View Poll Results: Type rating?
Bought Type rating - got the job
4
66.67%
Bought Type rating - told "need time on type"
1
16.67%
You were told buy the type and get the job - but did not get a job offer anyway
1
16.67%
Voters: 6. This poll is closed
Type Rating - which type, where, why pay etc?
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Haven't had a chance to read through this in its entirety, only been reading snippets, but thanks very much for the effort. Gives a useful picture of what to expect on a TR.
Oh, and Congratulations too!
Oh, and Congratulations too!
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Scroggs,
Would you please elaborate on what you see as the difference between...
and.....
When some european schemes are offering 300 hours line training (advertised recently with no job offer) and some others, from what other SSTR buyers on this website have said, even more, what is the difference that you talk about and how are they not immoral? You are still taking someone who should be paid, out of a job because that line training is being conducted in a passenger or cargo carrying operation. Its not a bunch of people who buy a TR and then do some cost sharing to build their hours!!!!
OSOP
Would you please elaborate on what you see as the difference between...
(largely US) 'co-pilot' programmes that expect you to pay to fly well beyond the normal type- and line-training period.
Line-training schemes, on the other hand, are not.....they are in no way immoral or unjustifiable.
OSOP
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Yes, of course, I'll be happy to explain the difference.
If you wish to undergo a course of training that gives you a useable qualification, you are entitled to take your trade to whoever offers such training. In the airline world, a type rating on its own is only half a qualification. If you want to offer yourself as qualified on an airliner type, you need the line training that effectively ratifies the type rating. In most shorthaul airlines, line training is around 40-50 sectors, or roughly 100 hours. At the end of that time you are awarded an 'area and airfield' ratification, which allows you to operate to anywhere in that airline's network. At that point, you should be considered to be a competent, though probationary, operator of that type. That is the limit of training in or for an airline, and should be the limit of training offered or contracted for commercially. This line training is always conducted on revenue sectors; the costs otherwise would be prohibitive for airline and trainee. Whether such a course is a worthwhile investment is for you to judge, but the existence of such courses is more or less justifiable - though a sad comment on the way things have changed over the last 30 years.
Any 'line training' or 'co-pilot' schemes that offer more than this 100-hour period are effectively using students to subsidise their costs, as there is no official line training course that requires any more than the hours I've mentioned. 300 or 500 hour 'courses' are simply exploiting your insecurities to get a free (or, rather, paying) first officer. That is immoral, and should be prohibited.
Please do not get the idea that I am defending the system that makes self-funded type and line training tempting for ab-initio pilots; I would far rather airlines paid these costs. However, I entirely understand the financial pressures that have brought this about. Also, for the experienced pilot (such as myself), type and line training deals can be a very cost-effective way of getting a job we are not currently qualified for. That is the nature of speculative training - you do it to make yourself more employable. It would be no different if I decided that I now wished to be a teacher or a lawyer; I would have to pay the entire training costs myself - but I would not be expected to pay to practise either once fully qualified!
Scroggs
If you wish to undergo a course of training that gives you a useable qualification, you are entitled to take your trade to whoever offers such training. In the airline world, a type rating on its own is only half a qualification. If you want to offer yourself as qualified on an airliner type, you need the line training that effectively ratifies the type rating. In most shorthaul airlines, line training is around 40-50 sectors, or roughly 100 hours. At the end of that time you are awarded an 'area and airfield' ratification, which allows you to operate to anywhere in that airline's network. At that point, you should be considered to be a competent, though probationary, operator of that type. That is the limit of training in or for an airline, and should be the limit of training offered or contracted for commercially. This line training is always conducted on revenue sectors; the costs otherwise would be prohibitive for airline and trainee. Whether such a course is a worthwhile investment is for you to judge, but the existence of such courses is more or less justifiable - though a sad comment on the way things have changed over the last 30 years.
