Modular V Integrated (Merged) - Look here before starting a new thread!
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I agreed with Beazle; no he's saying you need to be flexible. Not have this mentaility a Fatpl = airline opportunity. You have to be prepared to take any road there as not all are open for everybody.
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S88,
No I don't think for a moment that is what beazlebub is saying. I think he's telling you that if that's what you want, integrated may offer you the best chance of achieving that off the bat. What (s)he's telling you is that if you go the modular route, you may have to spend some years building time by bush flying or para dropping until you become "validated" for airline employment by your total time. In short I think you're being told " do not expect to come out and find that you have exactly the same opportunities as an integrated student. Thats not saying your opportunities will be better or worse, nut recognise they will be different. If you recognise this up front, then you have a better chance of not being crestfallen with your choice downstream- whatever choice you made.
No I don't think for a moment that is what beazlebub is saying. I think he's telling you that if that's what you want, integrated may offer you the best chance of achieving that off the bat. What (s)he's telling you is that if you go the modular route, you may have to spend some years building time by bush flying or para dropping until you become "validated" for airline employment by your total time. In short I think you're being told " do not expect to come out and find that you have exactly the same opportunities as an integrated student. Thats not saying your opportunities will be better or worse, nut recognise they will be different. If you recognise this up front, then you have a better chance of not being crestfallen with your choice downstream- whatever choice you made.
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I think Clanger pulls it together well there. Sometimes I read Bealzebubs comments and wonder if he's affiliated in any way with an integrated scheme (I'm sure that's not the case however). Tempered with Clangers response I think overall it's quite balanced.
I have to re-stress that in my view integrated training is a risk only worth taking when it's subject to prior selection for a cadet scheme (whether that's Flybe/Thomas Cook as now, Netjets of old etc). That is a subtle difference though I think in agreement with what Bealzebub says. The rich kids can take their chances, but I can't respect them and it's their sort competing against one another to pay for TR, line training and hours on line after non competitive selection that are bringing the industry down for all.
I have to re-stress that in my view integrated training is a risk only worth taking when it's subject to prior selection for a cadet scheme (whether that's Flybe/Thomas Cook as now, Netjets of old etc). That is a subtle difference though I think in agreement with what Bealzebub says. The rich kids can take their chances, but I can't respect them and it's their sort competing against one another to pay for TR, line training and hours on line after non competitive selection that are bringing the industry down for all.
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@Bealzebub,
Brilliant argument and on the whole I agree, if all people want to achieve in life is to fly for an airline as quickly as possible and make a quick return then I would probably suggest Integrated route to them if they had the money. Furthermore, the older a candidate is I would recommend Integrated because they don't have as much time on their hands.
For me, firstly I had time on my hands being 21 at the moment. Secondly, the fun I had during my training (especially hour building) I wouldn't change for the world - something the integrated boys never experience (I'm sure there are some who have however but it is more regimented training). Thirdly, I always wanted more: In terms of flying, I always new that I wanted to Instruct for a good few years first because I love teaching. Therefore Integrated would have been of no benefit to me. (The Flight School I instruct at btw has just lost four instructors to BMI regional, all of whom were year above me on my degree on modular training and the Cabair integrated applicants I know with first time passes that arn't FI's gor rejected - goes to show). Finally, I have always wanted more than just flying as well: I would like to go into Management, maybe push for CEO in the future. This is why I came to Cranfield to do my MSc in ATM. If nothing else, it's nice to have a back up and not solely be qualified to fly.
Maybe you're right, not EVERYONE will make it! But, air travel is forecasted to double by 2020 (don't mention the F word, had a nightmare finishing my Forecasting module last week), and things are looking up. I'm most certainly in no rush.
In sum, I think that there are horses for courses. Both have pros and cons. Just be aware of what your getting into!
Brilliant argument and on the whole I agree, if all people want to achieve in life is to fly for an airline as quickly as possible and make a quick return then I would probably suggest Integrated route to them if they had the money. Furthermore, the older a candidate is I would recommend Integrated because they don't have as much time on their hands.
For me, firstly I had time on my hands being 21 at the moment. Secondly, the fun I had during my training (especially hour building) I wouldn't change for the world - something the integrated boys never experience (I'm sure there are some who have however but it is more regimented training). Thirdly, I always wanted more: In terms of flying, I always new that I wanted to Instruct for a good few years first because I love teaching. Therefore Integrated would have been of no benefit to me. (The Flight School I instruct at btw has just lost four instructors to BMI regional, all of whom were year above me on my degree on modular training and the Cabair integrated applicants I know with first time passes that arn't FI's gor rejected - goes to show). Finally, I have always wanted more than just flying as well: I would like to go into Management, maybe push for CEO in the future. This is why I came to Cranfield to do my MSc in ATM. If nothing else, it's nice to have a back up and not solely be qualified to fly.
