Pilot Training College - Florida Ops closure
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: 14 days away 14 at home
An Independent Accountant told the court that PTC has a reasonable prospect of survival if its restructured.
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 14
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From: Europe
Examinership
Apologies to those of you already in the know,but here is a definition of what examinership actually means.Interesting to see how the part about not unfairly prejudicial to any creditor(s) '..Pans out
Examinership is a process in Irish law whereby the protection of the Court is obtained to assist the survival of a company. It allows a company to restructure with the approval of the High Court
In order to obtain the appointment of an examiner it is necessary to petition the High Court and persuade the court that there is a reasonable prospect of survival of the company and the whole or part of its undertaking if an examiner is appointed.
The examiner has a fixed period of 70 days (extensible to 100 days) inwhich to prepare a scheme of arrangement, which must be approved by at least one class of creditors of the company. If it can be shown that the scheme provides for the survival of the company and the whole or part of its undertaking and that it is not unfairly prejudicial to any creditor(s) of the company the cour thas discretion to approve the scheme.
In most schemes of arrangement an investor will invest in the company and part of the money invested will be used to pay a dividend to each class of creditors
Examinership is a process in Irish law whereby the protection of the Court is obtained to assist the survival of a company. It allows a company to restructure with the approval of the High Court
In order to obtain the appointment of an examiner it is necessary to petition the High Court and persuade the court that there is a reasonable prospect of survival of the company and the whole or part of its undertaking if an examiner is appointed.
The examiner has a fixed period of 70 days (extensible to 100 days) inwhich to prepare a scheme of arrangement, which must be approved by at least one class of creditors of the company. If it can be shown that the scheme provides for the survival of the company and the whole or part of its undertaking and that it is not unfairly prejudicial to any creditor(s) of the company the cour thas discretion to approve the scheme.
In most schemes of arrangement an investor will invest in the company and part of the money invested will be used to pay a dividend to each class of creditors
Joined: Mar 2004
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From: fl350
Not so veiled. There is a basic test when someone walks onto the airfield. Most fail. Rare enough the fail before they even get to the airfield.
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 66
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From: huj
Ah yes, the submissive deference needed to bolster the inflated egos of self declared greatness.
The last thing you need is submissive deference. Not many pilots could be accused of that. So less of the ad hominen please.
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 20
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From: Kitty Hawk
The dream morphed from training pilots to a dream sold to young pilots with false claims, misleading advertising, slick marketing by clowns wearing four bars (a telecoms saleswoman, a failed CPL pilot and a bathroom salesman who looked like a hairdresser all lead by a self-styled captain (he only holds a JAA CPL with less than 500 hours right seat ‘jet time’) with the sole intention of making pure profits.
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 513
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From: all over the place
What is it with all this diversive attacking the of the students? are we trying to divert attention away from the real issue?
As usual on pprune there is always some smart ass who uses hindsight to tell people what, when and how they would have done it better
Why not kick people when they are down?...smart move. I guess the bankers that cost the world its economy were victims too...
The only issue is...
the students money is missing!!
The latest article in the Independant is lies, lies and more lies. An Aer Lingus contract that was lost?? There was never a contract with Aer Lingus, a request for Tender which went to several schools for which they were objectively turned down.
It says something if the National Carrier isn't interested in supporting the biggest national school....
If the airlines were so happy with PTC why did they all ask for independent confidential reports from several ex-PTC employees as to the conduct of the upper management.
It is now reported that the company is almost 10 million euros in debt, how is that possible when the money has come in and they haven't paid any bills.
WHERE IS THE MONEY? WHERE IS THE MONEY? WHERE IS THE MONEY? GET IT?
As usual on pprune there is always some smart ass who uses hindsight to tell people what, when and how they would have done it better
Why not kick people when they are down?...smart move. I guess the bankers that cost the world its economy were victims too...
The only issue is...
the students money is missing!!
The latest article in the Independant is lies, lies and more lies. An Aer Lingus contract that was lost?? There was never a contract with Aer Lingus, a request for Tender which went to several schools for which they were objectively turned down.
It says something if the National Carrier isn't interested in supporting the biggest national school....
If the airlines were so happy with PTC why did they all ask for independent confidential reports from several ex-PTC employees as to the conduct of the upper management.
