Is Cabair going to stay alive?
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Hi waco.
Sorry for the delay in getting back. Sorry also for sounding condescending in my original post and I did not intend to come accross this way. I understand and share your frustration on the market outlook.
You asked for some examples of airlines currently recruiting and by that I assume you mean recruiting newly qualified crew? This is tricky but I'm not entirley sure why you're asking me this. In my comments I was trying to allude to the fact that if you want something - like becoming a paid pilot - then you've gotta go get it. You will allways be up against hurdles, recessions, wars , international crises and plenty of personal reasons why you should not do it right now. Every single pilot has borne these concerns to one degree or another (unless you have endless money and time to burn). You can procrastinate until the time is right but will it ever be right for you, or me?
So, what I was trying to say was really as a direct response to you seemingly trying to disuade people from pursuing their dreams. You may well be right on all of the points you mention but you gotta get a foot in the door and one sure fire way of never succeeding is never having tried. I know a bloke that never tried and he is a lovely bloke in a successful career now but he is one of these "I could have been, should have been, would have been" types. He regrets not having tried at least. Incidentally, he was put off by the prospect of the investement never paying off, i.e not getting a job.
A word on investors to respond to High Wing Harry. Harry, in this convoluted capitalist world gone mad it is rare to get investors who actually know about the technicalities, as valuable as it might be. They know the business and accounts inside out but could'nt tell the back end of a 757 from the front of a tug and would probably attempt to attach them in that order! Think Russian's or Americans and football teams! I once bought shares in a pharmaceutical; I know nothing about preparing drugs but knew enough about the performance of the company to invest in a share or two of it.
Sad isn't it? But that's the way it has become now.
I think Cabair is probably a victim of the cash-fluidity becoming cash-solidity crisis which this should be called. This is almost entirley borne out of irrational market fears coming fom unskilled bankers (yes I did mean Bankers) who have now got to work for a living but have just realised they don't know how. They have been crooked for so long they can't stand up straight. It has nothing to do with consumer/business credit or credit-worthiness and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
Sorry for the delay in getting back. Sorry also for sounding condescending in my original post and I did not intend to come accross this way. I understand and share your frustration on the market outlook.
You asked for some examples of airlines currently recruiting and by that I assume you mean recruiting newly qualified crew? This is tricky but I'm not entirley sure why you're asking me this. In my comments I was trying to allude to the fact that if you want something - like becoming a paid pilot - then you've gotta go get it. You will allways be up against hurdles, recessions, wars , international crises and plenty of personal reasons why you should not do it right now. Every single pilot has borne these concerns to one degree or another (unless you have endless money and time to burn). You can procrastinate until the time is right but will it ever be right for you, or me?
So, what I was trying to say was really as a direct response to you seemingly trying to disuade people from pursuing their dreams. You may well be right on all of the points you mention but you gotta get a foot in the door and one sure fire way of never succeeding is never having tried. I know a bloke that never tried and he is a lovely bloke in a successful career now but he is one of these "I could have been, should have been, would have been" types. He regrets not having tried at least. Incidentally, he was put off by the prospect of the investement never paying off, i.e not getting a job.
A word on investors to respond to High Wing Harry. Harry, in this convoluted capitalist world gone mad it is rare to get investors who actually know about the technicalities, as valuable as it might be. They know the business and accounts inside out but could'nt tell the back end of a 757 from the front of a tug and would probably attempt to attach them in that order! Think Russian's or Americans and football teams! I once bought shares in a pharmaceutical; I know nothing about preparing drugs but knew enough about the performance of the company to invest in a share or two of it.
Sad isn't it? But that's the way it has become now.
I think Cabair is probably a victim of the cash-fluidity becoming cash-solidity crisis which this should be called. This is almost entirley borne out of irrational market fears coming fom unskilled bankers (yes I did mean Bankers) who have now got to work for a living but have just realised they don't know how. They have been crooked for so long they can't stand up straight. It has nothing to do with consumer/business credit or credit-worthiness and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
Last edited by StatorVane; 12th Oct 2011 at 12:50.
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Stator
Excellent e-mail and thanks for the reply.
