Qantas Group Training Academy at Wellcamp

[Newhairdo]

Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was

How exactly are they throwing money at it? It would appear the tax payer is the only one whose money is being thrown around.

There is still a cost to the business, eg cost of administering the programme, additional TR training required etc. VA used to pay cadets a salary whilst at FTA.
So there will be costs that QF are bearing that we don’t know about.
At least QF are actually doing something to help address the issue of pilot supply in Australia. Who else is doing it?

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Originally Posted by Newhairdo

There is still a cost to the business, eg cost of administering the programme, additional TR training required etc. VA used to pay cadets a salary whilst at FTA.
So there will be costs that QF are bearing that we don’t know about.

Or there isn't. QF's vaunted "Scholarships" only offer to cover the accommodation costs of the winners. Even QF is not stupid enough to pay the fees their "own" school is charging.

Originally Posted by Newhairdo

At least QF are actually doing something to help address the issue of pilot supply in Australia. Who else is doing it?

By likely 99%, the taxpayer.

[Clare Prop]

Originally Posted by dr dre

The Graduate Outcomes Survey is only those graduates of a course that are in full/part time employment. Not with a specific employer. I would guess almost all graduates from the QGPA are employed in the industry.

If the numbers were something to be proud of then presumbly they would be published and we wouldn't have to guess.
They've been running it long enough now to get relevant dataset.

[Clare Prop]

Originally Posted by Newhairdo

There is still a cost to the business, eg cost of administering the programme, additional TR training required etc. VA used to pay cadets a salary whilst at FTA.
So there will be costs that QF are bearing that we don’t know about.
At least QF are actually doing something to help address the issue of pilot supply in Australia. Who else is doing it?

Qantas say they are providing 50 scholarships over 5 years, to cover the cost of accommodation and meals. That's $300,000 a year. Can you show what other contributions they make other than branding, which does have a value, but not necessarily an actual cost to the academy.

FTA administer the programme and you can follow the links to see what the costs are, including the 20% loan fee if they go down that funding route. this 20% doesn't go back to the taxpayer who provide the money, it is added to the loan, taxpayer gets the indexation only until it is paid back in full.

Who else is doing it? There are many many other options and training providers doing CPL training in Australia, with and without the government funding; this academy is not the only option and it doesn't give any guarantees to graduates.

4. If I successfully graduate from the Academy will I be guaranteed a job at Qantas?

No. Qantas Group Pilot Academy graduating students who have successfully completed all the above course requirements by their graduation date will be extended an invitation to attend a Qantas Group Accelerate Assessment Centre. If successful, graduates may be eligible for employment as a pilot with QantasLink, Jetstar or Network Aviation Australia.

I read this to say that anyone who may have stumbled along the way for whatever reason and needed some extra training, which is normal as no student is perfect and **** happens, won't get a look in. I would like to see stats on how many do successfully complete by graduation date.

Graduates

Once you've graduatated from the Academy, a world of opportunities awaits. Some of our graduates are now employed as pilots in the Qantas Group, others in the aviation industry, and some have returned to the Academy as instructors.

Why "some"? How many is "some"? Anyone taking on a massive, life changing loan, should be given something better than "some" to make comparisons of options.
Why not publish the results?

If Qantas was doing what the Speedbird PIlot Academy is, ie taking on up to 100 fully funded cadets as a guaranteed pathway to the airline that would be a different story, but this is nothing like. Future Pilots (ba.com)

Just asking for numbers. Such as, how many who start the course get to graduate by the graduation date?
I'm thinking the numbers would probably be similar to other CPL courses, but it would be interesting to know for sure if this academy has a higher success rate than some of the other pathways in terms of graduates and employment after graduating.

[Clare Prop]

Originally Posted by dr dre

Well we as a society have decided to support the cost of higher education via HECS/FEE-HELP rather than demand young people pay 6 figure costs to get their careers off to a start. As if they weren’t burdened enough with higher housing and living costs and increasingly unstable employment.

