Qantas Group Training Academy at Wellcamp

[Lead Balloon]

Doubtful debt

A significant proportion of HELP and VSL debt is regarded as ‘doubtful debt’, or ‘debt not expected to be repaid’ (DNER). This includes the debt of those who die before repaying their loan. A proportion of the doubtful debt is written off each year. Bankruptcy does not discharge HELP or VSL debt.

According to the then Department of Education, Skills and Employment 2021–22 Annual Report, the amount of HELP debt incurred in 2021–22 not expected to be repaid was 11.8% (p. 57). As VSL loans have only been available for a few years, the extent of DNER is still unknown. However, the Australian Government Actuary has estimated that the DNER for VSL debt is 30% (p. 12).

Written off debt = taxpayers' money down the drain.

Just sayin'.

[Clare Prop]

The students have to fork out $450 a week for accommodation and mealsand other incidentals while not earning an income, so it's not as if you can start penniless and everything will be covered. The cost of the accommodation alone could pay for a PPL. The dead money "loan fee" could pay for another 80 or so command hours on top of that.

Back of the envelope calculation. $174988 is the max available to borrow for this. Add the 20% loan fee = $209985.

Indexation at current rate of 4.7% on $209985 = $9869. It is applied on 1 June, but the repayments you made through the year are only deducted from the principal when you file your tax return after 30 June.

Google tells me an FO with Qantas max pay is $106000. This takes you into the 6% of wages repayment bracket. So that is $6360 taken off the debt when your tax return is done.

But wait, that doesn't even cover the indexation...you have taken $6360 off the indexation but there is still $3509 of indexation there which will compound with the principal, which hasn't reduced at all.

Lets say you get some bonuses and earn $126468, which takes you into the 8% repayment level. You will pay off $10117 in the first year. Congratulations! You have taken $248 off the principal, 0.118%. $209737. Add the indexation on 1 June...repeat....the only way out of the trap is to make a voluntary repayment before 1 June.

I do hope this is all clearly explained to the students and they go and check with a financial advisor.

[btrdux]

Say a successful candidate at QGPA who goes onto making a $106k a year job (using your figures) at the age of 25 (some are younger, some older, just an average), and retires at 65. Compare that to a "traditional" flight school where the student spends less money on training, but then finds themselves unemployed, potentially for a significant amount of time depending on luck/timing.

Let's assume they are successful in finding an entry level GA job, they will most likely make the single engine piston award (~$53k?) after having spent many months unemployed/pulling pints while paying out of pocket for living/moving expenses in remote Australia. That difference in earnings (~$50k) is compounded in favour of the QG student for the next 40 years.

Say by year 2, the GA student moves onto multi engine pistons/single engine turbines ($60k? $70k?) and the QG student moves onto year 2 FO ($110k? $120k?). That is additionally another $50k, compounded for the next 39 years.

Repeat etc every year for typical career progression and I'm sure you'll find the QG cadet comes out significantly ahead.

The main pitfall I see of course with QGPA is not everyone makes it. Not everyone who applies makes it to testing. Not everyone who tests makes it to the interview. Not everyone who interviews makes it in. Not everyone who makes it in graduates. Not everyone who graduates gets a QG interview, and not everyone who gets a QG interview gets a job. But if you are successful in all that, it's the best career path right now in Australian aviation.

[Newhairdo]

Originally Posted by Clare Prop

The students have to fork out $450 a week for accommodation and mealsand other incidentals while not earning an income, so it's not as if you can start penniless and everything will be covered. The cost of the accommodation alone could pay for a PPL. The dead money "loan fee" could pay for another 80 or so command hours on top of that.

Back of the envelope calculation. $174988 is the max available to borrow for this. Add the 20% loan fee = $209985.

Indexation at current rate of 4.7% on $209985 = $9869. It is applied on 1 June, but the repayments you made through the year are only deducted from the principal when you file your tax return after 30 June.

Google tells me an FO with Qantas max pay is $106000. This takes you into the 6% of wages repayment bracket. So that is $6360 taken off the debt when your tax return is done.

But wait, that doesn't even cover the indexation...you have taken $6360 off the indexation but there is still $3509 of indexation there which will compound with the principal, which hasn't reduced at all.

Lets say you get some bonuses and earn $126468, which takes you into the 8% repayment level. You will pay off $10117 in the first year. Congratulations! You have taken $248 off the principal, 0.118%. $209737. Add the indexation on 1 June...repeat....the only way out of the trap is to make a voluntary repayment before 1 June.

I do hope this is all clearly explained to the students and they go and check with a financial advisor.