I'm not a pilot. I decided against persuing that route after Dan Air and Air Europe had gone bust. I saw the long line of pilots outside the job centre at LGW and thought.....perhaps not at the moment.
I however worked in civil aviation for more years than I care to remember and have therefore seen the success stories, the guys and gals who have made it. Well done to them !
Alas I have also seen the very many who have not made it. The runined relationships, the bankruptcy and the destroyed lives that have resulted from "following the dream".
These days "following the dream" can cost north of £100,000 and that is really scary especially when the whole of europe teaters on a possible depression never mind a recession. Add to that the decreasing terms and conditions that a flight deck job brings.
Add to that the realities of the flight deck job it self. Often changing bases, up a 3 in morning for days on the run, working christmas and bank holidays and praying that medical is passed every time plus the profficency tests.
All I'm trying to do in my own way is express the reality in todays aviation industry.
Good luck to all at cabair, staff and students I really mean that.
I've been made redundant in aviation more than once. if you are going to work in this industry thats something to get used to.
Oh and finally, as well all know, the only way to make a small fortune in aviation.....is start with a very big fortune.
Excellent e-mail and thanks for the reply.
I'm not a pilot. I decided against persuing that route after Dan Air and Air Europe had gone bust. I saw the long line of pilots outside the job centre at LGW and thought.....perhaps not at the moment.
I however worked in civil aviation for more years than I care to remember and have therefore seen the success stories, the guys and gals who have made it. Well done to them !
Alas I have also seen the very many who have not made it. The runined relationships, the bankruptcy and the destroyed lives that have resulted from "following the dream".
These days "following the dream" can cost north of £100,000 and that is really scary especially when the whole of europe teaters on a possible depression never mind a recession. Add to that the decreasing terms and conditions that a flight deck job brings.
Add to that the realities of the flight deck job it self. Often changing bases, up a 3 in morning for days on the run, working christmas and bank holidays and praying that medical is passed every time plus the profficency tests.
All I'm trying to do in my own way is express the reality in todays aviation industry.
Good luck to all at cabair, staff and students I really mean that.
I've been made redundant in aviation more than once. if you are going to work in this industry thats something to get used to.
Oh and finally, as well all know, the only way to make a small fortune in aviation.....is start with a very big fortune.
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What an horrific email, to my simple head it smacks of throwing good money after bad. Consider the following situations:
1. A few students agree to pay the extra money which goes into the Cabair debt black hole, but not enough students stump up to stop Cabair going into administration so the students that have paid extra lose that money as well as their initial fees that they paid when they signed up to the school.
2. Enough students stump up extra money to keep Cabair alive but some students refuse to pay extra. Do the students that have not paid extra get to continue their training as well as those that did pay extra?
3. Assuming enough students pay up to rescue Cabair now, what happens in 3 months when that extra money is gone and they’re back in the same situation, do the students have to pay even more?
The only way for the students to make anything work is for all of them to form a group and speak with one voice.
It’s interesting to note that the email from Cabair makes no mention of senior staff getting their wallets out to prop up the organisation that has feathered their nests for some time, maybe it’s true that there is no honour among thieves.
Much as it pains me to state it, the only sensible thing to do would be to let the school go into administration and for the affected students to register a claim with the administrator for any money that they are owed for training not yet received. It will take years to settle any claims and no-one will get 100% of what they are owed but some might get a little refund.
As the email states, it’s up to the students to be the jury and it may well be time to ‘send the accused down.’
Whatever the outcome, my sincere best wishes go out the Cabair students and decent ‘shop floor’ employees who are affected by this situation.
1. A few students agree to pay the extra money which goes into the Cabair debt black hole, but not enough students stump up to stop Cabair going into administration so the students that have paid extra lose that money as well as their initial fees that they paid when they signed up to the school.
2. Enough students stump up extra money to keep Cabair alive but some students refuse to pay extra. Do the students that have not paid extra get to continue their training as well as those that did pay extra?
3. Assuming enough students pay up to rescue Cabair now, what happens in 3 months when that extra money is gone and they’re back in the same situation, do the students have to pay even more?
The only way for the students to make anything work is for all of them to form a group and speak with one voice.
