Qantas Group Training Academy at Wellcamp
Joined: Dec 2017
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 15
Likes: 1
From: Australia
The refueller tells me there's a handful of QFPP graduates about to start at Jetstar as F/Os on the A320, with whatever handful of hours they have at the end of the program.
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,712
Likes: 602
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: Mar 2005
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 6,563
Likes: 952
From: Aus
why hate on the cadets, the rest of the world has used low hour cadets for decades
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 61
Likes: 26
From: Lalaland
Joined: Apr 2024
Posts: 2
Likes: 4
From: Aus
Take CAUTION when thinking of getting trained here. I have many colleagues who are on the active hold who haven't gone anywhere in over a year. They graduate a new course every 5 weeks and overall hundreds get added to this "active hold file" many not going anywhere. It is just a marketing tool (over promising, knowing they'll never hire) for FTA to pump sausages out. The theme is that ex students who only graduated within months before, teach the next wave of students. It is hard for FTA students to get jobs within the GA industry as operators know they are on the active hold and unlikely to hire them due to experience in a diamond. You end up with a $135,000ish HECS with terrible prospects. Son or daughters of qantas pilots get unfavoured treatment during hiring process, with their parents sneaking them in for simulator sessions on the exact simulator they do the actual recruitment process in. So its an unfair assessment. If you are a child of a qantas group pilot though not that bad of an option as they get pulled off the active hold by internal politics and phone calls between staff and recruitment even if they have lower assessment criteria than others. 2 of my friends made the active hold one a qantas child with lower assessment results and flight training/exam results than the non qantas child, and the qantas child got pulled in immediately.
I tried building hours with a GA operator but couldn't hack the disrespect and lack of appreciation for hard work in the industry. Went back to IT earning as much as a mainline FO with a much better lifestyle, less stress and flying as a hobby instead. If you really want to pursue it, I'd recommend going to a smaller flight school, who take the time with you, you are able to network with GA operators at the same time. Possibly flight schools that are combined with a charter company. Get an older instructor who has spent years in a GA and actually teaches you the commercial side of things.
I tried building hours with a GA operator but couldn't hack the disrespect and lack of appreciation for hard work in the industry. Went back to IT earning as much as a mainline FO with a much better lifestyle, less stress and flying as a hobby instead. If you really want to pursue it, I'd recommend going to a smaller flight school, who take the time with you, you are able to network with GA operators at the same time. Possibly flight schools that are combined with a charter company. Get an older instructor who has spent years in a GA and actually teaches you the commercial side of things.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 342
Likes: 63
From: Here and there
Loan from the government! Wrong. It is the government giving out a load using Taxpayer money. MY money!
Flight schools are money hungry and that spin about get a flying job straight after getting the CPL and then pay back the loan is absolute BS!
Try and get a car loan or a house loan and see what happens.
'So son you have a loan of $150K hanging over your head?' 'Next please and close the door on your way out'.
I am of the view that we have too many CPLs being trained each year compared to the number of flying jobs available. But those who do not get a job and or took up a VET FEE loan still have to repay my taxpayer money. Those that get a job will typically will not be pulling $150K in the first or second oi third year of being a paid CPL. And they still have to get that payback mill stone from around their neck as their years slip by.
R
Flight schools are money hungry and that spin about get a flying job straight after getting the CPL and then pay back the loan is absolute BS!
Try and get a car loan or a house loan and see what happens.
'So son you have a loan of $150K hanging over your head?' 'Next please and close the door on your way out'.
I am of the view that we have too many CPLs being trained each year compared to the number of flying jobs available. But those who do not get a job and or took up a VET FEE loan still have to repay my taxpayer money. Those that get a job will typically will not be pulling $150K in the first or second oi third year of being a paid CPL. And they still have to get that payback mill stone from around their neck as their years slip by.
R
Joined: Jun 2006
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 2,698
Likes: 792
From: 3rd rock from the sun
I don’t hold much hope for Jacky Boi’s career in this industry if that’s his/her/them/its attitude at the very beginning.
Disrespect in GA? Hahahaha, welcome mate.
What about the disrespect you’ve shown to the candidates who were fortunate enough to get into QLink or similar that you’re now hanging **** on because of your perceptions about their recruitment?
Disrespect in GA? Hahahaha, welcome mate.
What about the disrespect you’ve shown to the candidates who were fortunate enough to get into QLink or similar that you’re now hanging **** on because of your perceptions about their recruitment?
Joined: Apr 2024
Posts: 2
Likes: 4
From: Aus
For the opinions above. I agree with RWY16's comments, I have already paid off 2/3 off my debt I paid in lump sum payments to quickly reduce debt to enable greater borrowing power for business and personal loans for opportunities im currently pursuing.
