Growing evidence that the downturn is upon us....
Supercharged PPRuNer
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As someone who started training just before 9/11, I have read this thread with interest. I would echo the advice that this is a risky time to commit to integrated training, even assuming that finance is still available. And it's not just about money; people often overlook the fact that an integrated course ties you to a fixed schedule - you will be finishing in xx months, whatever the state of the job market. Just ask a good friend of mine who signed on the dotted line at Jerez (BAe Systems as it was then) in August 2001 . . .
If I learned anything from watching the bottom fall out of the market post 9/11, it is that modular training gives one much - much - greater flexibility. There is the option to work while flying part-time, paying for your training as you go, and at any time you can accelerate or delay your schedule according to market conditions. My only full-time training was the CPL/IR, which meant I had a licence in my hand just four months after leaving my day job. Last year I was willing to bet that the market would hold for that long, and the gamble paid off - I was very fortunate to get an airline job within 3 months of finishing training.
Would I take that same risk now? Probably not.
Would I commit to an integrated course now and bet that there will be lots of jobs for newbies in 18 months time? Definitely not.
Would I be trying to raise £70k (no doubt with someone's house as security) in the current economic climate? I'd need my head examined.
Having been around Pprune almost as long as WWW I'd agree that he tends to be more pessimistic than most, but I think his advice is pretty good here.
If I learned anything from watching the bottom fall out of the market post 9/11, it is that modular training gives one much - much - greater flexibility. There is the option to work while flying part-time, paying for your training as you go, and at any time you can accelerate or delay your schedule according to market conditions. My only full-time training was the CPL/IR, which meant I had a licence in my hand just four months after leaving my day job. Last year I was willing to bet that the market would hold for that long, and the gamble paid off - I was very fortunate to get an airline job within 3 months of finishing training.
Would I take that same risk now? Probably not.
Would I commit to an integrated course now and bet that there will be lots of jobs for newbies in 18 months time? Definitely not.
Would I be trying to raise £70k (no doubt with someone's house as security) in the current economic climate? I'd need my head examined.
Having been around Pprune almost as long as WWW I'd agree that he tends to be more pessimistic than most, but I think his advice is pretty good here.
Thanks for that G SXTY - people's personal histories always make compelling reading.
Whilst my analysis for the economic conditions ahead is very gloomy I've never said anywhere on this thread that people should abandon any thoughts of training, give up and desert their dreams. Never have a I said that.
We certainly have windshear ahead, brief and plan accordingly.
WWW
Whilst my analysis for the economic conditions ahead is very gloomy I've never said anywhere on this thread that people should abandon any thoughts of training, give up and desert their dreams. Never have a I said that.
We certainly have windshear ahead, brief and plan accordingly.
WWW
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Abbreviated summary.
1987. Start learning to fly in Australia part time. Industry is booming. Get talked into going commercial.
1988. Finish PPL. Start all the CPL exams.
1989. Start IR. The worst industrial disaster hit Australia. Known as the "pilots dispute". Only the international pilots were flying, aka Qantas. The domestic flying? Stopped.
1990-91. Recession hits Australia. It already had been around the world since 1989 or so. Get CPL (1991). Keep my full time job and wait.
1992. Do instructor rating part time.
1993. Got part time instructing job as well as keeping safe full time job. Do ATPLs part time. Economy is picking up.
1994. Leave job and home, head off to the Kimberley to get a job. Finally got a full time job flying a Cessna mid year.
1995. Head back to Sydney and finish ATPL theory. yay.
1996. Change jobs. Get twin hours. Shift to another part of the Kimberley.
1997. Joined PPRuNe.
1998. Crashed and burned first type rating. Fortunately networking worked and managed to land another job in Cairns. FO on turboprops.
2000. Shifted to Sydney for another (bigger) turboprop (FO) job. That didn't go well either.
early 2001. Shift to the UK. Airlines hiring. However, signs were there in the US, it wasn't going well. Doing ATPL JAA exams full time.
Had 5,100 hours with at least 1,000 hours on turboprops.
Sept 11, 2001.
2002. Decide to stay in the UK, with Ansett group collapsing in Australia, there was absolutely no chance getting a job.
Get ATPL (finally). Take any job I could. Night Ops assistant with "Streamline"
2003. Fly a Shorts 330/360 on night freight. That was the best I could get at the time.
Dec 2004. Finally get into NJE.
