Did anyone find training as hard as I do?
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Thanks for your inputs. Sorry gents. I think my post has made this thread a bit arguable, but let's don't get off topic. Bet is right; me myself when I read those kinds of posts I don't get anything out of that. But I was still tensed while writing that post; even I was bombarded the same way with one of my other posts in a thread and it made me to go and read my post once again, and I really laughed at my own post. I couldn't think I was the one writing it; it was like I had an offense. In both threads my english was attacked, now I'm worried about my english and hope haven't used unnecessary punctuations and grammar.
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Well... What can I say? I don’t read PPRUNE very often, let alone post on it, but when I started this thread I really didn't expect such an enormous response. I would like to say a big thank you to those of you who have provided me with positive, uplifting encouragement and feedback, virtual pats on the back etc, yes of course I needed that!
I already feel a lot happier with how capable I can be now if I believe in myself more. Believing in ones self seems to be the trend in a number of your posts, and even though deep down I know this is true, I personally have found it hard to think that way, until now.
As for all of the negative feedback, I hope this doesn't come over confrontational, but forgive me if I don’t thank you for that, I did after all only really want to hear from pilots who we're established in a career now, but who had more than the expected amount of problems with training along the way. From this it should have been clear that I was looking for help and reassurance!
By the way, I went solo after about 12-15 hours if I remember correctly so perhaps I have got it in me!
I already feel a lot happier with how capable I can be now if I believe in myself more. Believing in ones self seems to be the trend in a number of your posts, and even though deep down I know this is true, I personally have found it hard to think that way, until now.
As for all of the negative feedback, I hope this doesn't come over confrontational, but forgive me if I don’t thank you for that, I did after all only really want to hear from pilots who we're established in a career now, but who had more than the expected amount of problems with training along the way. From this it should have been clear that I was looking for help and reassurance!
By the way, I went solo after about 12-15 hours if I remember correctly so perhaps I have got it in me!
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I found most of the CPL and IR reasonably straightforward, but I was rubbish at flying a raw-data ILS. Really rubbish, to the point where it became a mindset problem, rather than a lack of flying ability. After a year flying airliners, I'm still rubbish at them, as I proved to myself the other week when I tried one and ended up looking out of the window for inspiration . . .
The good news is that it doesn't matter very much, as 90% of approaches are auto-coupled (the way the company likes it) and on the odd occasion when we do hand fly - usually for practice - it's either fully visual, or an ILS using the flight director. If I'd known that during IR training, I could have saved myself an awful lot of sleepless nights. (And before anyone phones the Daily Mail with a scoop about incompetent airline pilots, I've jumped through quite enough hoops to prove I can safely transport joe public from A to B, thank you very much).
Being an airline pilot is about much, much more than raw flying ability. Being able to function as part of a team, communication, prioritising and managing workload, and not p*ssing off the bloke sat next to you are all at least as important as being able to ace the needles. The vast majority of my colleagues are bloody good at what they do, but that's not because they're brilliant, instinctive stick and rudder pilots. It's because they're professional, conscientious, and put in a lot of effort to stay that way. No-one is perfect, and we all have one or more aspects of our flying that could be improved - that's one of the challenges that keeps the job so fresh. As JB007 pointed out, you'll have good and bad days at the office (and in the sim) throughout your career - it comes with the territory.
Remember that, and you'll appreciate that training difficulties are just part of the learning process. They're not the be-all and and-all that they sometimes appear.
The good news is that it doesn't matter very much, as 90% of approaches are auto-coupled (the way the company likes it) and on the odd occasion when we do hand fly - usually for practice - it's either fully visual, or an ILS using the flight director. If I'd known that during IR training, I could have saved myself an awful lot of sleepless nights. (And before anyone phones the Daily Mail with a scoop about incompetent airline pilots, I've jumped through quite enough hoops to prove I can safely transport joe public from A to B, thank you very much).
Being an airline pilot is about much, much more than raw flying ability. Being able to function as part of a team, communication, prioritising and managing workload, and not p*ssing off the bloke sat next to you are all at least as important as being able to ace the needles. The vast majority of my colleagues are bloody good at what they do, but that's not because they're brilliant, instinctive stick and rudder pilots. It's because they're professional, conscientious, and put in a lot of effort to stay that way. No-one is perfect, and we all have one or more aspects of our flying that could be improved - that's one of the challenges that keeps the job so fresh. As JB007 pointed out, you'll have good and bad days at the office (and in the sim) throughout your career - it comes with the territory.