You’re free to start an extreme anarcho libertarian party and defund government support of higher education if you wish, I don’t think you’ll get many votes.

Dre, I don't think anyone is saying that. But the other courses that allow students to borrow that amount are medicine, dentistry and veterinary science. Not only do these have a high ATAR entry requirement, they also have more stable employment probability and ability to repay at the end.
I think ALL higher education funded by HELP loans should publish statistiscs that allow the taxpayer to see if they are getting value for their HELP loan dollars.

[Newhairdo]

Originally Posted by Clare Prop

Qantas say they are providing 50 scholarships over 5 years, to cover the cost of accommodation and meals. That's $300,000 a year. Can you show what other contributions they make other than branding, which does have a value, but not necessarily an actual cost to the academy.

FTA administer the programme and you can follow the links to see what the costs are, including the 20% loan fee if they go down that funding route. this 20% doesn't go back to the taxpayer who provide the money, it is added to the loan, taxpayer gets the indexation only until it is paid back in full.

Who else is doing it? There are many many other options and training providers doing CPL training in Australia, with and without the government funding; this academy is not the only option and it doesn't give any guarantees to graduates.

4. If I successfully graduate from the Academy will I be guaranteed a job at Qantas?

No. Qantas Group Pilot Academy graduating students who have successfully completed all the above course requirements by their graduation date will be extended an invitation to attend a Qantas Group Accelerate Assessment Centre. If successful, graduates may be eligible for employment as a pilot with QantasLink, Jetstar or Network Aviation Australia.

I read this to say that anyone who may have stumbled along the way for whatever reason and needed some extra training, which is normal as no student is perfect and **** happens, won't get a look in. I would like to see stats on how many do successfully complete by graduation date.

Graduates

Once you've graduatated from the Academy, a world of opportunities awaits. Some of our graduates are now employed as pilots in the Qantas Group, others in the aviation industry, and some have returned to the Academy as instructors.

Why "some"? How many is "some"? Anyone taking on a massive, life changing loan, should be given something better than "some" to make comparisons of options.
Why not publish the results?

If Qantas was doing what the Speedbird PIlot Academy is, ie taking on up to 100 fully funded cadets as a guaranteed pathway to the airline that would be a different story, but this is nothing like. Future Pilots (ba.com)

Just asking for numbers. Such as, how many who start the course get to graduate by the graduation date?
I'm thinking the numbers would probably be similar to other CPL courses, but it would be interesting to know for sure if this academy has a higher success rate than some of the other pathways in terms of graduates and employment after graduating.

So you are trying to say that it’s zero cost to QF? That's incorrect.
As previously mentioned, they will have additional internal costs that are not published. The $300k is just part of it.
At least those who attend Wellcamp have a great chance of getting into QF, subject to operational requirements.
What is any other Australian airline doing to help new and aspiring pilots? Nothing!

You mention BA, but they are a bigger operation with a fixed retirement age, so it’s much easier for them to plan ahead.
One thing is certain, if more airlines don’t start to offer some assistance, either the QF or BA/ANZ/TUI/RYR/EZY way, then they will struggle to get enough pilots for their future needs.

[Clare Prop]

But can you quantify "great chance" "additional internal costs" "much easier". "one thing is certain", "enough pilots for future needs"

These are not quantifiable terms and without a citation are anecdotal.

Are Qantas going to be paying the HELP loans off for the successful ones? How much is Qantas actually investing (ie risking) in these people during training? What is the measurable difference in outcomes between people who go to this academy and people who train via anyn of the other pathways?

The old pilot shortage lure has been around for decades. There are still plenty of resumes coming across my desk. Many fro m these academies. They all share the same thing...not enough command time.

[Newhairdo]

Originally Posted by Clare Prop

But can you quantify "great chance" "additional internal costs" "much easier". "one thing is certain", "enough pilots for future needs"

These are not quantifiable terms and without a citation are anecdotal.

Are Qantas going to be paying the HELP loans off for the successful ones? How much is Qantas actually investing (ie risking) in these people during training?