Any 'line training' or 'co-pilot' schemes that offer more than this 100-hour period are effectively using students to subsidise their costs, as there is no official line training course that requires any more than the hours I've mentioned. 300 or 500 hour 'courses' are simply exploiting your insecurities to get a free (or, rather, paying) first officer. That is immoral, and should be prohibited.
Please do not get the idea that I am defending the system that makes self-funded type and line training tempting for ab-initio pilots; I would far rather airlines paid these costs. However, I entirely understand the financial pressures that have brought this about. Also, for the experienced pilot (such as myself), type and line training deals can be a very cost-effective way of getting a job we are not currently qualified for. That is the nature of speculative training - you do it to make yourself more employable. It would be no different if I decided that I now wished to be a teacher or a lawyer; I would have to pay the entire training costs myself - but I would not be expected to pay to practise either once fully qualified!
Scroggs
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Scroggs,
I still find the first part of this sentence a little hard to swallow but totally agree with the second part. While I accept what people say about speculative training (in any industry), I still think having to outlay in the region of £80k- £100K for training for any job is rediculous but I have said that all before!
Thanks for clarifying your previous post.
OSOP.
but the existence of such courses is more or less justifiable - though a sad comment on the way things have changed over the last 30 years.
Thanks for clarifying your previous post.
OSOP.
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With the new Multi Crew Licence approaching it seems as though sponsorships will slowly return. This is the only way that we will se a diminish in SSTRs. Lets prey it offers help to future pilots
Its not as easy a 'stop paying and the system will change' because there are many rich rich pilots out there who have Mum's and Dads who can afford type ratings no problem - just a year in a public school. Its your idea of what expensive and what's not. The supply will always be there! Sorry Zooflyer but I like your enthusiasm!
I myself am having problems funding, but I have slowly found the money for each module. I am interested in researching all avenues and keep checking every day, preying for the day I seeing the word sponsorship in bold and hopfully BA before. My first brochure about flight training that I saw was the BA spnorship scheme and I was gutted when this closed!
I prey in the case of flight training 'we get what we pay for'!
good luck.
Its not as easy a 'stop paying and the system will change' because there are many rich rich pilots out there who have Mum's and Dads who can afford type ratings no problem - just a year in a public school. Its your idea of what expensive and what's not. The supply will always be there! Sorry Zooflyer but I like your enthusiasm!
I myself am having problems funding, but I have slowly found the money for each module. I am interested in researching all avenues and keep checking every day, preying for the day I seeing the word sponsorship in bold and hopfully BA before. My first brochure about flight training that I saw was the BA spnorship scheme and I was gutted when this closed!
I prey in the case of flight training 'we get what we pay for'!
good luck.
Join Date: Dec 1997
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There is no chance that Zooloflyer or anyone else will persuade sufficient numbers of wannabes not to pay for SSTRs to make a significant difference to the market. It just flies in the face of human nature! Wherever you leave an opportunity, someone will take it - you are in competition for these jobs, and wherever an advantage is to be gained someone will exploit that opportunity. The demand for SSTRs is very large, that's why there are so many operators offering courses. This is not going to go away! The only thing that will change it is a shortage of inexperienced pilots, and that's not going to happen either.
The MCL does not presage a return to sponsorships. It may be more expensive than the current system (which it will run alongside), but that cost will be passed on to the candidate in some form. It is likely that more schemes will copy the CTC model to achieve this.
Scroggs
The MCL does not presage a return to sponsorships. It may be more expensive than the current system (which it will run alongside), but that cost will be passed on to the candidate in some form. It is likely that more schemes will copy the CTC model to achieve this.
Scroggs
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After flight training 6YRS ago I decided to go down the instructor route which I really enjoyed even though at times I didn't earn enough money to live. We all got jobs on turbo props within a year. And the market was not as good as it is at the moment.
The FACT!!! is that myself and ALL my fellow instructors are now flying jets for various airlines. I know a couple of guys who paid for type ratings to try and jump the que and are still looking after many years, I think in some cases the rating has expired (5Yrs).