Remember that, and you'll appreciate that training difficulties are just part of the learning process. They're not the be-all and and-all that they sometimes appear.
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It matters...It shows how fast you can learn...The purpose of any training is to complete it in minimum time required,if you go solo in 20+ hours,than what the 
have you been doing? Those who had 50 extra hours and are proud of their first time passes make me laugh...Once again,you don't need any kind of talent to go solo early,all you need is hard work...To achieve something you always need to sacrifice something...If you waste your time,trying to find out who else here is as useless as you are,instead of discussing the problem with your instructor or reading books that might help,or sitting in the a/c on the ground,etc. etc.,then I should admit that flight deck is not the best place for you.
have you been doing? Those who had 50 extra hours and are proud of their first time passes make me laugh...Once again,you don't need any kind of talent to go solo early,all you need is hard work...To achieve something you always need to sacrifice something...If you waste your time,trying to find out who else here is as useless as you are,instead of discussing the problem with your instructor or reading books that might help,or sitting in the a/c on the ground,etc. etc.,then I should admit that flight deck is not the best place for you.
And even then, an ability to learn quickly, is not a measure of your ulitmate capacity. Einstien didn't learn to speak until he was 3.
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Going solo early says far more about your age, your training frequency, your quality of instruction, your local airfield and the attitudes of your school and instructor than it says about your ability to learn fast.
And even then, an ability to learn quickly, is not a measure of your ulitmate capacity. Einstien didn't learn to speak until he was 3.
And even then, an ability to learn quickly, is not a measure of your ulitmate capacity. Einstien didn't learn to speak until he was 3.
Then we've the second fellow.He's not stupid and he dreams of becoming a pilot aswell.But he's studying only what he has to,doesn't ask any questions,he's trying to fly well,but when the flight is over he's rushing back home or to the pub,then he forgets about it very fast.He's not thinking about his training when he's on the ground.
So who do you think will go solo earlier?
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I would say there is little you can do on the groud to speed up your first solo, and that all the factors i meantioned ealier would have a far greater bearing on you time.
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in resume, if you can not be soloed after 15h-20h, forget about this job!!!
some pilots need 30-40-or even 50h....
some pilots need 30-40-or even 50h....
That's very narrow minded, don't you think. I have no doubt that you’re the greatest pilot the world has ever seen, but if it takes me longer then you, do I just throw in the towel now?
15 hours is an average, after 15 hours, you should be able to make 3 touch and go.
but basically if you reach 70-80h and you are still not soloed after flying everyday , better to give up this job.
Last edited by dartagnan; 3rd May 2009 at 21:19.
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Whirlygig be fair,
It may not be the same as it used to be (so I hear) but there is still a huge amount of prestige and glamour in the job, especially from the perspective of the salary payers.
I personally am an inexperienced FO for a small jet operator, however the response you get from people you've just met when they ask your occupation is incredible, the way people look and treat you when you walk through an airport to staff security is fantastic.
Lawyers certainly do not get that response, or even for that matter doctor's, regardless of the amount of training they require for their occupation.
You are talking from the perspective of a pilot, but how can you compare it to the training of other occupations, have you been through it?
I have a degree (1:1) in business and marketing and used to be a financial advisor, and believe me flight training was far more stressful, required far more study and was by far more intense. Most people who have completed both a degree outside aviation and have completed flight training would agree, very little comparison.
It may not be the same as it used to be (so I hear) but there is still a huge amount of prestige and glamour in the job, especially from the perspective of the salary payers.
I personally am an inexperienced FO for a small jet operator, however the response you get from people you've just met when they ask your occupation is incredible, the way people look and treat you when you walk through an airport to staff security is fantastic.
Lawyers certainly do not get that response, or even for that matter doctor's, regardless of the amount of training they require for their occupation.
You are talking from the perspective of a pilot, but how can you compare it to the training of other occupations, have you been through it?
I have a degree (1:1) in business and marketing and used to be a financial advisor, and believe me flight training was far more stressful, required far more study and was by far more intense. Most people who have completed both a degree outside aviation and have completed flight training would agree, very little comparison.