To answer Dr Dre that's good to hear that it has gotten better. I was only of the earlier groups. I have heard a lot of personal stories from others there who struggled to get jobs that wasn't the case for me very fortunately in GA, so I am grateful for that. Caused a bit of stress for fellows friends who were in the same course. You make a good point about sausage factories I agree airlines would like that. But I mean in terms of going to GA after graduating from a factory, I'd rather be taught from someone older with a lot more experience having thousands of hours in GA (I do understand that its hard to find these people and they aren't as readily available obviously), just if I were to choose a different option that's what I'd look for. I didn't have access to qantas recruiting staff criteria and results, but we all had access to everyones training results in our course, that was very transparent, instructors/teachers brought those up in front of us multiple times and its very easy to see where everyone ranks. In terms of the actual HR stuff from qantas though of course they keep it confidential but talking amongst the group to all the friends in the course, you hear how people performed in sims and their interview and it was clearly below yours or others and they still got ahead. Im not saying it's just me, but there were others in my course who didn't make it and felt the same way after everyone shared their experiences. Your last point yeah I should have done more research prior and I'm sure you can target courses with a much higher chance or guaranteed job. I would most likely go for those cadetships where you have a guaranteed job with a GA company after your training.
For morno - Im not hanging **** on any candidates, we were all very close basically a family for year. We were all very close and transparent. I'm still really good friends with the majority of my course and a lot of them who went on to subsidiaries,I have nothing against them and commend them. I know a lot of them were much more smarter and quality candidates than me and I don't fault anyone but myself. I was trying to give a perspective from the inside, as I feel as though the academy is very glamorised, and just to know that you are a customer when you go there and not to forget it. I love flying and I continue to fly privately at the moment fairly often. You're right maybe I'm not cut out to be in the airline industry. But after working GA for nearly 2 years I understand what it's like now and the truths or realities of the industry. Im not sure why you're laughing at me for bringing up disrespect in GA. Do you not think you should be respected when you go to work, and I don't mean treated like a god, I mean treated like a human, respected, spoken to with decency, not micromanaged all the time, not appreciated for extra effort you put into work that goes above and beyond your job. You may laugh, but you don't want to be the one building someone else's empire and getting underpaid and treated terribly for hard effort. Spending years to work your way up to a small airline as a first officer and still get paid basically the same as a tradie. Judging by your join date im assuming you may already be in the airlines and that's great, but people fail to mention the grind to get where you get. The low pay and underappreciation with the responsibility and stress you have in GA is not worth getting paid the award or near it, where cleaners are making more than you an hour. I understand you have to start small and grind to move up, but I wanted to give my perspective in that I personally don't think it's worth it. All the time away from family, poor pay, extra study you need to put it beyond work hours, wasting your youth. When you can build a business, earn the money that gives you a comfortable sufficient lifestyle and fly privately if that is your passion. I was not trying to be aggressive in my first post. But yes I do agree I think my friends which I love who I met in GA they are a lot tougher than me, they have a different mindset, they are happy to sacrifice a lot for what they want to achieve in. their career, I totally understand that. But for me I'm not willing to sacrifice reduce pay, which means I can't start compounding that until later in life, being away from friends and family for so long.
To answer Dr Dre that's good to hear that it has gotten better. I was only of the earlier groups. I have heard a lot of personal stories from others there who struggled to get jobs that wasn't the case for me very fortunately in GA, so I am grateful for that. Caused a bit of stress for fellows friends who were in the same course. You make a good point about sausage factories I agree airlines would like that. But I mean in terms of going to GA after graduating from a factory, I'd rather be taught from someone older with a lot more experience having thousands of hours in GA (I do understand that its hard to find these people and they aren't as readily available obviously), just if I were to choose a different option that's what I'd look for. I didn't have access to qantas recruiting staff criteria and results, but we all had access to everyones training results in our course, that was very transparent, instructors/teachers brought those up in front of us multiple times and its very easy to see where everyone ranks. In terms of the actual HR stuff from qantas though of course they keep it confidential but talking amongst the group to all the friends in the course, you hear how people performed in sims and their interview and it was clearly below yours or others and they still got ahead. Im not saying it's just me, but there were others in my course who didn't make it and felt the same way after everyone shared their experiences. Your last point yeah I should have done more research prior and I'm sure you can target courses with a much higher chance or guaranteed job. I would most likely go for those cadetships where you have a guaranteed job with a GA company after your training.