Economy finally accelerating.
2005. Naturally, after starting with NJE, get offers from other companies.
2007. Command. Sub Prime grumblings in the US get louder.
2008. Possible fleet change coming up.
Economy is appearing to slow down again. Make sure my seniority is safe.
1987. Start learning to fly in Australia part time. Industry is booming. Get talked into going commercial.
1988. Finish PPL. Start all the CPL exams.
1989. Start IR. The worst industrial disaster hit Australia. Known as the "pilots dispute". Only the international pilots were flying, aka Qantas. The domestic flying? Stopped.
1990-91. Recession hits Australia. It already had been around the world since 1989 or so. Get CPL (1991). Keep my full time job and wait.
1992. Do instructor rating part time.
1993. Got part time instructing job as well as keeping safe full time job. Do ATPLs part time. Economy is picking up.
1994. Leave job and home, head off to the Kimberley to get a job. Finally got a full time job flying a Cessna mid year.
1995. Head back to Sydney and finish ATPL theory. yay.
1996. Change jobs. Get twin hours. Shift to another part of the Kimberley.
1997. Joined PPRuNe.
1998. Crashed and burned first type rating. Fortunately networking worked and managed to land another job in Cairns. FO on turboprops.
2000. Shifted to Sydney for another (bigger) turboprop (FO) job. That didn't go well either.
early 2001. Shift to the UK. Airlines hiring. However, signs were there in the US, it wasn't going well. Doing ATPL JAA exams full time.
Had 5,100 hours with at least 1,000 hours on turboprops.
Sept 11, 2001.
2002. Decide to stay in the UK, with Ansett group collapsing in Australia, there was absolutely no chance getting a job.
Get ATPL (finally). Take any job I could. Night Ops assistant with "Streamline"
2003. Fly a Shorts 330/360 on night freight. That was the best I could get at the time.
Dec 2004. Finally get into NJE.
Economy finally accelerating.
2005. Naturally, after starting with NJE, get offers from other companies.
2007. Command. Sub Prime grumblings in the US get louder.
2008. Possible fleet change coming up.
Economy is appearing to slow down again. Make sure my seniority is safe.
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I've watched this thread for a while with interest and wonder why so many think one's approach to training has so much to do with the economy. Let me explain that a bit.
The logic seems to be that the economy is worsening, so there will be fewer jobs, so wannabes should wait until it is better to increase the chance that they'll get one. It's not bad reasoning, but there is a flaw in this logic when in a good job market. Even in a booming market if there is only a 10% chance that one won't get a job easily, the wise wannabe will develop a plan to get him through even if he's in that 10%.
I do think it's wise to try to time the market well and this is clearly a volatile and uncertain time. Here are the guidelines I would suggest should be used regardless of whether it's a boom or a bust economy:
1. Use as little debt as possible
2. Raise as much of the money needed upfront as humanly possible so you can focus on continuity of training to avoid fading skills. One sensible exception would be if you are modular and take a break before the IR and MCC to wait for an economic upturn.
3. Make sure you can meet all financial obligations and future contingencies (funding an SSTR or FI rating for example) based on what you are capable of earning today.
4. Contingency budget planning ideally should cover a) living expenses, b) loan repayments, c) rating renewals, d) 50 hours flying per year for currency and e) enough to make the payment on an additional loan for an SSTR.
If you can't fund an SSTR or you or unwilling to because of principles, then the other contingency items become even more important because your wait might be even longer.
It goes without saying that c and d are taken care of if you become an FI, but doing so adds the contingency requirement of funding the FI course. FIs are less likely in the early years to be able to afford a, b and e though, so the admonition of using less debt is more important if FI is your contingency plan from the outset.
The most obvious way to reduce the debt load is to reduce the total cost by going modular. There is a hidden saving here for those with an FI contingency. Modular fATPL training almost always ends the wannabe up with 250 hours or more. Integrated fATPL courses often end the wannabe up with about 220-230 hours, so they need to fund hour building to 250 hours before they can start an FI course.
There is a flaw in using an FI rating as a contingency in a bust economy though in that there might be plenty of recently redundant airline pilots beating a path to the FTOs to instruct, while those very FTOs experience a drop off in business.
