Qantas Group Training Academy at Wellcamp

[Clare Prop]

Originally Posted by Mach E Avelli

Better still, we need cadet pilot academies fully funded by the airlines that will benefit from their pilot graduates. Potential pilots to be selected by the airline and all successful graduates guaranteed employment. Run concurrently with direct entry employment from other sources such as military and GA.
British Airways did that successfully 60 years ago, so it’s not exactly a novel concept.

They are doing it now.
Speedbird Pilot Academy - Funded - PPRuNe Forums

[New_FIR]

I am considering applying to the Qantas Group Pilot Academy to train for my CPL and I would be interested to hear from anyone who has been through the selection process or has already completed their training.
In particular I would appreciate any advice on the following:

1) What type of questions does the face to face interview entail? Is it just a HR style of interview, or is it more involved than that?
2) I see the application asks if you passed physics in Year 12. Is physics actually required to be selected for training or to be potentially offered a position in the QF Group at a later date?
3) How many recent graduates have been offered positions in QLink of Jetstar at the completion of training?

[Positive Rate Gearup]

I have been following this thread for sometime as I have a family member who will soon be graduating from the Qantas Academy, it’s an impressive place, the staff seem to be dedicated to what they do. My family member has had plenty of engagement with Qantas/Jetstar and seems positive that a role will eventuate. One of the things I have seen is the comments on the ‘Gravy Train’, when my family member interviewed it was made pretty obvious that they wouldn’t accept his application unless they were confident that they had the skills to pass, and they had a hell of a lot of data through the testing. I believe they can take 29 or so students in a cohort, but the cohort joined had well short of that. When asked I was told that the applicants didn’t meet there standard so didn’t take them and ran a smaller group.

it’s been very tough. But my family member has grown alot.

I am for one proud to eventually attend there graduation

[Capt Fathom]

Are you a pilot Positive Rate Gearup?
As an ‘family member’ of a student pilot, you have interesting knowledge of things Wellcamp (and aviation).

[Hoosten]

Agreed, and as I have said before, in-house testing shouldn't be allowed at any flying school.

Why not? You're questioning their integrity?

[Mach E Avelli]

Originally Posted by Hoosten

Why not? You're questioning their integrity?

re in house testing and integrity, I recall many years ago a mob in the USA (down Florida or Texas way?) that advertised “examiner on staff, pass guaranteed “. I had the misfortune to train some of their foreign graduates on the venerable Fokker F 27, and it wasn’t easy, especially when they failed. Some trainees reacted badly, having never suffered criticism during initial flight training, and with no concept of ‘failure’, having never experienced it in training. Makes one wonder the extent that some schools will go to, to appease students. I doubt there was any flying lesson in my early days that didn’t attract criticism, sometimes scathing. Criticism often deserved, like the one time I left the mags on after shutdown - I still remember an embarrassing and quite public bollocking from the irascible ex military CFI after an early solo when he was next out to the aeroplane. He stormed back into the office and ripped me a new rectum (I have never forgotten mags since!).
Apparently, it’s not just aviation corrupted by “pass guarantee” but rife in some Australian universities catering to foreign students.
Tell me this stuff doesn’t happen in the USA too…
Examiners should be independent, and preferably not reliant on any one institution for income, or appointed and paid by the regulator, or by the person being tested on a strict understanding of no guarantees.

[goodtimeNOTalongtime]

Originally Posted by Mach E Avelli

re in house testing and integrity, I recall many years ago a mob in the USA (down Florida or Texas way?) that advertised “examiner on staff, pass guaranteed “. I had the misfortune to train some of their foreign graduates on the venerable Fokker F 27, and it wasn’t easy, especially when they failed. Some trainees reacted badly, having never suffered criticism during initial flight training, and with no concept of ‘failure’, having never experienced it in training. Makes one wonder the extent that some schools will go to, to appease students. I doubt there was any flying lesson in my early days that didn’t attract criticism, sometimes scathing. Criticism often deserved, like the one time I left the mags on after shutdown - I still remember an embarrassing and quite public bollocking from the irascible ex military CFI after an early solo when he was next out to the aeroplane. He stormed back into the office and ripped me a new rectum (I have never forgotten mags since!).
Apparently, it’s not just aviation corrupted by “pass guarantee” but rife in some Australian universities catering to foreign students.
Tell me this stuff doesn’t happen in the USA too…
Examiners should be independent, and preferably not reliant on any one institution for income, or appointed and paid by the regulator, or by the person being tested on a strict understanding of no guarantees.

Just to clarify, the QGPA is not “Pass Guaranteed”. Unfortunately due to the structure of the early ATPL courses, failure rates were significant, which has since been corrected with better teaching and better course structure and alignment within the overall program.

Furthermore, failure of a CPL (they don’t do a PPL test, just a check) is not entirely unheard of. The standard of pass is generally quite good, regardless of whether an in flight ATO or an independent one is used. They use independent ones regularly. The basis of this is a fairly intensive course with very regular flying and a lot of downtime spent studying as there isn’t a lot else to do.

[Climb150]

When asked I was told that the applicants didn’t meet there standard so didn’t take them and ran a smaller group.

I would say they rarely refuse anyone. The smaller group is probably because people have finally realised it's way overpriced. (Come on all the experts tell me how it's value for money) It's a business and they can't afford to be super picky with who they take cause the lights have to stay on.

[Mach E Avelli]

Originally Posted by Climb150

I would say they rarely refuse anyone. The smaller group is probably because people have finally realised it's way overpriced. (Come on all the experts tell me how it's value for money) It's a business and they can't afford to be super picky with who they take cause the lights have to stay on.

