Stay Away From Cabair Bournemouth
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Rob - The rumours are true. EPTA flying side is moving right around the other side of the airfield. With no direct access from the main offices to where they are to be located I would guess that some of the admin will also move i.e payign for flight. otherwise that will be a complete pain in the arse! A 5 minute walk turned into a 5 minute drive (when the traffic around the permiter road is good that is). Anyway, that's upto them.
FS
FS
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Sorry BIA, you were right.
What i don't understand why are cabair getting into bed with a maintenace company when theuy should be indulging their students!!!
Good luck to worldwide as well as any company that has cabair dna over it always loses.
What i don't understand why are cabair getting into bed with a maintenace company when theuy should be indulging their students!!!
Good luck to worldwide as well as any company that has cabair dna over it always loses.
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The flying side moving may have been done to allow expansion of the groundschool facilities etc. I may be wrong but that's how it appears anyway. The number of students has grown with the Uni courses over the last few months so maybe that's why.
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not really relevant to this thread but understand that there will be a new maintenance organisation starting up on the north west sector of the airport, middle to late next year, primarily catering for the GA world up to kingairs etc..
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waste of space
I have to say when I read this thread I was pretty shocked, such a damming report from a school that did me such good.
I spent a good 6 months there doing my ATPL theory a little while ago and have used CabAir for every part of my training from 0 hours right through. CabAir (just like every FTO) has its problems, instructors come and go, its the nature of the job i'm afraid.
One of the biggest areas that I feel you outlined was about lack of scheduals. Surely you must realise you are training to be a "Commercial Pilot" hense you need to start taking ownership of your training. What will you do if your working for Ryanair and your fuel isn't there on time? You'd obviously talk to whoever you needed to to sort the problem out.
Ultimately you failed something with CabAir and have now decided it is their fault and not your own. One thing I have leart from my training is that there are no perfect pilots just like there are no perfect FTO's but if you sit there and bad mouth places on PPRuNe then it shows a lot about your attitude to flying in general.
My advice to you would be to look into the statistics. Your claim that NOBODY passes first time with CabAir is ridiculous. CabAir owns the most successful CPL programme in the UK based at Wycombe which achieves 90% plus first series passes and 100% second series passes. I know because I did the research and I passed with CabAir FIRST TIME!!!
If you treat the staff at Bournemouth with respect and if they see you are dedicated and hard working they will do their best for you, FACT!!!!
I spent a good 6 months there doing my ATPL theory a little while ago and have used CabAir for every part of my training from 0 hours right through. CabAir (just like every FTO) has its problems, instructors come and go, its the nature of the job i'm afraid.
One of the biggest areas that I feel you outlined was about lack of scheduals. Surely you must realise you are training to be a "Commercial Pilot" hense you need to start taking ownership of your training. What will you do if your working for Ryanair and your fuel isn't there on time? You'd obviously talk to whoever you needed to to sort the problem out.
Ultimately you failed something with CabAir and have now decided it is their fault and not your own. One thing I have leart from my training is that there are no perfect pilots just like there are no perfect FTO's but if you sit there and bad mouth places on PPRuNe then it shows a lot about your attitude to flying in general.
My advice to you would be to look into the statistics. Your claim that NOBODY passes first time with CabAir is ridiculous. CabAir owns the most successful CPL programme in the UK based at Wycombe which achieves 90% plus first series passes and 100% second series passes. I know because I did the research and I passed with CabAir FIRST TIME!!!
If you treat the staff at Bournemouth with respect and if they see you are dedicated and hard working they will do their best for you, FACT!!!!
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Cabair
on the good side, most the instructors are nice, knowledgeable and very helpful when they teach. They have handouts that are updated and good reference. They do not hesitate to give up their lunches to help out! Generally most students do pass on first attempt, but no matter where you go, IF YOUR WILLING DO THE WORK YOU WILL PASS TOO.