In summary, investing in flight training is always risky and the risk management techniques to be used have very little to do with the state of the economy. The state of the economy should therefore primarily only inform when you start or if going modular, when you finish. Poor contingency planning in boom times probably accounts for at least half of the whinging posts on Pprune from unemployed shiny new fATPL holders.
The logic seems to be that the economy is worsening, so there will be fewer jobs, so wannabes should wait until it is better to increase the chance that they'll get one. It's not bad reasoning, but there is a flaw in this logic when in a good job market. Even in a booming market if there is only a 10% chance that one won't get a job easily, the wise wannabe will develop a plan to get him through even if he's in that 10%.
I do think it's wise to try to time the market well and this is clearly a volatile and uncertain time. Here are the guidelines I would suggest should be used regardless of whether it's a boom or a bust economy:
1. Use as little debt as possible
2. Raise as much of the money needed upfront as humanly possible so you can focus on continuity of training to avoid fading skills. One sensible exception would be if you are modular and take a break before the IR and MCC to wait for an economic upturn.
3. Make sure you can meet all financial obligations and future contingencies (funding an SSTR or FI rating for example) based on what you are capable of earning today.
4. Contingency budget planning ideally should cover a) living expenses, b) loan repayments, c) rating renewals, d) 50 hours flying per year for currency and e) enough to make the payment on an additional loan for an SSTR.
If you can't fund an SSTR or you or unwilling to because of principles, then the other contingency items become even more important because your wait might be even longer.
It goes without saying that c and d are taken care of if you become an FI, but doing so adds the contingency requirement of funding the FI course. FIs are less likely in the early years to be able to afford a, b and e though, so the admonition of using less debt is more important if FI is your contingency plan from the outset.
The most obvious way to reduce the debt load is to reduce the total cost by going modular. There is a hidden saving here for those with an FI contingency. Modular fATPL training almost always ends the wannabe up with 250 hours or more. Integrated fATPL courses often end the wannabe up with about 220-230 hours, so they need to fund hour building to 250 hours before they can start an FI course.
There is a flaw in using an FI rating as a contingency in a bust economy though in that there might be plenty of recently redundant airline pilots beating a path to the FTOs to instruct, while those very FTOs experience a drop off in business.
In summary, investing in flight training is always risky and the risk management techniques to be used have very little to do with the state of the economy. The state of the economy should therefore primarily only inform when you start or if going modular, when you finish. Poor contingency planning in boom times probably accounts for at least half of the whinging posts on Pprune from unemployed shiny new fATPL holders.
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As one of the wannbies from that time I can remember the debates going on.
In fact alot off the vocal ones for mod in them days are to my knowledge all sitting in the LHS earning 40k plus on turboprops or LHS on regional jets or the likes of Luke have moved on from LHS to RHS wide bodies. With 2+ type ratings under their belts.
In fact quiet few of the posters from that time are line training captains and one is a TRE that I know about.
I say that but one of them can still be found in MAN working as a dispatcher. His big break was scuppered by another ppruner who he called a cock and got into a willy waving competion with. He proberly doesn't even know his CV was binned.
In my experence WWW does talk sense about this stuff. There have been alot of wannabies who have appeared some with professional qualifications in finance, told him that he is talking pish and have quite well written justifications why he is talking pish. But you see aviation is a law until its self some might call it insider dealing but you can't have a clue whats going on until you have lived with it for a bit and realised how things work.
Why WWW hasn't got fed up giving his opinion I don't know. Every 6 months a new batch of wannabies turn up who think they know better because some marketing deptment have sold them hook line and sinker. And the trend for everyone to dismiss the other forms of aviation apart from line flying a Jet is causing major problems in the industry. There are alot of jobs out there that are just not suited to the Oxford/Cabair product. Employers won't touch them with a barge pole. I fact in the last 3 years I havn't flown with a single Intergrated trained pilot to my knowledge.
Just to note intergrated pilots don't need the 200 hours to start the fi course and they graduate with as little as 170 hours. In a broad sweeping statement they generally don't make very good FI's as they don't know the system and there heart isn't in it; also they are used to being bottle fed all the time with very little PIC real unsupervised time. This is a broad statement which can be proved untrue by some exceptionally good Instructors who did go through the intergrated system but they are the exceptions. In fact they are the sort of people who would have floated to the top however they did thier training.