If it gets the student a career at QF, it’s probably value for money. If all it gets you is a job in GA, or a place in the dole queue, it’s money down the gurgler, but maybe a cure for compulsive gambling. Caveat emptor.

[mikewil]

I really wonder if these VET courses would have anywhere near the number of students they have if the massive loan had to be paid back the minute the qualification was gained and at a nominal, but not extreme rate when compared to what a personal loan would demand. Say $200-$300 a week or something.

I wonder if potential students would be just a bit more picky about where they train and what types they fly.

[ajax58]

Originally Posted by mikewil

I really wonder if these VET courses would have anywhere near the number of students they have if the massive loan had to be paid back the minute the qualification was gained and at a nominal, but not extreme rate when compared to what a personal loan would demand. Say $200-$300 a week or something.

I wonder if potential students would be just a bit more picky about where they train and what types they fly.

The lucky ones from the Qantas academy who get straight into JQ will be paying it back at around that rate. The others, not so much.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Well unfortunately whether you like it or not our society has shifted the burden of higher education costs onto the student.

Thus allowing the providers of said higher education to morph into businesses....big businesses. Obviously flying schools have always been businesses, and now benefit from being seen as a "higher education" providers and given access to the same trough. As long as the government will effectively advance the student whatever the business decides it will charge, there is no incentive to lower the fees, or to stop them accepting anyone with a pulse. All higher education facilities in this country are now just sausage factories, churning out thousands of over-qualified/under-experienced debt ridden students looking for jobs that in the main don't exist. At the end of the day, the business always gets the money. It's the taxpayer who may never see it returned.

[On eyre]

Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was

Thus allowing the providers of said higher education to morph into businesses....big businesses. Obviously flying schools have always been businesses, and now benefit from being seen as a "higher education" providers and given access to the same trough. As long as the government will effectively advance the student whatever the business decides it will charge, there is no incentive to lower the fees, or to stop them accepting anyone with a pulse. All higher education facilities in this country are now just sausage factories, churning out thousands of over-qualified/under-experienced debt ridden students looking for jobs that in the main don't exist. At the end of the day, the business always gets the money. It's the taxpayer who may never see it returned.

I would be interested in your solution to the problem.

[Ascend Charlie]

In 2008 I was hired to provide military-style training to a middle-eastern country. The training was done in Oz to the same syllabus as the Army Aviation School, but the end aim of the course was not to pass an Oz licence, rather to satisfy the Standards Manual. Their final wings award would be back in their country. Groups of 6 arrived every 10 weeks, and it all started out fair dinkum.

Working on the 3rd course, the Head of School and I decided that one particular student was never going to make it, and should be sent home. The training reports fully justified it, so away he went, in a flood of tears. The following week, a student off the 4th course met the same fate - scrubbed. We thought that this would inspire the lads to work a bit harder (they were lazy boys). Bong! Wrong!

A directive arrived from their country, demanding that all money spent on those two be repaid, because it was our failure to get them through the course. Rumbles of contract cancellation and all that. Well, the owner of the school could see his personal money tree losing its leaves, so after paying their money back, the directive was issued: nobody will ever fail this course. All ground school exams were completely dumbed down, flights were repeated to try to reach the standard, but if they didn't, the trip sheets were magically changed after leaving the instructor's computer. The students caught on very quickly, and their attitude towards learning evaporated. They would fly a sortie, but we weren't allowed to test them on that sequence again on the next flight - a complaint to Daddy back home (Daddy was a general) led to a rocket coming through the system for the instructor who was insisting on standards being met. The new junior instructors were preferred, as they hadn't yet developed a sense of standards.

The whole place became a joke, a sausage factory turning out sub-standard sausages, who fortunately never flew in Oz without an instructor. The factory is now defunct. Chief sausage-maker lives in Scotland now. But it could have been so good.

[AviatoR21]

This is what Qantas group training is all about, it doesn’t just stem from the academy. “Train to proficiency” as they say. If only the general public knew of the lack of standards up the front.

[lucille]

Wondered what happened to those helicopters who used to head north out of MCY in droves every morning. KSA Air Force lads who prove my point about the need to choose ones parents carefully as a precursor to a successful career in aviation. 🤪

[Ascend Charlie]

Lucille, see post #131 above.

choose ones parents carefully as a precursor to a successful career in aviation. 🤪

Dunno about successful careers. All they wanted was to be an officer in the military, and have a set of wings. Sometimes on return they would fly once a year. I have heard that several of the "graduates" have crashed and died already. No surprise.

The "students" would show me photos of cars that their parents had bought for them in anticipation of becoming pilots - Ferraris, Lamborghinis, for 19-year-old kids who had no concept of limitations.

[JamieMaree]

Originally Posted by AviatoR21

This is what Qantas group training is all about, it doesn’t just stem from the academy. “Train to proficiency” as they say. If only the general public knew of the lack of standards up the front.

What a load of crap!
While Gen X marches to the beat of a different drum, there is no question about their operational standard.

[Climb150]

Originally Posted by JamieMaree

What a load of crap!
While Gen X marches to the beat of a different drum, there is no question about their operational standard.

You have to explain this to me.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Originally Posted by On eyre

I would be interested in your solution to the problem.

I wasn't proposing a solution, and I don't have one. I think that horse has bolted, gone lame, and been shot. I have a son who is prevaricating about whether to continue a degree, and my only sensible advice to him is if you are not sure, get out and cut your losses. He doesn't need a massive debt for something he may not achieve, or ever use.