It’s interesting to note that the email from Cabair makes no mention of senior staff getting their wallets out to prop up the organisation that has feathered their nests for some time, maybe it’s true that there is no honour among thieves.
Much as it pains me to state it, the only sensible thing to do would be to let the school go into administration and for the affected students to register a claim with the administrator for any money that they are owed for training not yet received. It will take years to settle any claims and no-one will get 100% of what they are owed but some might get a little refund.
As the email states, it’s up to the students to be the jury and it may well be time to ‘send the accused down.’
Whatever the outcome, my sincere best wishes go out the Cabair students and decent ‘shop floor’ employees who are affected by this situation.
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Was that email some kind of sick joke?
I see the original poster (their first post), has deleted it now. I must admit I had my doubts; it was not a cut and paste and contained spelling errors etc.
I see the original poster (their first post), has deleted it now. I must admit I had my doubts; it was not a cut and paste and contained spelling errors etc.
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G-MEOW's message came from Crays Hill, where the gippos occupy Dale Farm!!!! Obviously very agitated......... very << catty >> 
The 'deleted' message was his first under this pseudonym, but it seems that the essence of his 'quoted' email of yesterday was actually correct, although one now talks about a capped sum of £10k.
I understand that at the close of play today, no further efforts by bank or investment group was evident.
Tempus fugit.
The 'deleted' message was his first under this pseudonym, but it seems that the essence of his 'quoted' email of yesterday was actually correct, although one now talks about a capped sum of £10k.
I understand that at the close of play today, no further efforts by bank or investment group was evident.
Tempus fugit.
One that was posted by G-MEOW claiming it to be from within Cabair, then deleted. It claimed that students were being asked for up to £15k each contribution to their courses to keep Cabair afloat. It got deleted a few hours later.
G
G
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Welcome to the wonderful world of insolvency.
There will be no honour amoungst thieves, and unsecured creditors are always the last to see any money regardless of the amount. Students (clients, if you will) - this means you.
I'd be interested to see Wee Weasley Welshman's spin on this.
There will be no honour amoungst thieves, and unsecured creditors are always the last to see any money regardless of the amount. Students (clients, if you will) - this means you.
I'd be interested to see Wee Weasley Welshman's spin on this.
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G-RICH, I like what you said here...
That would seem similar to the FAA Part 61 system.
That and the end of FTOs. As someone above says, there is no problem with the "shop floor" instructors. Have the CAA stick the syllabus and lesson plans on the Net, have instructors register their interest with the CAA and just let them do the job in a suitable aircraft which can be laid on by any flying club or organisation. It would be a bit like AMEs - just go and pick the one that suits you..
G-RICH
HMRC have not been able to claim preferential status in insolvent estates since the Enterprise Act 2002 came into force
Quote from HMRC web site
"References to Crown preference have been removed. HMRC does not have preferential status in the distribution of the assets of an insolvent estate. The former Departments of Customs & Excise and Inland Revenue both lost preferential status on 15 September 2003 under the provisions of the Enterprise Act 2002. At the time of publishing, the Crown still has preferential status in the distribution of the assets of insolvent businesses in Northern Ireland."
HMRC have not been able to claim preferential status in insolvent estates since the Enterprise Act 2002 came into force
Quote from HMRC web site
"References to Crown preference have been removed. HMRC does not have preferential status in the distribution of the assets of an insolvent estate. The former Departments of Customs & Excise and Inland Revenue both lost preferential status on 15 September 2003 under the provisions of the Enterprise Act 2002. At the time of publishing, the Crown still has preferential status in the distribution of the assets of insolvent businesses in Northern Ireland."
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One would assume that any Cabair student using the said product would be a registered user of that product and therefore the product owner would have contact information of those registered users without the need to use this thread to advertise his business under the guise of getting the word out to his customers.
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These collapses don’t happen overnight and we can assume that there have been serious troubles for many months that the top level staff have been fully aware of. It would be interesting to know how many students Cabair have taken money from in the knowledge that they were going under.