Maybe you're right, not EVERYONE will make it! But, air travel is forecasted to double by 2020 (don't mention the F word, had a nightmare finishing my Forecasting module last week), and things are looking up. I'm most certainly in no rush.
In sum, I think that there are horses for courses. Both have pros and cons. Just be aware of what your getting into!
Christian A said:
That would be a good argument if it were true that integrated training is faster. However the opposite is true. Going integrated, you go at ONE pace. Going modular, you go at YOUR pace, which CAN be much faster.
What you have overlooked is that all your arguments about the speed of return on investment clearly favour modular, both for the speed of training, and the fact that it will cost considerably less.
I agree, if all people want to achieve in life is to fly for an airline as quickly as possible and make a quick return then I would probably suggest Integrated route to them if they had the money. Furthermore, the older a candidate is I would recommend Integrated because they don't have as much time on their hands.
What you have overlooked is that all your arguments about the speed of return on investment clearly favour modular, both for the speed of training, and the fact that it will cost considerably less.
Last edited by pilotmike; 4th Apr 2011 at 15:02.
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pilotmike:
I do not agree that going YOUR pace will make you go faster than a integrated. Because doing the integrated one is basically a full time school. You have no time for work etc...
I do not agree that going YOUR pace will make you go faster than a integrated. Because doing the integrated one is basically a full time school. You have no time for work etc...
Johnny Bekkestad:
Whether you agree or not, the fact is training modular can be done more quickly than integrated.
Going MY pace, I completed modular training in 8 months, which is much faster than any integrated course, which proves my point. Whether YOU could achieve the same is entirely down to you. Your call.
I do not agree that going YOUR pace will make you go faster than a integrated
Going MY pace, I completed modular training in 8 months, which is much faster than any integrated course, which proves my point. Whether YOU could achieve the same is entirely down to you. Your call.
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Pilotmike
I did ppl in 30 days, multi engine in 12 days, instrument rating 40 days, 100 hours time building in 14 days as i flew across the US twice and i did my cpl in 10 days. I did everything on minimums while getting a degree in aviation science.
I did ppl in 30 days, multi engine in 12 days, instrument rating 40 days, 100 hours time building in 14 days as i flew across the US twice and i did my cpl in 10 days. I did everything on minimums while getting a degree in aviation science.
Hey, put your 'Johnny' away, this isn't a willy-waving contest.
I simply dispute bold yet false assertions that 'integrated is faster than modular', which you support with your comment 'I do not agree that going YOUR pace will make you go faster than a integrated'.
Your argument is gloriously muddled, especially given your claim to have gone from ab initio to CPL/IR in just 106 days!!
Well done! Without doubt you are the biggest Johnny, but with such bold claims you've spectacularly lost your own argument that integrated is faster - exactly proving my point...!
I simply dispute bold yet false assertions that 'integrated is faster than modular', which you support with your comment 'I do not agree that going YOUR pace will make you go faster than a integrated'.
Your argument is gloriously muddled, especially given your claim to have gone from ab initio to CPL/IR in just 106 days!!
Well done! Without doubt you are the biggest Johnny, but with such bold claims you've spectacularly lost your own argument that integrated is faster - exactly proving my point...!
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my point was that most people i know, do modular courses at slow pace, so that they can work at the same time. I know guys working on their PPL for a year...
Then you say "Going MY pace, I completed modular training in 8 months, which is much faster than any integrated course" and where i am right now, you are expected to do ppl-cfi in less than 8 months so i do not agree with your statement... Nor did i mean to do a willy-waving contest, but you asked what i could do "Whether YOU could achieve the same is entirely down to you. Your call" and i provided you with what you asked for.
captain.weird: No its not embry, i did my FAA written at my own pace. With that i mean that i was done with my FAA ppl checkride before i was done with the ground school etc...
Then you say "Going MY pace, I completed modular training in 8 months, which is much faster than any integrated course" and where i am right now, you are expected to do ppl-cfi in less than 8 months so i do not agree with your statement... Nor did i mean to do a willy-waving contest, but you asked what i could do "Whether YOU could achieve the same is entirely down to you. Your call" and i provided you with what you asked for.
captain.weird: No its not embry, i did my FAA written at my own pace. With that i mean that i was done with my FAA ppl checkride before i was done with the ground school etc...