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Supramkiv,
Er ... yes ... I am a Chartered Accountant which requires a degree (any old degree and mine is Theoretical Physics) and a further three years on-the-job training plus another two to get the Practising Certificate. Exams each year (usually around 6) were for three hours, only 30% multi-guess, the rest being written and if you failed an exam you had to resit all of them (if you kept the job that as most failures got sacked). I hope on that basis, you think I may know a little of what I speak.
Quite simply the hardest thing I've ever done - and my brain was young and fit in those days. ATPL exams, compared to that, were a breeze. Voluminous, but a breeze.
The physical skill of flying I found difficult but then there is nothing comparable within the "professions" since they require intellectual ability only rather than a dextrous skill.
The point I am trying to make is the difference between "glamourous" and "respect and prestige". Whilst nobody, but nobody, is envious of my profession, I am regarded (bizarrely) as a pillar of the community; someone who can counter-sign money-laundering documents, legally sign a set of accounts etc.
In all honesty, most people just consider the $$$ signs when they hear what someone does for a living and that's what adds to the glamour, irrespective of what's required to achieve that position. But I do not think that, academically, a pilot's qualification is even near that of a decent degree.
The original point, (which was a flippant one) and my retort (which was even more flippant until some young thing took umbrage) is that I don't think aviation is prestigious nor, in my case at least, do all women "dig" pilots
Cheers
Whirls
Er ... yes ... I am a Chartered Accountant which requires a degree (any old degree and mine is Theoretical Physics) and a further three years on-the-job training plus another two to get the Practising Certificate. Exams each year (usually around 6) were for three hours, only 30% multi-guess, the rest being written and if you failed an exam you had to resit all of them (if you kept the job that as most failures got sacked). I hope on that basis, you think I may know a little of what I speak.
Quite simply the hardest thing I've ever done - and my brain was young and fit in those days. ATPL exams, compared to that, were a breeze. Voluminous, but a breeze.
The physical skill of flying I found difficult but then there is nothing comparable within the "professions" since they require intellectual ability only rather than a dextrous skill.
The point I am trying to make is the difference between "glamourous" and "respect and prestige". Whilst nobody, but nobody, is envious of my profession, I am regarded (bizarrely) as a pillar of the community; someone who can counter-sign money-laundering documents, legally sign a set of accounts etc.
In all honesty, most people just consider the $$$ signs when they hear what someone does for a living and that's what adds to the glamour, irrespective of what's required to achieve that position. But I do not think that, academically, a pilot's qualification is even near that of a decent degree.
The original point, (which was a flippant one) and my retort (which was even more flippant until some young thing took umbrage) is that I don't think aviation is prestigious nor, in my case at least, do all women "dig" pilots
Cheers
Whirls
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I must agree with Whirlygig here...I've got a degree in computer engineering and ATPL theory is just below any academical level...I'm trying not to tell people that I'm a pilot,though I enjoy every minute of it.And definitely nobody thinks of my profession as a glamorous one ,the usual response is "Don't planes fly on autopilots nowadays?" or "I heard anybody can fly the airplanes" and both seen partially true...If you like it,just enjoy it and don't sell your house to work for Ryanair just to tell everybody that you're a pilot,nobody will respect you.
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Meaning - I don't want to mention names and allow the discussion to become personal, but, if you read the whole thread, you'll understand that there's no need to be so paranoid.
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
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Whirlygig.
Understood. I must be 100% honest though. My views were completely biased and expressed from one point of view only.
I believe also that a disscusion as such will be a never ending debate.
You are right, flying has lost a lot of class and the bar should be raised regarding requirements for acceptance into training orginisations.
My unbiased point of view if i may: the level of theoretical knowledge required is not to the same amount as a Doctor or Lawyer (or many other professions in that case) but, what i believe puts us in the same class as the above is the balance of both the knowledge and the skill required to reach the top of our game. Not many people posess both.
I obviously still have a lot to learn, so no disrespect intended
Cheers.
Understood. I must be 100% honest though. My views were completely biased and expressed from one point of view only.
I believe also that a disscusion as such will be a never ending debate.
You are right, flying has lost a lot of class and the bar should be raised regarding requirements for acceptance into training orginisations.
My unbiased point of view if i may: the level of theoretical knowledge required is not to the same amount as a Doctor or Lawyer (or many other professions in that case) but, what i believe puts us in the same class as the above is the balance of both the knowledge and the skill required to reach the top of our game. Not many people posess both.
I obviously still have a lot to learn, so no disrespect intended
Cheers.