Mad Jock made a very interesting contribution to this thread that he was concerned when Cabair were not included in the list of FTOs accredited by BA for their FPP scheme. In the past BA have been happy to take ex Cabair students and one would have thought that Cabair would have been a certainty to be included with OAA, FTE and CTC. I suppose that many months ago BA carried out some sort of due diligence exercise on the FTOs that they were considering for their scheme and discovered that all was not well with Cabair so they didn’t include Cabair in their scheme, despite these serious troubles Cabair continued to take huge sums of money from students, I suppose that it is naïve in the extreme to think that they might have done the honourable and ethical thing rather than continue wringing whatever they could out of the students for as long as possible.
The paradox is that if BA had included Cabair in their scheme then they might have avoided the unholy mess that they are in now, they may have had enough money to survive or used the BA scheme to strengthen their case to the banks to cut them some slack.
If Cabair does survive this they might honour the training paid for by their current students but I cannot see any new students signing up to them, anyone currently seriously considering Cabair for any flight training in the future must be overdosed on insanity tablets.
If Cabair does survive there might be some mileage in making this thread a sticky so that prospective students choosing an FTO can read this information and make an informed decision based on the stability of the school and how they are prepared to treat their students if/ when it all goes wrong.
As always my best wishes to the innocent victims (students and employees).
Mad Jock made a very interesting contribution to this thread that he was concerned when Cabair were not included in the list of FTOs accredited by BA for their FPP scheme. In the past BA have been happy to take ex Cabair students and one would have thought that Cabair would have been a certainty to be included with OAA, FTE and CTC. I suppose that many months ago BA carried out some sort of due diligence exercise on the FTOs that they were considering for their scheme and discovered that all was not well with Cabair so they didn’t include Cabair in their scheme, despite these serious troubles Cabair continued to take huge sums of money from students, I suppose that it is naïve in the extreme to think that they might have done the honourable and ethical thing rather than continue wringing whatever they could out of the students for as long as possible.
The paradox is that if BA had included Cabair in their scheme then they might have avoided the unholy mess that they are in now, they may have had enough money to survive or used the BA scheme to strengthen their case to the banks to cut them some slack.
If Cabair does survive this they might honour the training paid for by their current students but I cannot see any new students signing up to them, anyone currently seriously considering Cabair for any flight training in the future must be overdosed on insanity tablets.
If Cabair does survive there might be some mileage in making this thread a sticky so that prospective students choosing an FTO can read this information and make an informed decision based on the stability of the school and how they are prepared to treat their students if/ when it all goes wrong.
As always my best wishes to the innocent victims (students and employees).
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Since the much talked about email has been deleted, I can confirm it's contents in brief-
(apologies, as original is in PDF and it's too long to retype!!!)
My view and input: The current investors/management really do want to do the right thing for the students, and don't want to see people loosing money, but there are few options left at this point.
I agree with previous posters who ask "who would pay to come to this school now?"
So, in a few months time when the new students starting the course income dries up, how will the company go forward?
Maybe a large discount on the course if you pay up front!!!!
Students I know have already started talking to other schools to finish their training, and special quotes are being made for them from other FTO's. Some are willing to pay the top up, if guarantees are made, some are refusing, some can't afford it.
How they will manage some students paying and some not, could be very interesting.
(apologies, as original is in PDF and it's too long to retype!!!)
- Efforts to get offers for the company as a whole were unsuccessful
- The existing investors/management (from the buyout last year) do want to honour all contracts for students and continue the business, the bank disagree. The students are referred to a 'pre paid liability'. The investors/management are still determined to make it work somehow, and clearly want to do the right thing by the students, and they are willing to add funds to keep things going.
- But students will be asked to pay UP TO £15k, depending on stage of training, this is to supplement the investor/management funds. Again, that figure is an UP TO figure. It will depend on hours flown and original price paid. Max is 15k.
- It is a situation of top up fee's, or face administration.
- It must still be presented (and accepted) with the bank and the CAA, and no money will change hands without agreement from those parties.
- The 'top up fee' will come with other benefits to graduates and training guarantee's, there is no mention of how the money would be paid or held or guaranteed.
- They plan to assist more with airline placement, and other discounts for the students while they are on the course, by utilizing their collective power for discounts with local companies at Cranfield.