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Modular doesn't mean you have to work whilst training.
You both (Pilotmike & Johnny) have admirably demonstrated that 'full time' modular training can be done quicker (a lot quicker if you put your mind to it) than integrated courses. Obviously it can take a lot longer if you work at the same time.
But either way, it just goes to show the flexibility that modular training offers and being able to go as quickly or as slowly as you need.
Willy waving or not! Congratulations and well done to you both for completing your training at break neck speed!!
BTW - any luck with securing employment?
You both (Pilotmike & Johnny) have admirably demonstrated that 'full time' modular training can be done quicker (a lot quicker if you put your mind to it) than integrated courses. Obviously it can take a lot longer if you work at the same time.
But either way, it just goes to show the flexibility that modular training offers and being able to go as quickly or as slowly as you need.
Willy waving or not! Congratulations and well done to you both for completing your training at break neck speed!!
BTW - any luck with securing employment?
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Pilotmike
"What you have overlooked is that all your arguments about the speed of return on investment clearly favour modular, both for the speed of training, and the fact that it will cost considerably less".
It seems as though you are arguing with everone for the sake of arguing! If you read what I wrote you would see that I agree with you and generally favour modular, although there are pros and cons for both, I was simply trying to present a balanced argument. You are right, it is considerably cheaper to do modular, and I too, like you, completed my JAA training in a similar time frame of about 10 months.
The general thesis of my argument was actually nothing to do with ROI etc. What I was saying was that for me, modualar was better because I want a lot more than just flying. But both have pros and cos!!
"What you have overlooked is that all your arguments about the speed of return on investment clearly favour modular, both for the speed of training, and the fact that it will cost considerably less".
It seems as though you are arguing with everone for the sake of arguing! If you read what I wrote you would see that I agree with you and generally favour modular, although there are pros and cons for both, I was simply trying to present a balanced argument. You are right, it is considerably cheaper to do modular, and I too, like you, completed my JAA training in a similar time frame of about 10 months.
The general thesis of my argument was actually nothing to do with ROI etc. What I was saying was that for me, modualar was better because I want a lot more than just flying. But both have pros and cos!!
Christian A:
No, I'm not arguing with everybody, just with you and Johnny Bekkestad, who try to pursuade an impressionable audience that an integrated course is the fastest way to train.
Both of you then prove your argument to be completely flawed by later admitting to have done exactly the opposite of what they profess - training faster than an integrated course by going modular.
Is the irony completely lost on you?
For you to now claim that your argument was not primarily about speed of training or rate of return on investment is disingenuous. Perhaps you ought to remind yourself by re-read your opening sentence in which you clearly cite both reasons in your recommendation of an integrated course:
I feel the readers of this thread deserve better, a more truthful perspective, which is why I stepped in to address both of you and your incorrect statements that integrated is the fastest way to train.
It seems as though you are arguing with everone for the sake of arguing!
Both of you then prove your argument to be completely flawed by later admitting to have done exactly the opposite of what they profess - training faster than an integrated course by going modular.
Is the irony completely lost on you?
For you to now claim that your argument was not primarily about speed of training or rate of return on investment is disingenuous. Perhaps you ought to remind yourself by re-read your opening sentence in which you clearly cite both reasons in your recommendation of an integrated course:
if all people want to achieve in life is to fly for an airline as quickly as possible and make a quick return then I would probably suggest Integrated route to them
Last edited by pilotmike; 8th Apr 2011 at 10:01.
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Pilotmike,
But whilst I absolutely applaud and agree with your statement about ensuring people get the best information from this thread, your statement itself is disingenuous.
Whilst I would perfectly accept that it is possible to train quicker than an integrated course, I would argue (Strongly) that those of you such as yourself, Johnny and Christian who have gone from 0-fATPL in LESS than an integrated course timescale are truly exceptional and not the rule.
This can be validated by the fact that full time ground school anywhere takes 6 months. Therefore anyone who can condense a PPL, 150 hours P1, night rating, MEP, CPL, IR, MCC and ATPL theory into 8 months should be applauded, but recognised as significantly above average. I think there's also an argument there (which I won't go in to) that anyone that has done this can not REALLY have learned the ATPL theory and quite possibly has overlooked key skills in the flying training.
As I say, I'm sure it CAN be done quicker than your fifteen month integrated course, but the truthful statement is PROBABLY that integrated will get most people to fATPL quicker than modular. To say otherwise is extremely disingenuous.
