Qantas Group Training Academy at Wellcamp
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,599
Likes: 602
From: Australia
Make that $175,000 able to be borrowed on a HELP loan for 2024. Not including the 20% "admin" fees, which takes it to over $210,000, indexation this year will be around 4.5% ..so let's make that $220,000 after the first indexation on the full amount. You'd need a starter salary of $118,000 just to pay the first year's indexation deduction from your pay without making a dent on the loan.
Luckily not all flying schools and not all students want to be part of the airlines.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,599
Likes: 602
From: Australia
Well all my former studes who are now with Qantas, Virgin, Emirates, Network, Jetstar and others all went via GA and as a result were able to go in with ATPL exams AND hours already done and get a command sooner than someone who had gone into the RHS straight out of flying school.
One just started with an airline and had got 800 in command in just under two years doing single engine single pilot VFR work, charter, fire spotting and survey.
So it's not just getting the airline job, but how long it will take getting a command and a decent return on your investment that matters.
My grads enter the workforce with a training investment of around $80,000 which they can get a return on as pay straight away.
One just started with an airline and had got 800 in command in just under two years doing single engine single pilot VFR work, charter, fire spotting and survey.
So it's not just getting the airline job, but how long it will take getting a command and a decent return on your investment that matters.
My grads enter the workforce with a training investment of around $80,000 which they can get a return on as pay straight away.
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,195
Likes: 271
From: Equatorial
Not sure how the Aussie system works but under one system I worked cadets (self sponsored) went straight into the RHS of the A320.
3-5 years later upgrading to command, their only ‘command’ time PICUS.
How does it work in the Aussie airlines?
Looking back at my career would I have jumped straight into an airline if I could? Yep, however looking back at the extreme fun I had in GA I actually feel sorry for guys that go straight into the RHS. Yeah it’s a career but it ain’t flying (ok it is flying but ya know what I mean).
If it is over 65% going into group airlines then that’s a solid number. However wouldn’t it be great to see sponsored cadetships, the true cadetship.
3-5 years later upgrading to command, their only ‘command’ time PICUS.
How does it work in the Aussie airlines?
Looking back at my career would I have jumped straight into an airline if I could? Yep, however looking back at the extreme fun I had in GA I actually feel sorry for guys that go straight into the RHS. Yeah it’s a career but it ain’t flying (ok it is flying but ya know what I mean).
If it is over 65% going into group airlines then that’s a solid number. However wouldn’t it be great to see sponsored cadetships, the true cadetship.
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 987
Likes: 197
From: Mexico City
So if you shopped around a student might be able to save 10-15% on a CPL, IR and ATPL vs the Academy but with a greater than not chance of airline employment straight away vs almost zero via a “normal” school I think it’s a no brainer decision for any youngster who desires to ultimately be an airline pilot to apply to the Academy.So if you shopped around a student might be able to save 10-15% on a CPL, IR and ATPL vs the Academy but with a greater than not chance of airline employment straight away vs almost zero via a “normal” school I think it’s a no brainer decision for any youngster who desires to ultimately be an airline pilot to apply to the Academy.
As you said Dre nothing is guaranteed so going to QGPA in the hope of going straight to a Qantas Group job is naive at best.
Last edited by Climb150; 21st April 2024 at 19:41.
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,712
Likes: 602
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Yes I would like to save 15% on 140k please. It's only 21k (such a small amount !!!) and if I don't go to the academy I can live at home and save more money.
As you said Dre nothing is guaranteed so going to QGPA in the hope of going straight to a Qantas Group job is naive at best.
As you said Dre nothing is guaranteed so going to QGPA in the hope of going straight to a Qantas Group job is naive at best.
Well, I just flew with a couple of Qantas Academy Graduates last month who were straight to the right hand seat of an A320 so it is not so naive.
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 290
Likes: 45
From: Lower North Shore
No, Command is predicated on seniority. ATPL minimums are 1500 total = 2 years of operational flying and no part of the group is upgrading F/Os before the two year mark anyway. A cadet/academy grad gets into the airline quicker and gets that all important seniority number climbing quicker.
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 670
Likes: 466
From: Australia
Really, because cadets have been employed in Australia since the early 60s. At a guess I’d say graduates of accelerated cadet/traineeship program would compromise 30-35% of all active Australian airline pilots and a fairly decent chunk of commands on heavies as well. Unless they’ve managed to fool all
the C&T staff around the country then I’d say they’re very much ‘getting the job done’.
the C&T staff around the country then I’d say they’re very much ‘getting the job done’.