In fact alot off the vocal ones for mod in them days are to my knowledge all sitting in the LHS earning 40k plus on turboprops or LHS on regional jets or the likes of Luke have moved on from LHS to RHS wide bodies. With 2+ type ratings under their belts.
In fact quiet few of the posters from that time are line training captains and one is a TRE that I know about.
I say that but one of them can still be found in MAN working as a dispatcher. His big break was scuppered by another ppruner who he called a cock and got into a willy waving competion with. He proberly doesn't even know his CV was binned.
In my experence WWW does talk sense about this stuff. There have been alot of wannabies who have appeared some with professional qualifications in finance, told him that he is talking pish and have quite well written justifications why he is talking pish. But you see aviation is a law until its self some might call it insider dealing but you can't have a clue whats going on until you have lived with it for a bit and realised how things work.
Why WWW hasn't got fed up giving his opinion I don't know. Every 6 months a new batch of wannabies turn up who think they know better because some marketing deptment have sold them hook line and sinker. And the trend for everyone to dismiss the other forms of aviation apart from line flying a Jet is causing major problems in the industry. There are alot of jobs out there that are just not suited to the Oxford/Cabair product. Employers won't touch them with a barge pole. I fact in the last 3 years I havn't flown with a single Intergrated trained pilot to my knowledge.
Just to note intergrated pilots don't need the 200 hours to start the fi course and they graduate with as little as 170 hours. In a broad sweeping statement they generally don't make very good FI's as they don't know the system and there heart isn't in it; also they are used to being bottle fed all the time with very little PIC real unsupervised time. This is a broad statement which can be proved untrue by some exceptionally good Instructors who did go through the intergrated system but they are the exceptions. In fact they are the sort of people who would have floated to the top however they did thier training.
Last edited by mad_jock; 16th Apr 2008 at 22:26.
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...and Euro at 1.6 bucks.
Didn't Qantas start Jetstar in 2003 while you were flying the ugliest aircraft in the history of aviation (including the age of the Ornithopters).
Wouldn't that been a better solution?
Didn't Qantas start Jetstar in 2003 while you were flying the ugliest aircraft in the history of aviation (including the age of the Ornithopters).
Wouldn't that been a better solution?
Last edited by nich-av; 16th Apr 2008 at 23:56.
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On a wing and a prayer
Published: April 17 2008 14:38 | Last updated: April 17 2008 18:06
When you have tried pulling every lever to hand but your plane is still losing altitude, the only thing left to do is bail out. This should have been a banner week for airline stocks. Delta and Northwest finally agreed to merge. That paves the way for further consolidation.
Investors, many of whom have called for any sort of corporate action to catalyse a rally, are unmoved – the sector is down 4 per cent this week. It is telling that, having touted $1bn of annual synergies, Northwest and Delta have since seen their combined market value decline by roughly the same amount. The need to keep politicians and labour onside means airlines must focus on revenue synergies, rather than cost savings. Top line gains might well transpire, but they are far off and run a high risk of being competed away.
With mergers no longer looking like a silver bullet, the fundamental problems facing the sector loom larger. As quarterly results from AMR – American Airlines’ parent – Continental, and Southwest show, this industry is selling its product too cheaply to offset high fuel prices. Only Southwest managed to turn a profit, mainly because of smart hedges on fuel costs.
Unit revenues for the major airlines are growing at mid-single digits in percentage terms. But they need growth rates at double that level to offset the high cost of fuel, according to CreditSights. With seats already very full – and regulators capping flights at busy airports such as JFK – that means raising prices. The airlines are doing this, but cautiously. Charging more in what could be an economic downturn is a bold experiment. Demand has remained robust so far, but then passengers’ appetite typically cracks only after a couple of recessionary quarters have passed.
Unlike the downturn after 2001, the industry has a bigger cash cushion. In an ideal world, that would be used to address other needs, such as upgrading tired fleets. Instead, the airlines will use it to hunker down and survive a rough ride – not exactly the most enticing of investment propositions.
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2008
Published: April 17 2008 14:38 | Last updated: April 17 2008 18:06
When you have tried pulling every lever to hand but your plane is still losing altitude, the only thing left to do is bail out. This should have been a banner week for airline stocks. Delta and Northwest finally agreed to merge. That paves the way for further consolidation.