Hi Clare
Im gonna keep this brief.
Everyone pays for Accom, including GA pilots, so $450 balances out.
A PPL plus 80 hours still gets you nowhere near an airline job. Or actually any job.
Everyone who takes out a loan has to pay it back. I accept that some will default, but most repay.
How are pilots different to Doctors, Dentists, Vets, Nurses, Engineers? They all have the same repayment issues.
Look, I get that you don’t like the QF model. That’s OK. But it’s the best route available for youngsters who,are aiming for that airline RHS

[Clare Prop]

If your focus is very narrow and RHS on Qantas is all you want, then you are probably right. Reading the other forums though it maybe isn't the utopia that some imagine it to be. Apparently you need 4000 hours total and 1000 on type to upgrade so you are going to be sitting in that seat for quite a few years, make yourself comfortable.

[Newhairdo]

Originally Posted by Clare Prop

If your focus is very narrow and RHS on Qantas is all you want, then you are probably right. Reading the other forums though it maybe isn't the utopia that some imagine it to be. Apparently you need 4000 hours in command and 1000 on type to upgrade so you are going to be sitting in that seat for quite a few years, make yourself comfortable.

Personally, I would give QF a wide berth.
There are better gigs.VA is worse.
And all of the QF guys seem to hate each other (LH vs SH vs JQ vs Qlink vs everyone else!) so a bit toxic.
But it’s a great start for someone. If you have 35 -45 years in front of you, 6-8 years for a command is pretty good. Actually it’s awesome for a company like QF.
Its all about perspective
BTW Its 4000 total, not in command.

[btrdux]

Originally Posted by Clare Prop

Apparently you need 4000 hours in command and 1000 on type to upgrade so you are going to be sitting in that seat for quite a few years, make yourself comfortable.

Cadet-style pathways have existed at Q-Link and Jetstar for multiple decades now, and as many people have pointed out, produced many current day captains and training captains. So '4000 hours in command to upgrade' must not be true otherwise that would not have been possible.

4000 total hours, perhaps, but getting there in the RHS of a airliner will be more comfortable and financially rewarding than (most) alternative pathways.

[Clare Prop]

My bad, it should be 4000 total not command.

[CaptainInsaneO]

Originally Posted by Clare Prop

The students have to fork out $450 a week for accommodation and mealsand other incidentals while not earning an income, so it's not as if you can start penniless and everything will be covered. The cost of the accommodation alone could pay for a PPL. The dead money "loan fee" could pay for another 80 or so command hours on top of that.

Back of the envelope calculation. $174988 is the max available to borrow for this. Add the 20% loan fee = $209985.

Indexation at current rate of 4.7% on $209985 = $9869. It is applied on 1 June, but the repayments you made through the year are only deducted from the principal when you file your tax return after 30 June.

Google tells me an FO with Qantas max pay is $106000. This takes you into the 6% of wages repayment bracket. So that is $6360 taken off the debt when your tax return is done.

But wait, that doesn't even cover the indexation...you have taken $6360 off the indexation but there is still $3509 of indexation there which will compound with the principal, which hasn't reduced at all.

Lets say you get some bonuses and earn $126468, which takes you into the 8% repayment level. You will pay off $10117 in the first year. Congratulations! You have taken $248 off the principal, 0.118%. $209737. Add the indexation on 1 June...repeat....the only way out of the trap is to make a voluntary repayment before 1 June.

I do hope this is all clearly explained to the students and they go and check with a financial advisor.

There's a lot of assumptions being thrown around by a lot of people. But Clare has nailed it with the last sentence above...
It's all about informing these young men and women about the financial truths and risks before getting into programs like these.
Well at least it should be anyway.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Originally Posted by Clare Prop

If your focus is very narrow and RHS on Qantas is all you want, then you are probably right. Reading the other forums though it maybe isn't the utopia that some imagine it to be.

I reckon most starting out dream of that gig.
As others have said, the nay sayers are in the minority and all of the crews I fly with love the job. Could there be improvements? Of course!

Would they leave QF permanently? Absolutely not. There will always be the few who chase other opportunities, the majority stay - because it’s the best flying job in Oz.

[neville_nobody]

But successfully graduate and you’ll be set on the best airline pilot career path in Australia.

Do you they offer a career path yet like REX did or is it just another license factory and they wish you all the best with your career endeavours on graduation?

[Cedrik]

Originally Posted by Newhairdo

In my experience, most CPLs want to go to the RHS of an airliner. And everything they do is with this goal in mind.

Maybe but there is a reasonable percentage that get CPL's for other careers. Some instructors do the job because they enjoy it and have no intention of going airlines. There are careers in GA that pay well, up there with airlines and in some cases double first officers and getting close to mainline airline captains.
Ag and fire being a good one. The vast majority of GA pilots are self funded and when you start flying for a living there are no repayments. There are other ways to fly besides giving a school 200k to make you a "Captain".

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

I am moving this thread to the Professional Pilot Training forum which I think will be more appropriate than the General Aviation forum..