On to the not so good side now. The problem here it's a pretty lengthy list, but I'll talk about the most popular ones. 1) The text books, are out of date and a complete waste of time to read. Pretty much why the instructors are forced to give out hundreds (yes hundreds) of pieces a paper per class to make up for it. A lot of students for example bought Bristol GS books in the beginning to make up for the crappy books. 2) Yes the walk to the planes can be annoying, but not a ridiculously big deal. 3) Getting any money owed to you is utterly useless! At times I walked in quite politely asking for the money and kept getting excuses such as they have to talk to head office or I should get everyone together in the class who wants there money. (that is not my job, I was only asking for what was mine). At times I really needed the money too. 4) The building could be in a little better shape but not a disaster 5) this is the biggest problem. Over the instructors heads and yes to someone high in the ground instruction section. This person literally treats the ground instruction like "headmaster to students/kids" in a boarding school. Not "teacher to students" and adults/customers, like it should be. A rude offending comment/threat was made to the class in an occasion, which was not necessary! (I will keep the actual comment on the down low for its offending matter). This person hands out letters about absences and has suggested getting Dr. notes if sick. (this cost 10pounds, plus 90% of the time a Dr. note it not necessary just a day or 2 of bed rest) If absences is a problem with some students, this person would get so much further ahead if he/she just sat down the class and said at the beginning about there is a minimum amount of hrs to be made and over the course it works out to "X" amount of days. You miss out that much then you can not write, THAT SIMPLE! Instead of hiding the actual minimum from everyone and talking down (literally like your 10yrs old). 6) Also kind of has to do with 5...recently a certificate was brought out upon completion. At first it seemed like a good idea until when you take a look at it, it litterally looks like a 10yrs old did it on photoshop, with a cartoon looking plane in the back. Also at the end of the certificate student may have a 95% in the end but got 1 test e.g. 79 the certificate will say a bare pass student. Should say "honour role 90%+ or nothing at all) Pretty unprofessional really, what's currently there. Take a look at any degree or certificate handed out from a school and it looks professional, not an embareassing one you wouldn't want to show to an possible employer.
I myself have turned away a friend from school at Cabair for it's ground school reasons (which probably effects it's flying side of the school) I just hope Cabair take a look at a couple issues and fixes it for there own sake!
On to the not so good side now. The problem here it's a pretty lengthy list, but I'll talk about the most popular ones. 1) The text books, are out of date and a complete waste of time to read. Pretty much why the instructors are forced to give out hundreds (yes hundreds) of pieces a paper per class to make up for it. A lot of students for example bought Bristol GS books in the beginning to make up for the crappy books. 2) Yes the walk to the planes can be annoying, but not a ridiculously big deal. 3) Getting any money owed to you is utterly useless! At times I walked in quite politely asking for the money and kept getting excuses such as they have to talk to head office or I should get everyone together in the class who wants there money. (that is not my job, I was only asking for what was mine). At times I really needed the money too. 4) The building could be in a little better shape but not a disaster 5) this is the biggest problem. Over the instructors heads and yes to someone high in the ground instruction section. This person literally treats the ground instruction like "headmaster to students/kids" in a boarding school. Not "teacher to students" and adults/customers, like it should be. A rude offending comment/threat was made to the class in an occasion, which was not necessary! (I will keep the actual comment on the down low for its offending matter). This person hands out letters about absences and has suggested getting Dr. notes if sick. (this cost 10pounds, plus 90% of the time a Dr. note it not necessary just a day or 2 of bed rest) If absences is a problem with some students, this person would get so much further ahead if he/she just sat down the class and said at the beginning about there is a minimum amount of hrs to be made and over the course it works out to "X" amount of days. You miss out that much then you can not write, THAT SIMPLE! Instead of hiding the actual minimum from everyone and talking down (literally like your 10yrs old). 6) Also kind of has to do with 5...recently a certificate was brought out upon completion. At first it seemed like a good idea until when you take a look at it, it litterally looks like a 10yrs old did it on photoshop, with a cartoon looking plane in the back. Also at the end of the certificate student may have a 95% in the end but got 1 test e.g. 79 the certificate will say a bare pass student. Should say "honour role 90%+ or nothing at all) Pretty unprofessional really, what's currently there. Take a look at any degree or certificate handed out from a school and it looks professional, not an embareassing one you wouldn't want to show to an possible employer.
I myself have turned away a friend from school at Cabair for it's ground school reasons (which probably effects it's flying side of the school) I just hope Cabair take a look at a couple issues and fixes it for there own sake!
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Mr Blue 1, I agree with the odd comment that you made however you are passing judgement on things you do not know everything about.
For example, did you know that the Flying side of Cabair Bournemouth is being re-located to a new facility on the opposite side of the airfield next to the ramp where the a/c are to be located?
Did you also know that the original groundschool building is set to be re-vamped and designed for just groundschool similar to those at Cranfield?
What about the new management structure being put in place with Wycombe Air Centre in charge of the training standards?
For those of you that do not already know, Wycombe has the best CPL pass rate in the UK and having studied there I know the standards that are expected.