The old pilot shortage lure has been around for decades. There are still plenty of resumes coming across my desk. Many fro m these academies. They all share the same thing...not enough command time.

I understand that for non airline flying, things like command time etc is important. But QF don’t care about this, they just want pilots who can be hired into the RHS of one of their aircraft. For these lucky candidates, QF will be investing in significant additional training, and that carries a cost. Most will pass, but some will fail. I have no idea if QF have a training wage or if they just pay FO1 rate (if such a thing exists in Sunstate), but if it’s the standard FO rate then that’s a great help to paying off the loans.
Visits by QF managers to Wellcamp are a cost. QF will have a different selection process in play for those going through the academy and onto QF.
Some of your requests are not straightforward to quantify in a way that might satisfy you. For example, great chance is just that for the lucky candidate - from college straight into the RHS at QF, with a long and lucrative career ahead of them, To me, any many others, that’s a great chance.
Regarding the pilot shortage, look around the world. Many large carriers have restarted cadet schemes and many pay, part pay, sponsor etc because they can see what’s coming. Even ANZ are getting in on the act. In the USA, flight schools have paid programmes to get trainees to 1500 hours so that they can get into airlines. Majors have been hiring like crazy, with Atlas sponsoring foreign pilots.
It sounds like you don’t have problems getting pilots, and that’s great. You are obviously a good employer but some are not so good and struggle.
Maybe my comments are anecdotal, but it doesn’t make them less valid

[Clare Prop]

Originally Posted by Newhairdo

I understand that for non airline flying, things like command time etc is important. But QF don’t care about this, they just want pilots who can be hired into the RHS of one of their aircraft. For these lucky candidates, QF will be investing in significant additional training, and that carries a cost. Most will pass, but some will fail. I have no idea if QF have a training wage or if they just pay FO1 rate (if such a thing exists in Sunstate), but if it’s the standard FO rate then that’s a great help to paying off the loans.
Visits by QF managers to Wellcamp are a cost. QF will have a different selection process in play for those going through the academy and onto QF.
Some of your requests are not straightforward to quantify in a way that might satisfy you. For example, great chance is just that for the lucky candidate - from college straight into the RHS at QF, with a long and lucrative career ahead of them, To me, any many others, that’s a great chance.
Regarding the pilot shortage, look around the world. Many large carriers have restarted cadet schemes and many pay, part pay, sponsor etc because they can see what’s coming. Even ANZ are getting in on the act. In the USA, flight schools have paid programmes to get trainees to 1500 hours so that they can get into airlines. Majors have been hiring like crazy, with Atlas sponsoring foreign pilots.
It sounds like you don’t have problems getting pilots, and that’s great. You are obviously a good employer but some are not so good and struggle.
Maybe my comments are anecdotal, but it doesn’t make them less valid

Yes it does, if you want credibility you need to cite your sources and back up what you say, otherwise it just looks like a sales pitch.
These are not unreasonable questions to ask if someone is taking on an eye watering amount of student debt.

"For example, great chance is just that for the lucky candidate - from college straight into the RHS at QF, with a long and lucrative career ahead of them, To me, any many others, that’s a great chance".

So, it is down to luck and chance? Who is taking the risk? Not Qantas. The risk is entirely being taken by the student and the taxpayer is underwriting it.
If the odds are so good then why won't the banks touch student loans for trainee pilots?

[Newhairdo]

Originally Posted by Clare Prop

Yes it does, if you want credibility, otherwise it just looks like a sales pitch.
These are not unreasonable questions to ask if someone is taking on an eye watering amount of student debt.

"For example, great chance is just that for the lucky candidate - from college straight into the RHS at QF, with a long and lucrative career ahead of them, To me, any many others, that’s a great chance".

So, it is down to luck and chance? Who is taking the risk? Not Qantas. The risk is entirely being taken by the student and the taxpayer is underwriting it.
If the odds are so good then why won't the banks touch student loans for trainee pilots?