I suggest that you do an instructor course learn the basics,enjoy your flying and it WILL work out for you. I get really piXXed off with guys who come out of training and all they want to do is fly jets, aviation has more to offer than a big shinny jet, the sad thing is you will only realise it when you fly one.
Good Luck!
The FACT!!! is that myself and ALL my fellow instructors are now flying jets for various airlines. I know a couple of guys who paid for type ratings to try and jump the que and are still looking after many years, I think in some cases the rating has expired (5Yrs).
I suggest that you do an instructor course learn the basics,enjoy your flying and it WILL work out for you. I get really piXXed off with guys who come out of training and all they want to do is fly jets, aviation has more to offer than a big shinny jet, the sad thing is you will only realise it when you fly one.
Good Luck!
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3Reds,
Firstly, you are the first 101 year old airline pilot that I have come across that holds a class 1 medical.
Interesting post, and I must admit I couldnt not agree with you more on certain aspects of your post. I currently instruct, and have been quite suprised on the amount of airline pilots that have approached me, while I have been working, to find out how they can get back into GA, and what they have to do to teach on light aircraft. The general trend appears to be, they want to get a bit more 'hands on flying', and give something back to the training industry.
With regard to people not wanting get invloved with other aspects of aviation and only wanting to fly jets (after their CPL/IR), well I guess it depends on their motivation. Through my time instructing, which is now approaching a year, I have met all different types of people, and I find it quite interesting listening to people talk about what they want to achieve. I must admit I used to find it quite irritating, when people used to dismiss flying light aircraft, and who really, seemed to have no interest in aviation generally. However, I guess that is life
.
After reading the majority of these posts, and many others, when this subject gets brought up, I would be interested to know what the general statistics are in people being employed after their TR. Like others here, I made a decision to instruct after finishing my training, however, a number of guys I know when down the TR road, to which all now are employed by various airlines.
Anyway I will continue to enjoy my spam can SupaPilot, beats sitting at a desk, even though I am constantly skint
.
All the best.
Firstly, you are the first 101 year old airline pilot that I have come across that holds a class 1 medical.
Interesting post, and I must admit I couldnt not agree with you more on certain aspects of your post. I currently instruct, and have been quite suprised on the amount of airline pilots that have approached me, while I have been working, to find out how they can get back into GA, and what they have to do to teach on light aircraft. The general trend appears to be, they want to get a bit more 'hands on flying', and give something back to the training industry.
With regard to people not wanting get invloved with other aspects of aviation and only wanting to fly jets (after their CPL/IR), well I guess it depends on their motivation. Through my time instructing, which is now approaching a year, I have met all different types of people, and I find it quite interesting listening to people talk about what they want to achieve. I must admit I used to find it quite irritating, when people used to dismiss flying light aircraft, and who really, seemed to have no interest in aviation generally. However, I guess that is life
.After reading the majority of these posts, and many others, when this subject gets brought up, I would be interested to know what the general statistics are in people being employed after their TR. Like others here, I made a decision to instruct after finishing my training, however, a number of guys I know when down the TR road, to which all now are employed by various airlines.
Anyway I will continue to enjoy my spam can SupaPilot, beats sitting at a desk, even though I am constantly skint
.All the best.
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I actually think that the authorities should make it mandatory for new pilots to:
Firstly:
Instruct (lets say 500hrs)
Secondly:
Fly a Turbo Prop (lets say 1000hrs)
And only when ALL steps above have been completed are you than able to apply/complete a jet rating!
I think a system such as this would benefit both pilots and airlines.
It would make a better pilot.
It would make the conversion to jet easier.
It would reduce airline training costs.
It would rid this mine field of what should I do next.
Plus many more!
And above all it would create a level playing field unlike the situation at the moment when all that matters is who has the richest daddy!
Good Luck to ALL.
Firstly:
Instruct (lets say 500hrs)
Secondly:
Fly a Turbo Prop (lets say 1000hrs)
And only when ALL steps above have been completed are you than able to apply/complete a jet rating!
I think a system such as this would benefit both pilots and airlines.