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

With no guarantee of an airline job on graduation, GA is where they are headed.

[Clare Prop]

Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was

With no guarantee of an airline job on graduation, GA is where they are headed.

Rumour is that because of an oversupply of graduates without the experience to upgrade, others are being told to go into GA to look for work and try again for the FO jobs when they have 1000 hours. Trouble is that they are not really trained in the types of aircraft and operations required for GA plus some have an attitude, also demonstrated on this thread, that GA is for the plebs who couldn't make it into their "elite" (even though they are the ones hawking round their resumes).
This attitude, and the fact they have only ever followed the bouncing ball of a syllabus and never been on any kind of "road trip" into the land of GA or done any networking isn't going to make them a valuable team member in a busy GA operation and who has time to give them all the extra training they need to be safe in that environment?.

[Climb150]

The majority of grads will achieve the first job in the group. Those who don’t will have priority in recruitment when their time comes. It’s why applying and trying to get into the academy is a no brainer IMO.

Please tell me where this is written?

​​​​​​​Dre, your constant defence of QGPA is getting tiring. There is no guarantee of anything at this place.

[Clare Prop]

I think you'll find there is not so much "bashing" of the Academy, more the student loan system. Certainly no jealousy here of this institutionalised method of training, but each to their own. If all they want is RHS with Qantas then that's fine so long as there is full disclosure of their chances.

Dre you seem very sure so please back up what you are saying, asking for some numbers isn't "hateful comments". This isn't personal. I'm still waiting for some stats and I'm sure any wannabees reading this would like to see that too. So far I see words like "Majority, pretty thorough, around, higher, mostly, a lot" etc. Surely results are published somewhere for the sake of transparency?

There are some reliable career paths in GA, so long as the CPLs are trained for GA they can succeed, it is not a random gamble at all. They can then move into the airlines with an ATPL when they are ready, if that is what they want - many don't want that lifestyle.

However if someone has trained at the academy and are not one of the chosen ones then they wouldn't be able to move into GA without extra training and getting the minimum command hours needed for single pilot commercial ops. So what happens to them?

[Climb150]

Prop hit the nail on the head. As they say on TV, "objection hearsay".This is because something isn't true just because someone said it to you.

Dre I have nothing against you personally or the people that go to QGPA but until we see some stats of recruitment I view everything with scepticism.

[BEVLY9]

Originally Posted by Clare Prop

However if someone has trained at the academy and are not one of the chosen ones then they wouldn't be able to move into GA without extra training and getting the minimum command hours needed for single pilot commercial ops. So what happens to them?

1. Those going through the academy are already the chosen ones, all they have to do is apply themselves to their studies for a little over a year and they will find themselves to be miles ahead of their peers career wise that choose to go to a “proper GA school”( whatever that even is).

2.Theres been multiple examples of students that either didn’t make it all the way through or are waiting on the hold file that have been working in GA that seem to be doing just fine as they are still employed at said companies.

3. The large majority of people that want to fly commercially want to do so flying for an airline. So it makes sense that they would apply directly to a program that is somewhat “affiliated” with the largest and most publicised airline in the country.

4. The vet fee program isn’t perfect but it provides access for people that in today’s economy would almost certainly never come close to achieving a career in aviation. There's multiple schools that offer this option and yes they’re not all of the same standard but at the end of the day the individual wears the loan once they hit minimum income threshold required for repayments.

Overall, the QGPA provides a solid pathway for those that are selected and its made quite clear what it takes to succeed.

[Clare Prop]

There is a huge difference between an integrated and non integrated CPL. For a start, non integrated is not one size fits all. It is preparing the candidate for the test, which could take anything between 5 and 30 hours to ensure they are within tolerances as well as having a mindset that understands how to work in a challenging industry with wafer thin margins, depending on what standards they were taught at PPL and if they have honed their skills hour building or just drilled holes in the sky. I have also converted many airline pilots from overseas to the Australian CPL.

The flight test is the same, but the route to get there is not and that is what employers are interested in, they all have a CPL, but what experience do they have to set them apart from the others?. The non integrated CPL on minimum hours will have nearly twice as much command time as the integrated, which makes a big difference if you are going into single pilot ops and they will have that time in relevant types, to insurance companies as well as employers. They will have experience in different environments and types and developed different critical thinking skills outside of the airline pathway.

Another major difference is the investment that taxpayers are making in these big academies in the form of loans, how much of that money actually goes on the flying training and not the overheads? With these sums it should be more transparent, not only to the people underwriting it but also the people repaying the loans. I've just asked for it to be quantified. If I was a wannabee reading this thread I would be asking the same questions, indeed I did when I was offered a cadetship many years ago and decided to turn it down. A predetermined career doing the exact same thing for the next 40 years with a massive bond just didn't appeal, and thank goodness because pilots are needed in many other careers too.