The CabAir textbooks are shocking, I totally agree, I think i might have used them for comms & that was it. I agree that side needs to be seriously looked into however it costs money and CabAir are having to make many instructores redundant due to the recession so I doubt they can afford to pay 3 or 4 instructors to spend all their time re designing the textbooks like Oxford had to a few years back.
For example, did you know that the Flying side of Cabair Bournemouth is being re-located to a new facility on the opposite side of the airfield next to the ramp where the a/c are to be located?
Did you also know that the original groundschool building is set to be re-vamped and designed for just groundschool similar to those at Cranfield?
What about the new management structure being put in place with Wycombe Air Centre in charge of the training standards?
For those of you that do not already know, Wycombe has the best CPL pass rate in the UK and having studied there I know the standards that are expected.
The CabAir textbooks are shocking, I totally agree, I think i might have used them for comms & that was it. I agree that side needs to be seriously looked into however it costs money and CabAir are having to make many instructores redundant due to the recession so I doubt they can afford to pay 3 or 4 instructors to spend all their time re designing the textbooks like Oxford had to a few years back.
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you may well have however I have seen the letter from the CAA congratulating Wycombe and specifically stating that they currently boast the best pass rates in the UK!!
proof is proof my friend!!
proof is proof my friend!!
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You may have seen a letter but it depends how far back the records began, if its for a week, a month, a year, 10 years, how long the school has been operating?
A new school starts up next week and gets one guy through his CPL first go, a 100% record then, they loose there CPL instructor so only do PPL for 6 months, a year, whatever, do they then get a letter from the CAA saying congrats on your 100% CPL record for stated time period/year.
Is the CAA letter sent out annualy, weekly, does it state over a given time period?
The school I went to, me and another guy where the first 2 cpl students for a particular instructor, we both passed first go, the school stated during a phone conversation with someone 'he has a 100% record for 1st time passes' well yes he does but come on...see what Im getting at figures can be played with.
Not looking for an argument or saying I dont believe you, just interested on what facts and figures the statistic is based on, and nothing on there website regarding it, they should be shouting it from the rooftops at this present time.
A new school starts up next week and gets one guy through his CPL first go, a 100% record then, they loose there CPL instructor so only do PPL for 6 months, a year, whatever, do they then get a letter from the CAA saying congrats on your 100% CPL record for stated time period/year.
Is the CAA letter sent out annualy, weekly, does it state over a given time period?
The school I went to, me and another guy where the first 2 cpl students for a particular instructor, we both passed first go, the school stated during a phone conversation with someone 'he has a 100% record for 1st time passes' well yes he does but come on...see what Im getting at figures can be played with.
Not looking for an argument or saying I dont believe you, just interested on what facts and figures the statistic is based on, and nothing on there website regarding it, they should be shouting it from the rooftops at this present time.
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Cabair have had their aircraft based around the north east side of the airport at a place called worldwide aviation. I am not sure what the extent of their relationship is (ie cabair bought into worldwide) but cabair have already made an impact in their new location, quite literally by damaging a cessna caravan in a taxing incident with one of their duchesses..(could worldwide already be regretting this merger).
I also understand that cabair have their aircraft based over on the north east side with their flight ops still at north west side which must be at the very best a ten mile round trip by car.
I did not realise that the caa were sending out congratulatory to organisations for doing their job well, can we expect them to send letters out to fto's that might not be acheiving the pass rates that wycombe are and publicising them therefore helping potential students choose their ftos ..no didn't think so,
I also understand that cabair have their aircraft based over on the north east side with their flight ops still at north west side which must be at the very best a ten mile round trip by car.
I did not realise that the caa were sending out congratulatory to organisations for doing their job well, can we expect them to send letters out to fto's that might not be acheiving the pass rates that wycombe are and publicising them therefore helping potential students choose their ftos ..no didn't think so,
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I did not realise that the caa were sending out congratulatory to organisations for doing their job well
oh please, stop to belive the number of BS on line like.
100% of student pass their test with a 100%...what about bristol in this case?
since I am in this business, 1990, it has always been the same. all bullock!
the school near where I live, just closed their doors, taking money of their students.
that's the reality guys. so go head, believe what you want, schools wants your money, nothing else. they don't care about you, they care about your money!oxford or cabair, or XXX, they are just a business to make money.
just be ready to lose your money if you are in one of these integrated scam schools, because recession is here, and sounds like more a depression than a recession.
so play SAFE, go modular, and stay away from these schools asking you thousand of grands in advance.
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sounds like someone has sour grapes dartagnan!!
to answer your question Nearly There, Wycombe has been operating for over 40 years with the same management structure in place for in excess of 20.