It is now reported that the company is almost 10 million euros in debt, how is that possible when the money has come in and they haven't paid any bills.
WHERE IS THE MONEY? WHERE IS THE MONEY? WHERE IS THE MONEY? GET IT?
Last edited by pilotbear; 20th July 2012 at 06:54.
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 468
Likes: 3
From: London
@pilotbear - Hindsight is a wonderful thing I know. However the perils of paying up front have long been discussed on here and PTC's reputation and history on here could have been described as chequered. Knowing this, people still plunged massive sums of money. I know it's awful for the students, but I can't help but think about the stupidity of it. In particular those who signed on the dotted line after Cabair went bust.
What I will agree with is €10m black hole is massive and i think needs a full investigation.
What I will agree with is €10m black hole is massive and i think needs a full investigation.
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: FL410
I think we all agree on one thing : it was a stupid idea to pay the whole course upfront. But I'm sure the telecoms saleswoman did her job very well and made it look like the brightest idea for a highway to an A320 right seat. Don't forget they got a 400'000€ subvention from the government, and I don't think they would have got it without working hard to make the company LOOK good.
The guys think that because PTC obtained the approval from the IAA means the IAA is responsible for their loss, which can be true. But think about it : students lost 80Ks each, but the IAA lost 400K€ ! They have a chance to fight along with the IAA against the one who is really responsible for what happened, but they choose to argue with their ally !
With regards to how PTC lost so much money, I can't believe a flight school that has so many students can ever lose a single cent. They never allow you to "spend" money that they don't have on your student account, which means they don't spend money they don't have (knowing they weren't paying their bills, they didn't spend money at all).
On top of this, as you pay for a "0 to frozen ATPL" package, all the costs are "rounded up" with extraordinary margins.
As an example :the students are sent to FL for the weather (which is !!!! the whole summer) AND for the lower costs of flight time in the US. HOWEVER, a Piper Seminole costs 330USD/h if rented to FIT. PTC had us paying around 500 EUROS per hour. 25 hours of Seminole in the US per student, 200 students in, I'll let you do the maths. The same thing applies to accomodations and other planes. If they're not making billions of profit, no one else does and even Ryanair is bankrupt.
Now, if you look at it, you will find out that the CEO HHTGCFL (His Highness The Greatest Captain For Life) Mike Edgeworth, who has flown as much as 400~500 hours in a Hawker jet (don't hide it, I know you're impressed) created several different ghost companies doing NOTHING, some of them based in a nice condo 1437 Pineapple avenue, Melbourne, FL, and that he seems to have invested in real estate in Florida. If you don't see the link, don't even go to a class 1 medical examination, you're blind.
To sum this up :
PTC owes money to :
- FIT for 1M€
- the IAA for 400K€
- the students for an unknown amount of money
The money has "disappeared" and the company has 10M€ in debt, but the CEO has plenty of money.
There must be a black hole somewhere, absorbing any euro or dollar floating around. And if that's the case, it will be proven as soon as the Justice investigates the accounts of PTC.
The guys think that because PTC obtained the approval from the IAA means the IAA is responsible for their loss, which can be true. But think about it : students lost 80Ks each, but the IAA lost 400K€ ! They have a chance to fight along with the IAA against the one who is really responsible for what happened, but they choose to argue with their ally !
With regards to how PTC lost so much money, I can't believe a flight school that has so many students can ever lose a single cent. They never allow you to "spend" money that they don't have on your student account, which means they don't spend money they don't have (knowing they weren't paying their bills, they didn't spend money at all).
On top of this, as you pay for a "0 to frozen ATPL" package, all the costs are "rounded up" with extraordinary margins.
As an example :the students are sent to FL for the weather (which is !!!! the whole summer) AND for the lower costs of flight time in the US. HOWEVER, a Piper Seminole costs 330USD/h if rented to FIT. PTC had us paying around 500 EUROS per hour. 25 hours of Seminole in the US per student, 200 students in, I'll let you do the maths. The same thing applies to accomodations and other planes. If they're not making billions of profit, no one else does and even Ryanair is bankrupt.