- A response from the bank is expected by monday, if approved, it will mean a new company, taking on the liability of the old students, and requiring transfer of approvals from the CAA. All of which is already in motion.
My view and input: The current investors/management really do want to do the right thing for the students, and don't want to see people loosing money, but there are few options left at this point.
I agree with previous posters who ask "who would pay to come to this school now?"
So, in a few months time when the new students starting the course income dries up, how will the company go forward?
Maybe a large discount on the course if you pay up front!!!!
Students I know have already started talking to other schools to finish their training, and special quotes are being made for them from other FTO's. Some are willing to pay the top up, if guarantees are made, some are refusing, some can't afford it.
How they will manage some students paying and some not, could be very interesting.
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Quote from directvector:
"They plan to assist more with airline placement, and other discounts for the students while they are on the course, by utilizing their collective power for discounts with local companies at Cranfield.".......
Well that would be a first! I've been finished Cabair Integrated now 3yrs and am still waiting for any sort of 'assistance' to be offered!!!!! and before you think I'm just another ex Cabair who didn't make the cut I got a first time I.R, first time/first series passes in all other tests as well as first time ground school passes with a 95% average. Since I've been finished I haven't heard of them recommending one person to an airline (I'm not counting the Flybe sponsored guys who have already passed an assessment before embarking on the course).
I feel for the current crop of students, instructors and admin staff who are suffering due to this situartion.
"They plan to assist more with airline placement, and other discounts for the students while they are on the course, by utilizing their collective power for discounts with local companies at Cranfield.".......
Well that would be a first! I've been finished Cabair Integrated now 3yrs and am still waiting for any sort of 'assistance' to be offered!!!!! and before you think I'm just another ex Cabair who didn't make the cut I got a first time I.R, first time/first series passes in all other tests as well as first time ground school passes with a 95% average. Since I've been finished I haven't heard of them recommending one person to an airline (I'm not counting the Flybe sponsored guys who have already passed an assessment before embarking on the course).
I feel for the current crop of students, instructors and admin staff who are suffering due to this situartion.
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Groundschool Alternatives?
In light of the cabair uncertainties would anyone be prepared to reccommend alternative providers?
My position is this. I had signed up to start with cabair groundschool and my personal commitements mean I can't afford to delay it until next year. So the only other options appear to be Oxford, CATS or Flying Time. Full time is the route I want to take.
Oxford want £4700 up front but i don't see evidence that they are tyrpically £1700 worth better than the rest, but would be pleased to be corrected on that. Most come in at about £3K.
BCFT look very good, fit very well with my current arrangements and accommodation etc but don't start a new course until next Jan. They started 2 weeks ago and I dropped a clanger there. Could someone start 2-3 weeks late?
Any other ideas? I'm against the clock with this
Of course I'm hoping Cabair, as my preffered choice, get something sorted here.
My position is this. I had signed up to start with cabair groundschool and my personal commitements mean I can't afford to delay it until next year. So the only other options appear to be Oxford, CATS or Flying Time. Full time is the route I want to take.
Oxford want £4700 up front but i don't see evidence that they are tyrpically £1700 worth better than the rest, but would be pleased to be corrected on that. Most come in at about £3K.
BCFT look very good, fit very well with my current arrangements and accommodation etc but don't start a new course until next Jan. They started 2 weeks ago and I dropped a clanger there. Could someone start 2-3 weeks late?
Any other ideas? I'm against the clock with this
Of course I'm hoping Cabair, as my preffered choice, get something sorted here.
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Cheers Rich,
Do you know anything about Oxford or CATS? I know Oxfords reputation is good but any idea why they charge what they do? Is there something I am missing?
Thanks
Oh by the way, with Oxford do you get all those nice DVD roms and CBTs that they do?
Do you know anything about Oxford or CATS? I know Oxfords reputation is good but any idea why they charge what they do? Is there something I am missing?
Thanks
Oh by the way, with Oxford do you get all those nice DVD roms and CBTs that they do?