Put it this way, the school has been congratulated on its training and its success in getting students through, take from it what you like but i have never been in a school like it & i have never seen a CEO work so hard to give students what they want and need.
to answer your question Nearly There, Wycombe has been operating for over 40 years with the same management structure in place for in excess of 20.
Put it this way, the school has been congratulated on its training and its success in getting students through, take from it what you like but i have never been in a school like it & i have never seen a CEO work so hard to give students what they want and need.
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perso, I dont really care where guys spend their money, cuz flight school will get you and will suck you dry!
but i have a good laugh, when guys say this and that, they pass 100% to some crap of written test, etc...in my time, we didnt have computer, and we passed tests as well.
at the end, all matter count is money, and motivationand how much money you will have left.
plenty of good schools at decent price around. the futur is modular.so look for modular, and give up these expensive schools.
I go fly now...
but i have a good laugh, when guys say this and that, they pass 100% to some crap of written test, etc...in my time, we didnt have computer, and we passed tests as well.
at the end, all matter count is money, and motivationand how much money you will have left.
plenty of good schools at decent price around. the futur is modular.so look for modular, and give up these expensive schools.
I go fly now...
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Cabair
Ok "Nearly There" is quite correct! All schools (At least the management side of it) Is only out to make money. They wouldn't have a job if they didn't. The thing is how they go about doing it.
All schools will alter pass rates etc to there advantage. i.e. taking a class that all passed well one year, and leaving out the not so go class in another. How do you think a school would do if they claimed only an 80% pass rate when all other ones altered there mark to 100% and yes Jamie23... I do have evidence to this, by knowing a former instructors myself explaining a bit of the behind scene advertisements. I've talked to and seen students who have failed at schools who claim high "assured" pass rates. So there is a bit of tampering going on!
Also yes I did know Cabair is apparently "restructuring" the building and flying fleet is in a new facility! Hence why this wasn't a big deal in my report however this is the current situation, and the people considering Cabair in the next year or years (if this "re-vamping" ever gets started) should know about.
As for this new management system set up by Wycombe to Cabair. Let me take a quote from there website. "The company’s prime objective has always been to provide honest high quality of service. A friendly and professional atmosphere is always in evidence." If that includes offence threats to a class (again will not say on this website for it's potential harm) from a CGI, childish looking certificates that label students as "bare pass" with over 90% average (NO FAILS), and pushing to know what you do in your absences as adults (people sick, gone to friends funeral, business emergency) then ya that management system is well professional... it is obviously in need of looking. This is the current situation and people considering Cabair Bournemouth now should know about.
All schools will alter pass rates etc to there advantage. i.e. taking a class that all passed well one year, and leaving out the not so go class in another. How do you think a school would do if they claimed only an 80% pass rate when all other ones altered there mark to 100% and yes Jamie23... I do have evidence to this, by knowing a former instructors myself explaining a bit of the behind scene advertisements. I've talked to and seen students who have failed at schools who claim high "assured" pass rates. So there is a bit of tampering going on!
Also yes I did know Cabair is apparently "restructuring" the building and flying fleet is in a new facility! Hence why this wasn't a big deal in my report however this is the current situation, and the people considering Cabair in the next year or years (if this "re-vamping" ever gets started) should know about.
As for this new management system set up by Wycombe to Cabair. Let me take a quote from there website. "The company’s prime objective has always been to provide honest high quality of service. A friendly and professional atmosphere is always in evidence." If that includes offence threats to a class (again will not say on this website for it's potential harm) from a CGI, childish looking certificates that label students as "bare pass" with over 90% average (NO FAILS), and pushing to know what you do in your absences as adults (people sick, gone to friends funeral, business emergency) then ya that management system is well professional... it is obviously in need of looking. This is the current situation and people considering Cabair Bournemouth now should know about.
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All your bluff and bull**** edited Keith,
That will remain the case as long as FTO's and CAA don't publish actual audited results.
Doesn't matter how many McDonald's stars you hand out for best handwriting and polished shoes when the training industry makes sure no one can see the truth. I've listened to all the no but, yes buts from FTO's for more that 30 years now - I started in September 1975.
Don't even dream about putting up that pathetic grading system again. Marketing spin, bull**** and nothing else as long as potential students can't find the same information they can about their secondary school and its results.
For students outside the UK: I'm sure regular PPRuNers can and will provide links to their secondary schools to demonstrate my point. Direct comparison of results across schools in the UK via the internet.
Flight Schools taking tens of thousands of pounds from you - no audited, impartial information.