Investors, many of whom have called for any sort of corporate action to catalyse a rally, are unmoved – the sector is down 4 per cent this week. It is telling that, having touted $1bn of annual synergies, Northwest and Delta have since seen their combined market value decline by roughly the same amount. The need to keep politicians and labour onside means airlines must focus on revenue synergies, rather than cost savings. Top line gains might well transpire, but they are far off and run a high risk of being competed away.
With mergers no longer looking like a silver bullet, the fundamental problems facing the sector loom larger. As quarterly results from AMR – American Airlines’ parent – Continental, and Southwest show, this industry is selling its product too cheaply to offset high fuel prices. Only Southwest managed to turn a profit, mainly because of smart hedges on fuel costs.
Unit revenues for the major airlines are growing at mid-single digits in percentage terms. But they need growth rates at double that level to offset the high cost of fuel, according to CreditSights. With seats already very full – and regulators capping flights at busy airports such as JFK – that means raising prices. The airlines are doing this, but cautiously. Charging more in what could be an economic downturn is a bold experiment. Demand has remained robust so far, but then passengers’ appetite typically cracks only after a couple of recessionary quarters have passed.
Unlike the downturn after 2001, the industry has a bigger cash cushion. In an ideal world, that would be used to address other needs, such as upgrading tired fleets. Instead, the airlines will use it to hunker down and survive a rough ride – not exactly the most enticing of investment propositions.
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2008
PPRuNe Handmaiden
N.A, A better solution? To what? I'd already left Australia and had converted my license. To then return to Australia and buy a type rating wasn't a solution. Esp since I had no money left and wasn't going into debt for a job.
I now earn a lot more money than the Jetstar pilots.
QF had already experimented with Australia Airlines operating 767s to Japan etc. This hasn't worked as well as they wanted. Jetstar Asia isn't a roaring success either. Jetstar (Aus) isn't working as well as they (QF) wanted on the Japanese routes as the Japanese don't want to use a loco to Australia. They perceive locos to be inferior. I can assure you that if I booked a ticket thinking it was going to be operated by QF and it was operated by Jetstar I would not be impressed one bit.
Either way, what Qantas does is their own business. However, they do seem to be intent on driving Qantaslink to the wall by refusing to acknowledge that their pilots want a better life. Their (QFs) opposition has responded by offering the QFlink crews the lifestyle and remuneration they want and deserve for the work being done.
I now earn a lot more money than the Jetstar pilots.
QF had already experimented with Australia Airlines operating 767s to Japan etc. This hasn't worked as well as they wanted. Jetstar Asia isn't a roaring success either. Jetstar (Aus) isn't working as well as they (QF) wanted on the Japanese routes as the Japanese don't want to use a loco to Australia. They perceive locos to be inferior. I can assure you that if I booked a ticket thinking it was going to be operated by QF and it was operated by Jetstar I would not be impressed one bit.
Either way, what Qantas does is their own business. However, they do seem to be intent on driving Qantaslink to the wall by refusing to acknowledge that their pilots want a better life. Their (QFs) opposition has responded by offering the QFlink crews the lifestyle and remuneration they want and deserve for the work being done.
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Oil prices now $115 a barrel, watch this space guys..............
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...c&refer=energy
"There is only 85 million barrels of oil globally in the market coming a day and I don't think you can increase that 85 million,'' Pickens said.
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This maybe of interest.
NYTimes.com: For Pilots, Dreams Run Into Reality.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/10/bu...a1&oref=slogin
Since 911 the airline industry in America has been in a fighting retreat which now, because of an economy built on debt and unforeseen oil prices, has turned into an all-out rout.
It's one thing to sacrifice and struggle for a few years to attain employment with a major carrier, something else however to sacrifice but never see light at the end of the tunnel. I don't recall there being less opportunity for a viable aviation career than at present.
NYTimes.com: For Pilots, Dreams Run Into Reality.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/10/bu...a1&oref=slogin
Since 911 the airline industry in America has been in a fighting retreat which now, because of an economy built on debt and unforeseen oil prices, has turned into an all-out rout.
It's one thing to sacrifice and struggle for a few years to attain employment with a major carrier, something else however to sacrifice but never see light at the end of the tunnel. I don't recall there being less opportunity for a viable aviation career than at present.