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magicmick,
On the contrary, I understand that BA made a decision during the last sponsorship scheme over ten years ago that they would not endorse Cabair as a training provider for future cadets for a number of reasons. If I recall correctly only one class passed through Cranfield. That said, I know plenty of Cabair alumni who are currently at BA in addition to the former cadets. Trent Air Services, the predecessor to CCAT was a top quality training establishment in the same league as the BAe Flying College (now FTE), OATS and CTC - when Cabair took over a lot was lost in my opinion.
As a former employee, I wish the students and staff the best of luck.
Mad Jock made a very interesting contribution to this thread that he was concerned when Cabair were not included in the list of FTOs accredited by BA for their FPP scheme. In the past BA have been happy to take ex Cabair students and one would have thought that Cabair would have been a certainty to be included with OAA, FTE and CTC. I suppose that many months ago BA carried out some sort of due diligence exercise on the FTOs that they were considering for their scheme and discovered that all was not well with Cabair so they didn’t include Cabair in their scheme,
As a former employee, I wish the students and staff the best of luck.
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I visited an open day at Cranfiled a couple of months ago.
My impression was that those at the top had a sincere intention to get things right, but there was an unhealthy air of desperation. Lots of enthusiasm but something just didn't feel right.
They were a bit too quick to be a little damning of their rivals and I felt they had confused things by introducing Flight Level 500.
All in all it was as if they were playing catch up, and it now seems that they might have run out of time.
Ground school seemed as good as anywhere else, basic flight training seemed in the same league as else where (overseas), but there appeared to be a large gap when it came to the business end of sim training and employment opportunities.
I took my other half along and she thought they were heading in the right direction but still had some way to go to match the high standards set by the other FTOs during their open days. She's a proper grown-up business woman, where as I come from a media background, so I trust her view.
The offer of an on the spot £10k discount did not reassure - to be honest, and I know it's a shame, the writing was on the wall. I was warned by another hopeful at the open day that they had already lost a lot of their fleet due to financial difficulties. It's never a good sign once gossip starts.
I hope I haven't offended anyone but this was my experience and my gut feeling seems to have been vindicated.
I wish anyone caught up in this all the best.
My impression was that those at the top had a sincere intention to get things right, but there was an unhealthy air of desperation. Lots of enthusiasm but something just didn't feel right.
They were a bit too quick to be a little damning of their rivals and I felt they had confused things by introducing Flight Level 500.
All in all it was as if they were playing catch up, and it now seems that they might have run out of time.
Ground school seemed as good as anywhere else, basic flight training seemed in the same league as else where (overseas), but there appeared to be a large gap when it came to the business end of sim training and employment opportunities.
I took my other half along and she thought they were heading in the right direction but still had some way to go to match the high standards set by the other FTOs during their open days. She's a proper grown-up business woman, where as I come from a media background, so I trust her view.
The offer of an on the spot £10k discount did not reassure - to be honest, and I know it's a shame, the writing was on the wall. I was warned by another hopeful at the open day that they had already lost a lot of their fleet due to financial difficulties. It's never a good sign once gossip starts.
I hope I haven't offended anyone but this was my experience and my gut feeling seems to have been vindicated.
I wish anyone caught up in this all the best.
In the half dozen years I've been spending significant time at Cranfield, it's also been noticeable that there have been two flying training communities at EGTC: Cabair (who all talk to each other) and "Everybody else", who also all talk to each other.
Not sure why that's been the case, but it has been quite noticeable. I wonder if to some extent this attitude has stretched through the company - "we're part of Cabair" rather than "we're part of the flying community", and it's not helped them much?
G
Not sure why that's been the case, but it has been quite noticeable. I wonder if to some extent this attitude has stretched through the company - "we're part of Cabair" rather than "we're part of the flying community", and it's not helped them much?
G
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Hi Reversebucket
Many thanks for putting me right on my false assumptions which were made from an 'outside looking in' perspective and will not stand up against your insider knowledge going back many years.
No offence intended.
Lets hope that a rescue package can be agreed, if only to get the current students through their training.
Many thanks for putting me right on my false assumptions which were made from an 'outside looking in' perspective and will not stand up against your insider knowledge going back many years.
No offence intended.
Lets hope that a rescue package can be agreed, if only to get the current students through their training.