Now, if you look at it, you will find out that the CEO HHTGCFL (His Highness The Greatest Captain For Life) Mike Edgeworth, who has flown as much as 400~500 hours in a Hawker jet (don't hide it, I know you're impressed) created several different ghost companies doing NOTHING, some of them based in a nice condo 1437 Pineapple avenue, Melbourne, FL, and that he seems to have invested in real estate in Florida. If you don't see the link, don't even go to a class 1 medical examination, you're blind.
To sum this up :
PTC owes money to :
- FIT for 1M€
- the IAA for 400K€
- the students for an unknown amount of money
The money has "disappeared" and the company has 10M€ in debt, but the CEO has plenty of money.
There must be a black hole somewhere, absorbing any euro or dollar floating around. And if that's the case, it will be proven as soon as the Justice investigates the accounts of PTC.
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 4,282
Likes: 6
From: Escapee from Ultima Thule
Who said you have to go to OAA, FTE & CTC, or any other school that requires complete payment in advance? Most of the old hands on this website have been singing the 'Don't pay upfront' mantra for many, many years. We've seen lots of schools go tits up, leaving students out of pocket. Not the first time and certainly not the last.
If you feel so strongly that going to a school that requires payment upfront is good way to leapfrog your career, then don't blame anyone else if your money disappears. To address your comment: It's precisely because you *don't* know what's happening with the book keeping in *any* business that you don't pay upfront any more than you're prepared to lose. Or you wear the cost of someone taking that risk on your behalf by arranging insurance. You don't have a contractor build a house for you & pay the whole sum ahead of time so why would you think that's a normal way (or even a reasonable way) to conduct the business of your flying training?
If you feel so strongly that going to a school that requires payment upfront is good way to leapfrog your career, then don't blame anyone else if your money disappears. To address your comment: It's precisely because you *don't* know what's happening with the book keeping in *any* business that you don't pay upfront any more than you're prepared to lose. Or you wear the cost of someone taking that risk on your behalf by arranging insurance. You don't have a contractor build a house for you & pay the whole sum ahead of time so why would you think that's a normal way (or even a reasonable way) to conduct the business of your flying training?
Last edited by Tinstaafl; 23rd July 2012 at 05:18.
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: Ireland
I didn't say you have to go to any of them schools, I was giving examples. Can you give me any examples of Integrated schools which don't require students to be 'well in credit'.
To address your comments. First of all, I don't feel "so strongly that going to a school that requires payment up front is a good way to leapfrog MY career". I felt the best way to leapfrog my career was to get on a sponsored cadet scheme with an airline, that's what I done, that's where I was supposed to train. And who am I blaming, and when have I blamed anyone?
Don't jump to conclusions, sir....
To address your comments. First of all, I don't feel "so strongly that going to a school that requires payment up front is a good way to leapfrog MY career". I felt the best way to leapfrog my career was to get on a sponsored cadet scheme with an airline, that's what I done, that's where I was supposed to train. And who am I blaming, and when have I blamed anyone?
Don't jump to conclusions, sir....
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 4,282
Likes: 6
From: Escapee from Ultima Thule
Like I wrote: You didn't *have* to do the training path you attempted - and perhaps completed (and if completed, good for you!). You *chose* to do it, along with the upfront payment, in the hope that you would leap into the cockpit of a shiny jet.
Some amount 'in credit', as you put it, is not necessarily the same as a complete payment up front that lacks even a basic funds protection or preservation mechanism. There certainly isn't a *requirement* to do training via an integrated route. Non-integrated is also available - and nearly always cheaper. If you can't negotiate a satisfactory protected payments program at an integrated school then walk away. You don't need their services as much as they want your money. There is always an alternative way to train.
Some amount 'in credit', as you put it, is not necessarily the same as a complete payment up front that lacks even a basic funds protection or preservation mechanism. There certainly isn't a *requirement* to do training via an integrated route. Non-integrated is also available - and nearly always cheaper. If you can't negotiate a satisfactory protected payments program at an integrated school then walk away. You don't need their services as much as they want your money. There is always an alternative way to train.
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 513
Likes: 0
From: all over the place
Just another member of the 'I know better than you' club. Like it or not, that is the way of the world now. And yes you do pay for your house in advance, the mortgage company does then you are liable (for three times it's value)
What you should be criticising is the Mike EDGEWORTH family, but no, kick the victim instead. Guess when someone is mugged it is their fault for being in that part of town...