CAA taking hundreds in exam fees from you- no audited, impartial information on the schools and their results
Free secondary schooling in the UK? - deluged in information, league tables and historical data.
The reason PPRuNe is run by experienced, working airline pilots is because no other bastards will tell you the whole, spinfree truth.
Rob
That will remain the case as long as FTO's and CAA don't publish actual audited results.
Doesn't matter how many McDonald's stars you hand out for best handwriting and polished shoes when the training industry makes sure no one can see the truth. I've listened to all the no but, yes buts from FTO's for more that 30 years now - I started in September 1975.
Don't even dream about putting up that pathetic grading system again. Marketing spin, bull**** and nothing else as long as potential students can't find the same information they can about their secondary school and its results.
For students outside the UK: I'm sure regular PPRuNers can and will provide links to their secondary schools to demonstrate my point. Direct comparison of results across schools in the UK via the internet.
Flight Schools taking tens of thousands of pounds from you - no audited, impartial information.
CAA taking hundreds in exam fees from you- no audited, impartial information on the schools and their results
Free secondary schooling in the UK? - deluged in information, league tables and historical data.
The reason PPRuNe is run by experienced, working airline pilots is because no other bastards will tell you the whole, spinfree truth.
Rob
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To Mr Blue 1
I posted a response to your comments, but it was removed by one of the Moderators. A copy will be placed on the notice board so that you and all of the other students can consider it.
To Rob The Moderator.
The Certificate was introduced because it is a CAA requirement (specified in the Standards Document for Ground Schools). I first became aware of this after a PPRUNE member asked about such certificates here on PPRUNE. When I reasearched the matter I found the requirement. At the moment very few schools issue them, but all ground school students are entitled to receive one.
The grading system was introduced because some students had asked for one. You will also find students asking for a grading system in the BGS Website. For fairly obvious reasons, such systems will be popular with students who expect to do well, but less so with those who expect to do badly.
Whilst you may critiscise the lack of clarrity in the wider field of Flight Training, the EPTA ground school grading system is entirely transparent.
It includes 3 pages.
The first page gives the student's name, the grade awarded and the date.
The second page gives a list of the results for all 14 of the JAR exams. This is something that many students in many schools have been asking for for a long time. The CAA issue a results sheet for each exam sitting, but they do not issue a single overall record. In many cases the students have lost their CAA resulst list by the time they start their commercial flying training, so they have to call back to the school to get a free replacement (or pay £30 to the CAA for one) It also gives details of attendance record and attitude to training. There is nothing about nice handwriting or shiny shoes I'm afraid. Many students wear trainers with their uniform, so shiny shoes are out of the question.
The third page shows a table specifying exactly how the grading system works.
You may question whether such a certificate has any value, but it is not reasonable to argue that it is not transparent. Even if only a single school were to award such certificates, any reader could immediately understand how the grade was determined.
A number of the comments made by Mr Blue were quite simply untrue.
I posted a response to your comments, but it was removed by one of the Moderators. A copy will be placed on the notice board so that you and all of the other students can consider it.
To Rob The Moderator.
The Certificate was introduced because it is a CAA requirement (specified in the Standards Document for Ground Schools). I first became aware of this after a PPRUNE member asked about such certificates here on PPRUNE. When I reasearched the matter I found the requirement. At the moment very few schools issue them, but all ground school students are entitled to receive one.
The grading system was introduced because some students had asked for one. You will also find students asking for a grading system in the BGS Website. For fairly obvious reasons, such systems will be popular with students who expect to do well, but less so with those who expect to do badly.
Whilst you may critiscise the lack of clarrity in the wider field of Flight Training, the EPTA ground school grading system is entirely transparent.
It includes 3 pages.
The first page gives the student's name, the grade awarded and the date.
The second page gives a list of the results for all 14 of the JAR exams. This is something that many students in many schools have been asking for for a long time. The CAA issue a results sheet for each exam sitting, but they do not issue a single overall record. In many cases the students have lost their CAA resulst list by the time they start their commercial flying training, so they have to call back to the school to get a free replacement (or pay £30 to the CAA for one) It also gives details of attendance record and attitude to training. There is nothing about nice handwriting or shiny shoes I'm afraid. Many students wear trainers with their uniform, so shiny shoes are out of the question.
The third page shows a table specifying exactly how the grading system works.
You may question whether such a certificate has any value, but it is not reasonable to argue that it is not transparent. Even if only a single school were to award such certificates, any reader could immediately understand how the grade was determined.
A number of the comments made by Mr Blue were quite simply untrue.
Last edited by Keith.Williams.; 10th Feb 2009 at 19:23.