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Always wanted to be a pilot. Check
32 years old. Check
Has a son. Check
Been saving from his military salary for the last year. Check
Will probably take him 10 years to get back to the same salary. Check
Wife thinks he's nuts. Check
Navy Lieutenant. Check
Christ. The above article is a little bit too close for comfort!! Thank goodness I am only on a career break to try and make the dream a reality!!
Anyway back to the revision, consolidation course starts next week and I just did an Air Law mock. Creamed 68%. Bolloc%s. Hmmmm maybe I should re-train as a plumber and buy a Pitts with the money I've saved.....
32 years old. Check
Has a son. Check
Been saving from his military salary for the last year. Check
Will probably take him 10 years to get back to the same salary. Check
Wife thinks he's nuts. Check
Navy Lieutenant. Check
Christ. The above article is a little bit too close for comfort!! Thank goodness I am only on a career break to try and make the dream a reality!!
Anyway back to the revision, consolidation course starts next week and I just did an Air Law mock. Creamed 68%. Bolloc%s. Hmmmm maybe I should re-train as a plumber and buy a Pitts with the money I've saved.....
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I'd like to bring some political background to this story because it is to me the sole essence of the actual recession with people high in the food chain using the media to fuel rumours... which, I say again is all this recession is really about.
Don't worry people, the democrats are winning end of the year and the war will be over... 1100 billion bucks went literally "lost" in Defense last year, and the feds are blaiming outdated computer systems for vanished money...
The people presiding now are stacking as much money as they can buying stocks at bottom prices, etc. using this money.
Just read about the JFKs and 9/11 conspiracy and you'll know what I'm talking about.
and this article: http://nl.m24.be/nieuws/buitenland/P...46368-1621.art
It's in Dutch but since CNN is very unlikely to be allowed to post such articles by Washington,...
So what's 1100 billion worth?
4000 A380's or 30000 A320's at list price? I'm sure Airbus will give you a quantity discount for such an order... or you could buy EADS altogether and use the spare change to buy all the airlines in the world.
Half of the US taxpayer's money goes to Defense funding.
Let's all together hope for a better future in the economy and in the politics that drives it.
Don't worry people, the democrats are winning end of the year and the war will be over... 1100 billion bucks went literally "lost" in Defense last year, and the feds are blaiming outdated computer systems for vanished money...
The people presiding now are stacking as much money as they can buying stocks at bottom prices, etc. using this money.
Just read about the JFKs and 9/11 conspiracy and you'll know what I'm talking about.
and this article: http://nl.m24.be/nieuws/buitenland/P...46368-1621.art
It's in Dutch but since CNN is very unlikely to be allowed to post such articles by Washington,...
So what's 1100 billion worth?
4000 A380's or 30000 A320's at list price? I'm sure Airbus will give you a quantity discount for such an order... or you could buy EADS altogether and use the spare change to buy all the airlines in the world.
Half of the US taxpayer's money goes to Defense funding.
Let's all together hope for a better future in the economy and in the politics that drives it.
Last edited by nich-av; 19th Apr 2008 at 13:53.
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Nich-av,
It seems you may be onto something there. Maybe some of us can use the info you have provided to make a killing in the markets. I'd love to buy a NetJets share; I'm sick of waiting in BAA's long security queues. There are probably many other readers who would love to fund their flight training with a few hot tips. Where could I put £100K to quickly turn it into £200K? If I can turn it over a few times in quick succession, I should have enough for a Citation Bravo share in a year or so and the guys in Ferrovial can kiss my rosy red goodbye one last time.
It seems you may be onto something there. Maybe some of us can use the info you have provided to make a killing in the markets. I'd love to buy a NetJets share; I'm sick of waiting in BAA's long security queues. There are probably many other readers who would love to fund their flight training with a few hot tips. Where could I put £100K to quickly turn it into £200K? If I can turn it over a few times in quick succession, I should have enough for a Citation Bravo share in a year or so and the guys in Ferrovial can kiss my rosy red goodbye one last time.
Last edited by Adios; 19th Apr 2008 at 20:55.
Nich - Av, if you want to gain some insight into the world and its present economic issues might I suggest avoiding the more conspiracy based areas of the Net and instead try googling Money As Debt. Within an hour you will probably have passed beyond the looking glass and gone far down the rabbit hole...