What you should be criticising is the Mike EDGEWORTH family, but no, kick the victim instead. Guess when someone is mugged it is their fault for being in that part of town...
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 513
Likes: 0
From: all over the place
FROM BOARDS.ie
This is all Public Knowledge, I am not outing anyone or anything. There is nothing here that is not accessible by anyone at anytime.
Perhaps the money is here somewhere?
Shemburn Ltd (Michael Edgeworth, Diarmud Maher, Anthony Howard Kember, George Edgeworth}
Pilot Training College of IRELAND Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, George Michael Edgeworth, Judith Mary Kember, Anthony Howard Kember, Ann Edgeworth, Michael Flynn, John Donlan, Porema ltd)
Pilot Training College CAMBRIDGE Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth)
A and O Properties Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth, Ruth Edgeworth, Harry Everard)
Aircraft Technical Support Ireland Limited (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth, Laura Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, Andrew Fleming, Paula Horan, Gill Hanlon,)
Pilot Training Systems Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Mike Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, Declan Walsh, Private research ltd,)
RTF systems Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Ciaran Doyle, Anthony Howard Kember, Declan Walsh)
Skytrace Limted (Michael Edgeworth, George Edgeworth, George M. Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, Victor Ostapenko)
Alphatel Ltd (Michael James Edgeworth, Declan Walsh, Porema Limited, Marc O’Connor, Sean Kavanah)
ATS Telecommunications Ltd (M.J. Edgeworth)
Wolcar Ltd (George Michael Edgeworth, Michael Roche, Francisco Dominguez, Brendan Glynn, Mary Glynn)
Plus in Florida
Pilot Training College llc
PTC RE llc (with Paul Glover)
Allgifts llc
N4923T llc (with Lorraine Skinner)
This is all Public Knowledge, I am not outing anyone or anything. There is nothing here that is not accessible by anyone at anytime.
Perhaps the money is here somewhere?
Shemburn Ltd (Michael Edgeworth, Diarmud Maher, Anthony Howard Kember, George Edgeworth}
Pilot Training College of IRELAND Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, George Michael Edgeworth, Judith Mary Kember, Anthony Howard Kember, Ann Edgeworth, Michael Flynn, John Donlan, Porema ltd)
Pilot Training College CAMBRIDGE Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth)
A and O Properties Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth, Ruth Edgeworth, Harry Everard)
Aircraft Technical Support Ireland Limited (Shemburn Ltd, Michael Edgeworth, Laura Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, Andrew Fleming, Paula Horan, Gill Hanlon,)
Pilot Training Systems Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Mike Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, Declan Walsh, Private research ltd,)
RTF systems Ltd (Shemburn Ltd, Ciaran Doyle, Anthony Howard Kember, Declan Walsh)
Skytrace Limted (Michael Edgeworth, George Edgeworth, George M. Edgeworth, Ciaran Doyle, Victor Ostapenko)
Alphatel Ltd (Michael James Edgeworth, Declan Walsh, Porema Limited, Marc O’Connor, Sean Kavanah)
ATS Telecommunications Ltd (M.J. Edgeworth)
Wolcar Ltd (George Michael Edgeworth, Michael Roche, Francisco Dominguez, Brendan Glynn, Mary Glynn)
Plus in Florida
Pilot Training College llc
PTC RE llc (with Paul Glover)
Allgifts llc
N4923T llc (with Lorraine Skinner)
Last edited by pilotbear; 23rd July 2012 at 17:17.
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
From: er...Ireland
This argument about the wisdom of up-front payment is only forming a circular firing squad.
This isn’t a case of petty pilferage or minor white collar fiddling.
This is a CRIME OF ASTRONOMICAL PROPORTIONS with effects and ramifications for PTC students and their families that will stretch on for decades.
They have fallen victim to probably the most morally bankrupt greed-ridden predatory scumbag ever to have leeched on the dreams and ambitions of young people starting their working lives.
I’m no lawyer, but I imagine that rather than sniping at each other from separate trenches it would be wiser to consolidate the forces of all aggrieved parties.
The first order of business would be to locate the legendry ‘Captain’ asap - either fiscally or physically.