But whilst I absolutely applaud and agree with your statement about ensuring people get the best information from this thread, your statement itself is disingenuous.
Whilst I would perfectly accept that it is possible to train quicker than an integrated course, I would argue (Strongly) that those of you such as yourself, Johnny and Christian who have gone from 0-fATPL in LESS than an integrated course timescale are truly exceptional and not the rule.
This can be validated by the fact that full time ground school anywhere takes 6 months. Therefore anyone who can condense a PPL, 150 hours P1, night rating, MEP, CPL, IR, MCC and ATPL theory into 8 months should be applauded, but recognised as significantly above average. I think there's also an argument there (which I won't go in to) that anyone that has done this can not REALLY have learned the ATPL theory and quite possibly has overlooked key skills in the flying training.
As I say, I'm sure it CAN be done quicker than your fifteen month integrated course, but the truthful statement is PROBABLY that integrated will get most people to fATPL quicker than modular. To say otherwise is extremely disingenuous.
Oh dear, clanger.....
Re-read my words... and I even CAPITALISED them to help you:
Note - I said CAN be, not WILL be. Don't try to make an argument where there isn't one.
And now you're accusing me of being disingenuous, for saying exactly what you are now repeating.
The rest of your potentially libellous comments are deprecated.
Re-read my words... and I even CAPITALISED them to help you:
Going modular, you go at YOUR pace, which CAN be much faster.
And now you're accusing me of being disingenuous, for saying exactly what you are now repeating.
The rest of your potentially libellous comments are deprecated.
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coming back to Uk
I have completed ppl training in San Diego(sdfi) have 150 hours flying and want to come back to Uk to continue the modular track leading to a frozen atpl. My questions are these, I would be based in Bournemouth , is BFCT a good ground school? I see that I needs night rating , could I do this in Uk while I am attending ground school? Or should I do this in the States before I leave? thanks
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Dally,
In my completly biased view (before Mike starts attacking everyone) is go to EPTA for the ground school round the otherside of the field and do your night rating at BFCT because it is cheaper than Cabair in a couple of nights during ATPL's. That's what I did and loved both, but obviously everyone will have different opinions.
Mike,
No, I wasn't "trying to pursuade an impressionable audience that an integrated course is the fastest way to train" because it is obviously not always true as in mine and your case. And yes, i stand by my opening statement that you very kindly re-posted, I would still tell someone asking for advise to go Integrated if all they wanted to do was fly for an airline because GENERALLY, it is quicker and leads to quicker employment.
In fear of repeating myself, but it feels that I have to for peope like you, both have advantages and disadvantages but for me and my situation, modular was the right route!
In my completly biased view (before Mike starts attacking everyone) is go to EPTA for the ground school round the otherside of the field and do your night rating at BFCT because it is cheaper than Cabair in a couple of nights during ATPL's. That's what I did and loved both, but obviously everyone will have different opinions.
Mike,
No, I wasn't "trying to pursuade an impressionable audience that an integrated course is the fastest way to train" because it is obviously not always true as in mine and your case. And yes, i stand by my opening statement that you very kindly re-posted, I would still tell someone asking for advise to go Integrated if all they wanted to do was fly for an airline because GENERALLY, it is quicker and leads to quicker employment.
In fear of repeating myself, but it feels that I have to for peope like you, both have advantages and disadvantages but for me and my situation, modular was the right route!
Integrated courses are like M&S ready meals. Great quality, very tasty, and they will fill your belly. They are expensive but you pay for the convenience. Some people prefer Tesco's value range Chilli-con-carne. These aren't so good and can lead to an extended visit to the toilet. Generally ready meals can be cooked and eaten quickly. 
Modular courses are akin to buying the ingredients and following a recipe. You can prepare a delicious Delia Smith meal using organic produce from the local Farm Shop but that takes ages. Many people visit their local supermarket and then cook an excellent Jamie Oliver 30 min special. Of course, some people can't be bothered and have cheese on toast.
The point is that a motivated and dedicated person can achieve the same end point in a similar time regardless of which route they take. Very organised people can even take the fun out of the process in order to get there even sooner, but that is a personal choice born out of ruthless practical necessity. Here's looking at you PilotMike
In my opinion, whether you choose integrated or modular you need to be very sure that your microwave or hob works and that you have found some cutlery with which to eat the 'fruits' of your hard work. You also need a back up packet of Walkers Ready Salted in case you overcook the chicken chasseur or your flan fails to rise.