ALL we are really talking about in relation to UK and EU and US airlines is a slowing down of consumer spending.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...&feed=business
Its as mainstream as being in the guardian:
UK consumers face 'rapid and painful' downturn
This is going to be a rapid, painful adjustment and it will be a rough ride for a substantial proportion of the population. We are facing a massive sea change in the balance of the economy,' he said.
You look at the airline business. You see its wafer thing margins. You note it rapid decade of expansion.
You plan accordingly.
WWW
ALL we are really talking about in relation to UK and EU and US airlines is a slowing down of consumer spending.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...&feed=business
Its as mainstream as being in the guardian:
UK consumers face 'rapid and painful' downturn
This is going to be a rapid, painful adjustment and it will be a rough ride for a substantial proportion of the population. We are facing a massive sea change in the balance of the economy,' he said.
You look at the airline business. You see its wafer thing margins. You note it rapid decade of expansion.
You plan accordingly.
WWW
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Interesting thread on "terms and endearment" saying Thomsonfly binning 10 aircraft for this season which could be well over 100 trained and experienced crew back on the market.... also EOS scrabbling around to find another £50mn to avoid a "run on the airline" as passengers book elsewhere as they lose confidence that the group will be around in a few months time.
I find the concept of the US bailing us out an interesting one given the US is arguably already in recession and running a huge deficit.. .I would have thought there was a bigger risk of US politics becoming more protectionist given the issues the US economy (and airlines have at the moment).
As for closer to home RBS looking to raise £10bn to plug a hole in its balance sheet. Banks are still struggling to lend... .folks the evidence is building that a low cost, low risk approach to flight training has to be the way forward.
I am also curious by this idea that "private jets" are the way forward and will create thousands of pilot jobs.... if people can't afford to fly with BA they are hardly going to be hiring private jets? And with the credit crunch ongoing I imagine banks willingness to lend against such assets must be somewhat diminished as would companies willingness to buy them..... or am I missing something?
I find the concept of the US bailing us out an interesting one given the US is arguably already in recession and running a huge deficit.. .I would have thought there was a bigger risk of US politics becoming more protectionist given the issues the US economy (and airlines have at the moment).
As for closer to home RBS looking to raise £10bn to plug a hole in its balance sheet. Banks are still struggling to lend... .folks the evidence is building that a low cost, low risk approach to flight training has to be the way forward.
I am also curious by this idea that "private jets" are the way forward and will create thousands of pilot jobs.... if people can't afford to fly with BA they are hardly going to be hiring private jets? And with the credit crunch ongoing I imagine banks willingness to lend against such assets must be somewhat diminished as would companies willingness to buy them..... or am I missing something?
PPRuNe Handmaiden
GSB,
Most of our owners aren't affected by this little glitch.... Also, if you owned a jet, you could sell it and buy a share or card. Once you've done flying in your own aircraft, you're very reluctant to go back to the airlines.
Also, Europeans are viewing the bizjet not as a luxury item, but as an important business tool. 2 hours versus 10 min to get on your aircraft. Your meeting runs late, now instead of stopping the meeting OR flying home the next day, you make a call and your aircraft waits for you.
Will the bizjet market create thousands of jobs? No idea. Will it continue to grow. Yes, maybe a bit slower than in the last couple of years but it's still expanding.
Most of our owners aren't affected by this little glitch.... Also, if you owned a jet, you could sell it and buy a share or card. Once you've done flying in your own aircraft, you're very reluctant to go back to the airlines.
Also, Europeans are viewing the bizjet not as a luxury item, but as an important business tool. 2 hours versus 10 min to get on your aircraft. Your meeting runs late, now instead of stopping the meeting OR flying home the next day, you make a call and your aircraft waits for you.
Will the bizjet market create thousands of jobs? No idea. Will it continue to grow. Yes, maybe a bit slower than in the last couple of years but it's still expanding.
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The Desert but shortly to be HK!)
Age: 49
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Thanks Redsnail
Just our of interest how many of your "customers" would you guess are involved/make their money in the world of finance (e.g. banks, hedge funds, insurance companies etc etc)?
Just our of interest how many of your "customers" would you guess are involved/make their money in the world of finance (e.g. banks, hedge funds, insurance companies etc etc)?