For morno - Im not hanging **** on any candidates, we were all very close basically a family for year. We were all very close and transparent. I'm still really good friends with the majority of my course and a lot of them who went on to subsidiaries,I have nothing against them and commend them. I know a lot of them were much more smarter and quality candidates than me and I don't fault anyone but myself. I was trying to give a perspective from the inside, as I feel as though the academy is very glamorised, and just to know that you are a customer when you go there and not to forget it. I love flying and I continue to fly privately at the moment fairly often. You're right maybe I'm not cut out to be in the airline industry. But after working GA for nearly 2 years I understand what it's like now and the truths or realities of the industry. Im not sure why you're laughing at me for bringing up disrespect in GA. Do you not think you should be respected when you go to work, and I don't mean treated like a god, I mean treated like a human, respected, spoken to with decency, not micromanaged all the time, not appreciated for extra effort you put into work that goes above and beyond your job. You may laugh, but you don't want to be the one building someone else's empire and getting underpaid and treated terribly for hard effort. Spending years to work your way up to a small airline as a first officer and still get paid basically the same as a tradie. Judging by your join date im assuming you may already be in the airlines and that's great, but people fail to mention the grind to get where you get. The low pay and underappreciation with the responsibility and stress you have in GA is not worth getting paid the award or near it, where cleaners are making more than you an hour. I understand you have to start small and grind to move up, but I wanted to give my perspective in that I personally don't think it's worth it. All the time away from family, poor pay, extra study you need to put it beyond work hours, wasting your youth. When you can build a business, earn the money that gives you a comfortable sufficient lifestyle and fly privately if that is your passion. I was not trying to be aggressive in my first post. But yes I do agree I think my friends which I love who I met in GA they are a lot tougher than me, they have a different mindset, they are happy to sacrifice a lot for what they want to achieve in. their career, I totally understand that. But for me I'm not willing to sacrifice reduce pay, which means I can't start compounding that until later in life, being away from friends and family for so long.
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 324
Likes: 547
From: Melbourne, Australia
I’ll chime in here.
This idea of GA pilots coming up to the airlines with thousands of hours of no SOPs or poor SOPs is horse ****. It’s easily learned. Stop spreading this myth that you can’t teach a late 20s or mid 30s, 40s etc pilot new SOPs when they finally hit the airline world.
There is very switched on low hour pilots who grasp stuff quick and slower learners who probably need a few thousand hours GA to help the transition into multi crew jet ops.
I’ve also seen experienced GA pilots who are absolute dog ****. Some of which are in the airlines and I wouldn’t trust them to fly VFR in a c172.
”Teaching them higher standard SOPs from day 1”. Yeah right. Most GA schools out there hold a decent standard on paper/SOPs. However, go talk to testing officers out there. It’s changed in the last half decade. There’s a lot of low hour g3s teaching dog **** who don’t know basic theory themselves. And this applies to the cadet school at wellcamp too.
CPL candidates going up for tests who can’t read a TAF, or tell you alternate requirements because “my instructor said that airport is always good to go”. The list goes on. I regularly talk to testing officers and the standard anecdotally has fallen hard particularly when it comes to theory and knowledge. Literally hearing stories of CPL candidates who aren’t RPL standard on test day. Never make it into the aircraft. That is a **** reflection on the instructors and any school that allows a student to get put up for test who cannot get through theory needs to bring those instructors in for tea and bickies.
There is a stigma towards these diamond cadets. Some of it deserved and not always through fault of their own. Shiny jet-school syndrome catches many out.
This idea of GA pilots coming up to the airlines with thousands of hours of no SOPs or poor SOPs is horse ****. It’s easily learned. Stop spreading this myth that you can’t teach a late 20s or mid 30s, 40s etc pilot new SOPs when they finally hit the airline world.
There is very switched on low hour pilots who grasp stuff quick and slower learners who probably need a few thousand hours GA to help the transition into multi crew jet ops.
I’ve also seen experienced GA pilots who are absolute dog ****. Some of which are in the airlines and I wouldn’t trust them to fly VFR in a c172.
”Teaching them higher standard SOPs from day 1”. Yeah right. Most GA schools out there hold a decent standard on paper/SOPs. However, go talk to testing officers out there. It’s changed in the last half decade. There’s a lot of low hour g3s teaching dog **** who don’t know basic theory themselves. And this applies to the cadet school at wellcamp too.
CPL candidates going up for tests who can’t read a TAF, or tell you alternate requirements because “my instructor said that airport is always good to go”. The list goes on. I regularly talk to testing officers and the standard anecdotally has fallen hard particularly when it comes to theory and knowledge. Literally hearing stories of CPL candidates who aren’t RPL standard on test day. Never make it into the aircraft. That is a **** reflection on the instructors and any school that allows a student to get put up for test who cannot get through theory needs to bring those instructors in for tea and bickies.
There is a stigma towards these diamond cadets. Some of it deserved and not always through fault of their own. Shiny jet-school syndrome catches many out.
Last edited by soseg; 10th April 2024 at 07:11.
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 987
Likes: 197
From: Mexico City
I'm sure this may have been said in this thread already, but I'm pretty sure this flying school only exists to produce a pilot oversupply and keep wages low.