In other words, however you train, don't do it unless you are prepared for things to go pear-shaped. You probably won't get a job for a year or two because that is the reality of recruitment 2007-2011 - don't assume you will be one of the lucky ones - and you need to factor this into your finances.
Modular courses are akin to buying the ingredients and following a recipe. You can prepare a delicious Delia Smith meal using organic produce from the local Farm Shop but that takes ages. Many people visit their local supermarket and then cook an excellent Jamie Oliver 30 min special. Of course, some people can't be bothered and have cheese on toast.
The point is that a motivated and dedicated person can achieve the same end point in a similar time regardless of which route they take. Very organised people can even take the fun out of the process in order to get there even sooner, but that is a personal choice born out of ruthless practical necessity. Here's looking at you PilotMike
In my opinion, whether you choose integrated or modular you need to be very sure that your microwave or hob works and that you have found some cutlery with which to eat the 'fruits' of your hard work. You also need a back up packet of Walkers Ready Salted in case you overcook the chicken chasseur or your flan fails to rise.
In other words, however you train, don't do it unless you are prepared for things to go pear-shaped. You probably won't get a job for a year or two because that is the reality of recruitment 2007-2011 - don't assume you will be one of the lucky ones - and you need to factor this into your finances.
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Networking, couchsurfing and frugal tactics
I've been scanning through the thread and I feel I may keep it bumped and current by adding my own £0.02p, mods feel free to strike down your wrath upon my post if it has already been covered, and my sincere apologies to any time, space and bandwidth I've wasted! you too reader!
About hours building, have any of you considered networking? I'm a 10hr PPL study, not even licensed yet and I've been making great connections in America as well as home! a lot of hobby pilots, farmers and charity pilots welcome their very own amateur FO for their exploits, young and old a lot of established pilots are not looking, but are welcoming for someone to sit in the seat less sat!
Some of the guys I've been speaking to said they'd love someone to split the fuel with them on a few runs and would welcome an air buddy to come practice with them! not to sound like a deviant but upon reading another thread a few nights ago and learning about the whole hours building lark I went and did a little snooping and found I was saving a packet flying with these lovely guys and girls! hell I don't even care if the hours don't count! I'm not too clear on that yet but grabbing air is grabbing air, logbooks be damned!
To save on accomodation where I plan to visit I'm making fantastic connections with people willing to let me surf their couch! most are for free but some require a little elbow grease... better than $45+ a night right?
The books I'm using right now to study JAA/FAA ATPL were bought off fleabay for a staggering £30, a fraction of the original cost from what I've seen! they are a little ragged and dogged with notes scribbled along the borders (that are actually proving useful) but the seller was kind enough to include a few blank practice exams with a kind note telling me to photocopy them and wishing me good luck!
There are savings to be made! it's just putting yourself out there and having a little faith in your fellow man! there are plenty of decent guys and girls out there willing to lend you a hand, but they can't come find you! you have to find them!
and hey, if I'm wrong, atleast I'll make the news right?
here's hoping I don't have to put the lotion on the skin lest I get the hose again!
About hours building, have any of you considered networking? I'm a 10hr PPL study, not even licensed yet and I've been making great connections in America as well as home! a lot of hobby pilots, farmers and charity pilots welcome their very own amateur FO for their exploits, young and old a lot of established pilots are not looking, but are welcoming for someone to sit in the seat less sat!
Some of the guys I've been speaking to said they'd love someone to split the fuel with them on a few runs and would welcome an air buddy to come practice with them! not to sound like a deviant but upon reading another thread a few nights ago and learning about the whole hours building lark I went and did a little snooping and found I was saving a packet flying with these lovely guys and girls! hell I don't even care if the hours don't count! I'm not too clear on that yet but grabbing air is grabbing air, logbooks be damned!
To save on accomodation where I plan to visit I'm making fantastic connections with people willing to let me surf their couch! most are for free but some require a little elbow grease... better than $45+ a night right?
The books I'm using right now to study JAA/FAA ATPL were bought off fleabay for a staggering £30, a fraction of the original cost from what I've seen! they are a little ragged and dogged with notes scribbled along the borders (that are actually proving useful) but the seller was kind enough to include a few blank practice exams with a kind note telling me to photocopy them and wishing me good luck!
There are savings to be made! it's just putting yourself out there and having a little faith in your fellow man! there are plenty of decent guys and girls out there willing to lend you a hand, but they can't come find you! you have to find them!
and hey, if I'm wrong, atleast I'll make the news right?
here's hoping I don't have to put the lotion on the skin lest I get the hose again!