Its sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder over pilots getting loans to get qualified. It’s a scheme open to all.
Do you also sneer at those who take out loans to qualify as Doctors, Nurses, Dentists, Lawyers, Surveyors, Engineers and so on?
The risk is being taken by the individual. It’s no more of a risk to the taxpayer than a student doctor.

Im not sure what else you want. Some people are lucky enough to have a shot at getting into QF, some are not. yes, sometimes it’s down to luck. Right place right time, but that’s aviation the world over.
As I previously said, no other Aussie airline is offering this opportunity. Why would,you be against that?

[Hollywood1]

Are there any statistics on how many people start flying training through traditional flying schools self sponsored, work their way through GA and finally end up with a job at Qantas mainline, Jetstar or Qlink? What are their odds ending up in the Qantas group, just to compare?

[Lead Balloon]

Originally Posted by Newhairdo

Its sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder over pilots getting loans to get qualified. It’s a scheme open to all.
Do you also sneer at those who take out loans to qualify as Doctors, Nurses, Dentists, Lawyers, Surveyors, Engineers and so on?
The risk is being taken by the individual. It’s no more of a risk to the taxpayer than a student doctor.

Im not sure what else you want. Some people are lucky enough to have a shot at getting into QF, some are not. yes, sometimes it’s down to luck. Right place right time, but that’s aviation the world over.
As I previously said, no other Aussie airline is offering this opportunity. Why would,you be against that?

You seem to me to be deliberately twisting what Clare said. On my reading, Clare isn't "sneering" at the candidates. Clare is criticising those who are manipulating the candidates.

All of the graduate "Doctors, Nurses, Dentists, Lawyers, Surveyors [and] Engineers" I know have really good post-graduate jobs.

[Clare Prop]

Originally Posted by Newhairdo

Its sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder over pilots getting loans to get qualified. It’s a scheme open to all.
Do you also sneer at those who take out loans to qualify as Doctors, Nurses, Dentists, Lawyers, Surveyors, Engineers and so on?
The risk is being taken by the individual. It’s no more of a risk to the taxpayer than a student doctor.

Im not sure what else you want. Some people are lucky enough to have a shot at getting into QF, some are not. yes, sometimes it’s down to luck. Right place right time, but that’s aviation the world over.
As I previously said, no other Aussie airline is offering this opportunity. Why would,you be against that?

I am not sneering at anyone or against anything, just asking you to back up your claims. It's called critical thinking, a basic skill you learn at university. There are too many other questionable anecdotal "facts" in this industry. What I want is some solid, verifiable evidence to back up what you are saying. If you have a vested interest you should declare that also.

I do believe that governments have a responsibility to spend taxpayers money wisely and should be accountable with solid stats to show that there is a good return on investment, not just "Luck" or "Chance". Would you want them to say put out a tender to build a bridge and then hope that by luck or chance it might a) be needed b) get finished and c) be fit for purpose?

Low hour pilots are plentiful and many of my students have gone on to QF and other airlines without going through an academy. Only someone with a vested interest would imply that this was the only way, or that flying for Qantas is the only job opportunity.

If Qantas need pilots, they should do what BA are doing. Instead they are moving all the risk on to the student, underwritten by the taxpayer, because under the current system they can.

[Newhairdo]

Originally Posted by Clare Prop

I am not sneering at anyone or against anything, just asking you to back up your claims. It's called critical thinking, a basic skill you learn at university. There are too many other questionable anecdotal "facts" in this industry. What I want is some solid, verifiable evidence to back up what you are saying.

I do believe that governments have a responsibility to spend taxpayers money wisely and should be accountable with solid stats to show that there is a good return on investment, not just "Luck" or "Chance". Would you want them to say put out a tender to build a bridge and then hope that by luck or chance it might a) be needed b) get finished and c) be fit for purpose?

Low hour pilots are plentiful and many of many of my students have gone on to QF and other airlines without going through an academy. Only someone with a vested interest would imply that this was the only way, or that flying for Qantas is the only job opportunity.

If Qantas need pilots, they should do what BA are doing. Instead they are moving all the risk on to the student, because they can.