Last edited by A340Crazy; 4th May 2009 at 12:17.
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G-Sxty,
I know you are trying to reassure the original poster, and accepted the chances of the captain having a heart attack and a dual autopilot failure are quite slim, well almost zero, (as well as the your approach been at CAT1 minimas) but if you can't hand fly a raw data ILS you shouldn't be in the RHS.
FLybe are now running an MPL scheme which means at some point you will be a Captain with an MPL trained first officer in the RHS, need I say more.
I know you are trying to reassure the original poster, and accepted the chances of the captain having a heart attack and a dual autopilot failure are quite slim, well almost zero, (as well as the your approach been at CAT1 minimas) but if you can't hand fly a raw data ILS you shouldn't be in the RHS.
FLybe are now running an MPL scheme which means at some point you will be a Captain with an MPL trained first officer in the RHS, need I say more.
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So who do you think will go solo earlier?
I would just re-emphasise to the OP and others from my previous post. Apply yourself and don't be negative, learn from mistakes and move on. Only now at this point in my 'career' where I'm actually considering quitting flying do I realise that I was actually quite good. It was only the circumstances of my training which was difficult and held me back. Couple that with a slight lack of confidence and the doubts began to build. Negativitiy reinforces negativity. Something I would also point out to you here who would paint dark clouds in words on this forum. My own family never helped as they always seemed to believe I was a dreamer.
With hindsight, I now realise I was quite good but my standards were too high. I once aborted a flight test against the protestations of my examiner because I felt I had screwed up already and it wasn't worth continuing. Crazy isn't it? Another time I was so convinced I failed that I was taken aback when he said I passed and almost tried to talk him out of it, almost.
It was all in the head. Recently I carried out an approach and landing while describing it in detail to another pilot on the ground over the radio. (Relax it was a private strip not Heathrow.) Later I realised that I had reached a point where I has sufficient spare capacity to make a landing at a difficult strip and talk about it as I did so. I wouldn't have believed it a few years ago. Of course I also had a couple of go arounds lately just to puncture my lately acquired ego.
That's really what I'm saying, don't let it get to you. I nearly did and might have missed out on an interesting few years.
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@ G Sxty
It's really great to have words from experienced pilots like you. But I have to argue one point though.
Raw flying ability alone can't make a good pilot of someone who isn't enjoying the positive and challenging mental state, especially at the early stage of learning.
Flying ability and the mental readiness should co-exist together. Both are to generate unconsciously competitive pilots.
Cheers
Raw flying ability alone can't make a good pilot of someone who isn't enjoying the positive and challenging mental state, especially at the early stage of learning.
Flying ability and the mental readiness should co-exist together. Both are to generate unconsciously competitive pilots.
Cheers
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Abagnale,
Before I left last week I read your post and in the first few sentences, realised it was absolute tripe hence my telling you to "Put a sock in it". I also did not really like the condesending remarks pertaining to "daddy" being rich enough that it didn't matter how long it took me to complete each stage.
That assumption is as useless as you coming here with some new-found authority that allows you to tell anyone that if they haven't gone solo by 20 hours then they should F-off out of the industry. To anyone embarking on a career, or to low hour PPLs, those words would really put them off IMHO. I have never met a pilot with that attitude.
Perhaps the monkier Abagnale is a cryptic clue to tell us exactly what type of 'pilot' you really are...
Lesson 12/13 are the circuits so once they have been mastered and the instructor has confidence in your own confidence and there is less than a knot of wind!- then he/she may put you solo. When I did my PPL, the weather was not brilliant when it came to my solo flight (circa 16 hours). Considering I had already completed a Gliding Scholarship with the Air Cadets including a solo (trust me when you are that young and don't have an engine for go-around, the gliding solo is
scary) I told him I wasn't bothered. We continued with lessons and finally went solo at 22 hours.
To all who read this thread, minium time is not the be-all and end-all. It is called minimum for a reason. Of course it is good to get close to it as possible.
I also think the OP is not wasting time asking others if they had similar difficulties. What real pilots learn is that mentorship and coaching is as important as the actual training.
Before I left last week I read your post and in the first few sentences, realised it was absolute tripe hence my telling you to "Put a sock in it". I also did not really like the condesending remarks pertaining to "daddy" being rich enough that it didn't matter how long it took me to complete each stage.