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 324
Likes: 547
From: Melbourne, Australia
Really, because cadets have been employed in Australia since the early 60s. At a guess I’d say graduates of accelerated cadet/traineeship program would compromise 30-35% of all active Australian airline pilots and a fairly decent chunk of commands on heavies as well. Unless they’ve managed to fool all
the C&T staff around the country then I’d say they’re very much ‘getting the job done’.
the C&T staff around the country then I’d say they’re very much ‘getting the job done’.
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,712
Likes: 602
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 670
Likes: 466
From: Australia
But even if it wasn’t then two people who graduated from a CPL course at the same time, one from an academy and one from a ‘normal’ school, would both still reach airline captaincy (and this would just be for QLink as the first available upgrade) at the same time, except the path for the academy grad is more secure.
I would argue you would have been in a much more secure job working for RFDS, Careflight, Hardys, Hinterland, GAM… over the last 5-10 years then QLink or Jetstar. Both have had multiple base closures and significant time where they just stopped paying you!
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 324
Likes: 547
From: Melbourne, Australia
Why do you think working in GA is not secure?
I would argue you would have been in a much more secure job working for RFDS, Careflight, Hardys, Hinterland, GAM… over the last 5-10 years then QLink or Jetstar. Both have had multiple base closures and significant time where they just stopped paying you!
I would argue you would have been in a much more secure job working for RFDS, Careflight, Hardys, Hinterland, GAM… over the last 5-10 years then QLink or Jetstar. Both have had multiple base closures and significant time where they just stopped paying you!
what a life
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,599
Likes: 602
From: Australia
It is clear where dre's vested interests lie. Of course there is a place for these academies BUT I think it is wrong that the taxpayers rather than the airlines are being forced to make the investment in their training.
I get to see the ones that have done the course and similar ones and have had nothing at the end of it; coming to me with a useless resume, a massive, massive debt and a lot of regrets. According to them they are the vast majority and if they had their time again would never have done it that way.
Anecdotal I know, but I wouldn't trust stats from the people who are running the courses either.
I get to see the ones that have done the course and similar ones and have had nothing at the end of it; coming to me with a useless resume, a massive, massive debt and a lot of regrets. According to them they are the vast majority and if they had their time again would never have done it that way.
Anecdotal I know, but I wouldn't trust stats from the people who are running the courses either.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,599
Likes: 602
From: Australia
I'm very aware of how the HELP system works. Until the person pays it ALL back, which may never happen, it IS taxpayer funded. That money doesn't grow on a tree. It has gone to the training provider, it is not building infrastructure, hospitals, etc.
I am concerned with the ones who DON'T make it because that training they have had is of no use to GA. I talk to a lot of employers. They all need people with command time. People who have gone out there, had some adventures, learned their boundaries and learned from experience rather than follow the bouncing ball of an integrated course.
Watch Trent Robinson's latest podcast. Flight Training Australia Podcast: Ep 122 - Training Standards in Crisis? on Apple Podcasts
The course is not comparable to "regular" schools, we can do a non-integrated (self-study) job ready CPL with 200 hours (around 125 command) for about $80,000. Straight into GA. Then they can get on the ladder and chose from a range of jobs and go on to airlines if they choose to. Many see how toxic it is and choose not to.
It's better than the other way round, being on the scrapheap before you have even begun, or having to spend a lot of money to get some useful experience, like all the unlucky ones who don't make it because their "airline" skills weren't good enough and are not transferable to any other area of aviation.
I am concerned with the ones who DON'T make it because that training they have had is of no use to GA. I talk to a lot of employers. They all need people with command time. People who have gone out there, had some adventures, learned their boundaries and learned from experience rather than follow the bouncing ball of an integrated course.
Watch Trent Robinson's latest podcast. Flight Training Australia Podcast: Ep 122 - Training Standards in Crisis? on Apple Podcasts
The course is not comparable to "regular" schools, we can do a non-integrated (self-study) job ready CPL with 200 hours (around 125 command) for about $80,000. Straight into GA. Then they can get on the ladder and chose from a range of jobs and go on to airlines if they choose to. Many see how toxic it is and choose not to.
It's better than the other way round, being on the scrapheap before you have even begun, or having to spend a lot of money to get some useful experience, like all the unlucky ones who don't make it because their "airline" skills weren't good enough and are not transferable to any other area of aviation.
Last edited by Clare Prop; 23rd April 2024 at 06:23.
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,646
Likes: 766
From: Australia
It will take a young person decades of full time work to save up the cash required to pay for training up front.
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,646
Likes: 766
From: Australia
Well here's where we deviate.