I’m not saying it’s the only way. It is, however, A way.
Im certainly not saying that Qantas is the only job opportunity, it isn’t.
But I’m not going to knock them because they are the only Aussie airline to offer something like this. Good on them for getting into the game.
Where are the stats to show that other Uni courses paid for through HELP loans are a good investment. Aviation needs to be treated equally with other qualifications (like medicine, engineering etc) rather than being seen as a rich persons job.

Realistically, when you look at the needs of modern airliners, airlines should be offering pathways via the MPL where they are taught to fly airliners from day 1. Getting a CPL with the associated solo time has little value for someone joining an airline on day 1.

And just as an FYI incase you think I’m a Qantas stooge, or even a fan, I’m ex GA, ex Charter Pilot, ex Turboprop, ex Airline
Never been in the military or in Qantas

But I am a fan of any opportunity for aspiring pilots

[Clare Prop]

Originally Posted by dr dre

I was told once that only 1/3rd of all flying school CPL grads end up landing a permanent pilot job. Is that accurate? Don’t know, I would suspect more, but what I can say with certainty is 0% will end up in a major airline 6 months after graduation, vs 2/3rds coming out of the QGPA (and the rest maybe after a few years industry experience if they show the right attitude).

If anything it’s the proponents of ‘traditional’ flying schools who are selling wannabes a con.

Again, cite your sources.
"I was told" "Don't know" "I would suspect more"...

"0%" vs "2/3" Let's go with this one. Why can't you back it up?
I can say that "I have heard" from graduates that your 66% is closer to 8%, but I'm not claiming that to be a fact as it is anecdotal from people who did the course and told me they were cast into the big wide world at the end to compete with people who had followed a different path.

You are making a big assumption that all CPLs only want to go straight from flying school to the RHS of an airlline. Are you saying that pilots who choose to work in any other aspect of the industry have been "conned"?

Look, if the academy is delivering these numbers then that is great, but if they are placing 66% of grads straight into a RHS (which still leave 34% "unlucky" ones) then why aren't they publishing that? and instead using vague terms like "some"?

[Clare Prop]

Nonsense, I most certainly wasn't rich, I worked four jobs to pay for my training, I won a scholarship to pay for my instructor rating-and most of my self funded students have gone out and done FIFO or similar high paying careers first, not had rich parents but self motivated and already successful, with a career to fall back on too.
Never have I asked for any payments "up front", I'm not running a Ponzi scheme.
I don't have time now, but with your calculations let me know how long it will take them to pay off their HELP loan, including the 20% "admin" and indexation and how much it will have ballooned on an FO wages for five years.

[Newhairdo]

Originally Posted by Clare Prop

You are making a big assumption that all CPLs only want to go straight from flying school to the RHS of an airlline. Are you saying that pilots who choose to work in any other aspect of the industry have been "conned"?
"?

In my experience, most CPLs want to go to the RHS of an airliner. And everything they do is with this goal in mind.

Without HELP funding, who will become a pilot? That’s an easy one to answer - it will be those with wealthy parents. You need proof - drop into the crew room of any airline in the western world and you will find that the vast majority of occupants are white middle class males. This needs to change, and schemes like the QF scheme, with HELP support can go a large way towards achieving this.

[Newhairdo]

Originally Posted by Clare Prop

I don't have time now, but with your calculations let me know how long it will take them to pay off their HELP loan, including the 20% "admin" and indexation and how much it will have ballooned on an FO wages for five years.

About the same length of time as a doctor, Vet, Engineer

[Hollywood1]

Originally Posted by Newhairdo

In my experience, most CPLs want to go to the RHS of an airliner. And everything they do is with this goal in mind.

Same with my experience and I've been in the industry for a few decades and 1/3 of that as a GA flight instructor.

[Hoosten]

The taxpayer is NOT funding these schemes, they are in fact the bank. The candidate is obligated to repay the money loaned. It is rumoured that the government makes more money from these loans than any other revenue sector they collect from.