That assumption is as useless as you coming here with some new-found authority that allows you to tell anyone that if they haven't gone solo by 20 hours then they should F-off out of the industry. To anyone embarking on a career, or to low hour PPLs, those words would really put them off IMHO. I have never met a pilot with that attitude.
Perhaps the monkier Abagnale is a cryptic clue to tell us exactly what type of 'pilot' you really are...
Lesson 12/13 are the circuits so once they have been mastered and the instructor has confidence in your own confidence and there is less than a knot of wind!- then he/she may put you solo. When I did my PPL, the weather was not brilliant when it came to my solo flight (circa 16 hours). Considering I had already completed a Gliding Scholarship with the Air Cadets including a solo (trust me when you are that young and don't have an engine for go-around, the gliding solo is
scary) I told him I wasn't bothered. We continued with lessons and finally went solo at 22 hours. To all who read this thread, minium time is not the be-all and end-all. It is called minimum for a reason. Of course it is good to get close to it as possible.
I also think the OP is not wasting time asking others if they had similar difficulties. What real pilots learn is that mentorship and coaching is as important as the actual training.
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2 Betpumps:
Mate,you might not like me but all I wrote was truth.The difference between me and you is that I earned my way to the flight deck and you simply bought it
So I think from this point of view I've got more authority,than you,to judge about personal abilities needed to complete the training successfully...I went solo in 11 hours,not the greatest achievement,but I was proud of it,because I deserved it and I never flew anything before manipulating the controls...You wrote that you didn't feel comfortable because the weather wasn't brilliant,now that's an excuse I've heard hundred times before,but I think your instructor was extremely happy about it,so he could earn some extra cash,well done Now if you think about it,will the instructor send you solo in unacceptable meteorological conditions?No,because he's responsible for your life.So what happened then?I will tell you - lack of confidence - your instructor taught you to fly the airplane,but he hasn't made a real man out of you and I think nobody ever will 
Mate,you might not like me but all I wrote was truth.The difference between me and you is that I earned my way to the flight deck and you simply bought it
So I think from this point of view I've got more authority,than you,to judge about personal abilities needed to complete the training successfully...I went solo in 11 hours,not the greatest achievement,but I was proud of it,because I deserved it and I never flew anything before manipulating the controls...You wrote that you didn't feel comfortable because the weather wasn't brilliant,now that's an excuse I've heard hundred times before,but I think your instructor was extremely happy about it,so he could earn some extra cash,well done Now if you think about it,will the instructor send you solo in unacceptable meteorological conditions?No,because he's responsible for your life.So what happened then?I will tell you - lack of confidence - your instructor taught you to fly the airplane,but he hasn't made a real man out of you and I think nobody ever will
Gender Faculty Specialist
Whirls if I may.
I think it depends on who is doing the observing.
As for the rest of you. When I fly with F/O's I couldn't care less how they got there. All that matters is that they do the job that they're getting paid for.
If Daddy has paid for you it may not make you a worse pilot than the next person. Conversely it doesn't mean that you're any better. And vice versa for someone who has held down 4 jobs and brought up a family at the same time as completing a flying course. Basically all that means is that (nearly) everything that has happened before you get the job is pretty irrelevant when you fly with me.
So lets all put a sock in it and stop with the oneupmanship school ground bull****.
Everyone, even the pro's, have bad days and worse days. Everyone makes mistakes. The trick, and the sign of a true professional, is to mitigate those mistakes and learn from them. In general I find that the people who don't learn from mistakes are the ones with the I'm better than you attitude. They are the ones who are more likely to end up as a smoking hole in the side of a hill.
is that I don't think aviation is prestigious
As for the rest of you. When I fly with F/O's I couldn't care less how they got there. All that matters is that they do the job that they're getting paid for.
If Daddy has paid for you it may not make you a worse pilot than the next person. Conversely it doesn't mean that you're any better. And vice versa for someone who has held down 4 jobs and brought up a family at the same time as completing a flying course. Basically all that means is that (nearly) everything that has happened before you get the job is pretty irrelevant when you fly with me.
So lets all put a sock in it and stop with the oneupmanship school ground bull****.
Everyone, even the pro's, have bad days and worse days. Everyone makes mistakes. The trick, and the sign of a true professional, is to mitigate those mistakes and learn from them. In general I find that the people who don't learn from mistakes are the ones with the I'm better than you attitude. They are the ones who are more likely to end up as a smoking hole in the side of a hill.