Every hour this ratbag is allowed to hide under a brick allows him to consolidate the firewall between his stolen cash and any meaningful accountability.
The interest alone accumulating on the ‘principle swindle’ is probably good enough to grease the palms of a sufficient number of mid-level politicos to close off significant avenues of investigation.
Time is of the essence – this should be a criminal pursuit.
This isn’t a case of petty pilferage or minor white collar fiddling.
This is a CRIME OF ASTRONOMICAL PROPORTIONS with effects and ramifications for PTC students and their families that will stretch on for decades.
They have fallen victim to probably the most morally bankrupt greed-ridden predatory scumbag ever to have leeched on the dreams and ambitions of young people starting their working lives.
I’m no lawyer, but I imagine that rather than sniping at each other from separate trenches it would be wiser to consolidate the forces of all aggrieved parties.
The first order of business would be to locate the legendry ‘Captain’ asap - either fiscally or physically.
Every hour this ratbag is allowed to hide under a brick allows him to consolidate the firewall between his stolen cash and any meaningful accountability.
The interest alone accumulating on the ‘principle swindle’ is probably good enough to grease the palms of a sufficient number of mid-level politicos to close off significant avenues of investigation.
Time is of the essence – this should be a criminal pursuit.
Last edited by Irelander; 23rd July 2012 at 17:22.
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: Ireland
Tinstaafl, yes you're right in what you say - I didn't have pursue this training path. But would you turn down a sponsored place to go it alone? Personally I believe these schemes are the best out there, at present. Not too many jobs about, and now with most LCC's are introducing their own MPL schemes openings for 250 hour guys may well be reducing.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. Nobody I know (except one individual) paid completely up front so where are you getting this from?
Well said pilotbear
There are one too many 'I know better than you' members knocking around.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. Nobody I know (except one individual) paid completely up front so where are you getting this from?
Well said pilotbear
There are one too many 'I know better than you' members knocking around.
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,817
Likes: 1
From: Hotel Gypsy
Pilotbear, your analogy doesn't really work. A house has value hence the bank's willingness to pay up front on your behalf. Half an ATPL course has no value.
Which bit are some of you guys not getting? If someone wants significant cash up front (either the whole lot or by installment) they have a cash flow problem. It doesn't take much for that pack of cards to collapse. The principle is not unique to PTC or the aviation industry, it applies across the board.
Which bit are some of you guys not getting? If someone wants significant cash up front (either the whole lot or by installment) they have a cash flow problem. It doesn't take much for that pack of cards to collapse. The principle is not unique to PTC or the aviation industry, it applies across the board.
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
From: europe
kids these days want it "right now..."
they want a ps3,they want a game boy, and later they want fly a jet, and they will do anything to reach their dream with parents' money, today, not tomorrow.
this is how these young pilots became.spoiled kids!
gosh, what a surprise, when things are not turning they way they want and flight schools run away with their money!.
life is, suck it!
they want a ps3,they want a game boy, and later they want fly a jet, and they will do anything to reach their dream with parents' money, today, not tomorrow.
this is how these young pilots became.spoiled kids!
gosh, what a surprise, when things are not turning they way they want and flight schools run away with their money!.
life is
, suck it!
Last edited by a320renewal; 23rd July 2012 at 21:51.
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
From: cork
a better way to pay
It should be made a requirement for any FTO or ATO as they will now be called under EASA, to have an escrow payment system in place before they get approval.
Money is held by a third party until the event that requires to be paid for is complete. There should be a small amount advanced to the ATO to allow for prepaying skills tests and equipment etc.
Pilot training should also be about, now don't take me up wrong, but training pilots. Its not that difficult once you have an experienced training department, who have both experience in flight instruction and commercial transport. Its not a sales or IT company that does some flight training on the side.
Universities and colleges have been educating for years, if the system ain't broke...
Money is held by a third party until the event that requires to be paid for is complete. There should be a small amount advanced to the ATO to allow for prepaying skills tests and equipment etc.
Pilot training should also be about, now don't take me up wrong, but training pilots. Its not that difficult once you have an experienced training department, who have both experience in flight instruction and commercial transport. Its not a sales or IT company that does some flight training on the side.
Universities and colleges have been educating for years, if the system ain't broke...