway to a job at QLink/Jetstar? I say this because class numbers at QPGA have been down apparently.

[Hoosten]

I think it's obvious to everyone that QGPA exists only to flood the market with low time CPLs to keep downward pressure on wages.

That's funny mate, you don't need downward pressure, especially in that sphere. Pilots have been quite happy to sign up for qlink conditions well before Wellcamp came along.

[Newhairdo]

Originally Posted by Climb150

I think it's obvious to everyone that QGPA exists only to flood the market with low time CPLs to keep downward pressure on wages.

What I would like to find out is if QLink has literally run out of applicants and now has to recruit from QGPA to fill the ranks or are they doing it to give perspective students hope that it is a pathway to a job at QLink/Jetstar? I say this because class numbers at QPGA have been down apparently.

That’s a fairly uninformed comment.
Qantas are the only Aussie airline that have woken up to the fact that pilot supply is becoming a problem, so they are throwing money at trying to fix it. Much like most other foreign airlines.
VA need to wake up to this pretty soon, but……

[MikeHatter732]

Originally Posted by Newhairdo

That’s a fairly uninformed comment.
Qantas are the only Aussie airline that have woken up to the fact that pilot supply is becoming a problem, so they are throwing money at trying to fix it. Much like most other foreign airlines.
VA need to wake up to this pretty soon, but……

VA have a pilot academy already. It's called Eastern & Sunnies. They are leaving in droves to go to VA.

[Newhairdo]

Originally Posted by MikeHatter732

VA have a pilot academy already. It's called Eastern & Sunnies. They are leaving in droves to go to VA.

They must be crazy! 😝

[mikewil]

Originally Posted by Newhairdo

That’s a fairly uninformed comment.
Qantas are the only Aussie airline that have woken up to the fact that pilot supply is becoming a problem, so they are throwing money at trying to fix it. Much like most other foreign airlines.
VA need to wake up to this pretty soon, but……

How exactly are they throwing money at it?

Last I checked, the QFPA program is just a glorified VET funded program. The only ones throwing money at this program is the taxpayer, with the beneficiary being FTA being able to charge $500+ an hour for CPL training in a DA40.

[Clare Prop]

Originally Posted by Hoosten

Clare, I sent you a PM if you wouldn't mind.

No PM recieved.

[Flying Flapjack]

The QGPA was mentioned in the Aviation White Paper, released last month. On pages 97-98, it has this to say about the academy (emphasis mine):

In January 2020, the Qantas Group established the Qantas Group Pilot Academy, run in partnership with
Flight Training Adelaide, which can train 250 pilots per year. However, the cost to individuals of completing
pilot training at the academy is approximately $140,000, plus accommodation costs, and takes up to
16 months. Students at the academy can access Australian Government VET student loans. Graduation
from the Qantas Group Pilot Academy does not guarantee a job with a Qantas Group airline. However, in
its Aviation White Paper submission, Qantas states a number of graduates have been employed within the
group. The Qantas Group has advised that over the next 5 years it will offer 50 scholarships to women and
First Nations people to support the cost of onsite accommodation at the academy. Given Qantas’s estimated
need for 4,000 pilots over the next 10 years, it must do more to create a sustainable pilot pipeline.

The Qantas Group in particular – as Australia’s largest employer of pilots – should recommence
offering cadetship places to newly qualified pilots, which could include a direct employment pathway
for a percentage of graduates of the Qantas Group Pilot Academy, similar to the Rex direct entry model.
International examples such as British Airways’ Speedbird Pilot Academy, which funds up to 60 places per
year and guarantees a job as a British Airways pilot for graduates, also provide a useful model for Australia’s
large airlines to consider.

The Minister for Transport has written to the Qantas Group and Virgin Australia asking them to advise how
they will increase pilot training and career development to support a sustainable pipeline of Australian pilots
and minimise the impact on smaller aviation businesses during pilot shortages. If the airlines fail to put in
place appropriate arrangements, the Australian Government will consider other options, such as a levy on
large Australian airlines to fund pilot training and cadetships.

It will be interesting to see where this leads.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Originally Posted by Newhairdo

Qantas are the only Aussie airline that have woken up to the fact that pilot supply is becoming a problem, so they are throwing money at trying to fix it.

How exactly are they throwing money at it? It would appear the tax payer is the only one who's money is being thrown around.

[Clare Prop]

When they say "Qantas states a number of graduates have been employed within the
group" why can't they say what that number is?

As the courses are largely taxpayer funded, should we not have a bit more transparency, like the graduate labour market outcomes from universities 2023-gos-national-report.pdf ?

Is it really legal to offer scholarships to only women these days? How is this compatible with the Sex Discrimination Act? It's not as if women have been excluded from the industry on the basis of their sex (though that itself is a potential minefield when Qantas define it by birth certificate or passport). Australian women have the same opportunities as the men including when it comes to access to education and funding. So why should the men be barred from applying for a scholarship' if it isn't based on ability and equal opportunity for all applicants then isn't there a risk of tokenism and resentment?