After a quick look on LinkedIn, it appears the vast majority of QGPA grads are not working for any Qantas group airline or flying in GA. If anyone has some stats debunking this please let me know. I wonder how long they will hang around before giving up on the Airline Pilot fairytale.
After a quick look on LinkedIn, it appears the vast majority of QGPA grads are not working for any Qantas group airline or flying in GA. If anyone has some stats debunking this please let me know. I wonder how long they will hang around before giving up on the Airline Pilot fairytale.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 793
Likes: 297
From: sierra village
I’ve said this before, only three factors for a “successful” career… Luck, Perseverance or a rich, well connected Mummy (or Daddy).
Note: Success is in the eye of the beholder and certainly does not mean Happiness. As most of us have discovered by the time we hit 40.
Note: Success is in the eye of the beholder and certainly does not mean Happiness. As most of us have discovered by the time we hit 40.
Joined: Apr 2024
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 187
Likes: 232
From: Cairns
I think they’re either over 100 (or almost there) pilots hired from the Academy into Link and JQ. Last I heard there was practically nobody on hold with JQ and grads who pass the assessment centre are getting starts pretty quick. Massive appetite projected for the rest of 2024 too. Only a matter of time before other AOC’s get their training sorted for low time pilots then it’ll be game on.
The early days it was a different story because of the way it all started up, but they seem to be starting to get the hang of it now.
The early days it was a different story because of the way it all started up, but they seem to be starting to get the hang of it now.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 108
Likes: 49
From: You know where the Opera House is? Well....no where near there.
It'd be nice if they publicly stated the success rate of applicants who end up getting jobs in the airlines. Being upfront to these young men and women before they take on the huge loans would be nice. Not too sure if they do or not..
Joined: Apr 2024
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 187
Likes: 232
From: Cairns
But you are right, my belief is that transparency and honesty is a far better approach than radio silence or cherry picked figures that fit today’s narrative. Come to think of it that’s probably why I’m not in Corporate Comms 😜
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,599
Likes: 602
From: Australia
Do they exist to flood the market with pilots? No, they exist to divert an eye watering amount of taxpayers' dollars into a few pockets and to build a business model that makes it very difficult for other training providers to compete with.
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 987
Likes: 197
From: Mexico City
Free market? So a flying school that officially has no guarantee of getting you a job at Qantas has Qantas and Pilot Academy in it's name?
How does any flying school in Australia have a chance at competing against a flying school with Qantas in it's name?
What other flight school has unlimited leverage of a national brand?
Even though they officially "don't have a pathway to any Qantas Group Airline" they certainly imply unofficially that you will be ahead of everyone else applying if you train here.
Anyone who studied economics knows that to keep labour costs down you need more workers than jobs. QGPA is aiming to pump out graduates to make this a reality.
You can dress it up any way you want but please stop making out that QGPA is doing a public service.
How does any flying school in Australia have a chance at competing against a flying school with Qantas in it's name?
What other flight school has unlimited leverage of a national brand?
Even though they officially "don't have a pathway to any Qantas Group Airline" they certainly imply unofficially that you will be ahead of everyone else applying if you train here.
Anyone who studied economics knows that to keep labour costs down you need more workers than jobs. QGPA is aiming to pump out graduates to make this a reality.
You can dress it up any way you want but please stop making out that QGPA is doing a public service.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 569
Likes: 24
From: Accruing MilliSiverts
Have noticed at Wellcamp and also Wagga, self-appointed air traffic controllers (senior instructors?) hopping on the radio and ‘directing’ aircraft to go here and there and do this and that.
Probably well-intentioned to alleviate congestion etc but suggest you don’t. Often it simply adds to the confusion and may also place you in a precarious place legally should an incident occur
Probably well-intentioned to alleviate congestion etc but suggest you don’t. Often it simply adds to the confusion and may also place you in a precarious place legally should an incident occur
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 10
Likes: 1
From: Sydney
The 1960s scheme called the Cadet Pilot scheme did. The 1990s scheme didn’t. Most got in but there were a couple who didn’t.
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 987
Likes: 197
From: Mexico City
It's a free market, if other training providers are having difficulty competing with the Academy they need to change the way they operate and the product they produce. It's not incumbent on an airline to ensure the viability of 'regular' flying schools, if the nature of the market has changed then those other training providers will either adapt or perish.
You missed the point. Getting free leverage of the Qantas name makes it not a level playing field.
Your solution is adapt or die? I don't know of one flying school other than QGPA that will turn away a person who has the ability to pay. How are they getting so many applicants? Maybe it's the vague hints Qantas will hire you at the end? What other school can make that claim and have the Qantas name on the door.
Your views are incredibly biased towards Qantas.
The ultimate losers will the people who dropped 130k to find out that cadet placement at Qantas companies will be more like 20% and not whatever number marketing came up with.