It would make a better pilot.
It would make the conversion to jet easier.
It would reduce airline training costs.
It would rid this mine field of what should I do next.
Plus many more!
And above all it would create a level playing field unlike the situation at the moment when all that matters is who has the richest daddy!
Good Luck to ALL.
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Here's something for the rich kiddies - dutch bus jet company asking only 40.000€ for a Citation rating - is this ex tax??
and next they wonder why they are so short of pilots...
and next they wonder why they are so short of pilots...
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have you noticed? t/r are more and nore expensive.
it means less students paying=more companies paying(bonding or job promess...)
do not pay without a job guaranty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
trto sell now guns and bullets for your suicide...
it means less students paying=more companies paying(bonding or job promess...)
do not pay without a job guaranty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
trto sell now guns and bullets for your suicide...
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3REDS
I agree with some of your post. A period of mandatory light a/c instruction and a period on turbo-props as you did may well present a better prepared pilot to their first jet, certainly in terms of airmanship. Having gone onto a jet with few hours and no prior experience of public transport ops I very quickly became aware of the weaknesses of a low houred pilot in that role. You cannot substitute hours and experience no matter how much your training cost or how you went about funding it.
However, as I went onto a jet with 200 and something hours, using the rest of your logic I must have rich parents.Fact is I paid for all my training via a loan and am paying it all back without parental support. I don't have a dad, and believe me my mother is not rich. I understand your frustration that there are indeed some fortunate people out there who can afford to throw endless thousands away on thier training and not have to worry about the consequenses of failure. It isn't fair on the guys who risk everything to get that elusive first job. But there are those of us who take on a large loan and are lucky but not necessarily rich! We seem to get caught up into the generalisation that low houred people flying jets are rich kids.
This debate will never end, it is just another form of the hamster wheel on jet blast. If you want to pay for a TR off your own back without an airline expressing any interest then I think you are mad, but who am I to judge others - as was said before it's your money, or at least it will be yours to pay back.
Good luck to those in the hunt,especially you A320
I agree with some of your post. A period of mandatory light a/c instruction and a period on turbo-props as you did may well present a better prepared pilot to their first jet, certainly in terms of airmanship. Having gone onto a jet with few hours and no prior experience of public transport ops I very quickly became aware of the weaknesses of a low houred pilot in that role. You cannot substitute hours and experience no matter how much your training cost or how you went about funding it.
However, as I went onto a jet with 200 and something hours, using the rest of your logic I must have rich parents.Fact is I paid for all my training via a loan and am paying it all back without parental support. I don't have a dad, and believe me my mother is not rich. I understand your frustration that there are indeed some fortunate people out there who can afford to throw endless thousands away on thier training and not have to worry about the consequenses of failure. It isn't fair on the guys who risk everything to get that elusive first job. But there are those of us who take on a large loan and are lucky but not necessarily rich! We seem to get caught up into the generalisation that low houred people flying jets are rich kids.
This debate will never end, it is just another form of the hamster wheel on jet blast. If you want to pay for a TR off your own back without an airline expressing any interest then I think you are mad, but who am I to judge others - as was said before it's your money, or at least it will be yours to pay back.
Good luck to those in the hunt,especially you A320
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Type Rating?
Hello,
ive read through various threads on this subject but as you are no doubt aware the opinions vary wildly!
I have pretty much chosen a school and made the financial arrangments to do the JAA frozen ATPL, however i am concerned about my employability when i have completed this course, at this point i anticipate that i will have around 250 hours. Not a great amount admittedly!
Would it be worth my while to pay out extra to get type rated? and if so, on which aircraft? Please note that i am by no means made of money, so such a venture would have to be worth it.
Any comments are greatly recieved.
thanks
ive read through various threads on this subject but as you are no doubt aware the opinions vary wildly!
I have pretty much chosen a school and made the financial arrangments to do the JAA frozen ATPL, however i am concerned about my employability when i have completed this course, at this point i anticipate that i will have around 250 hours. Not a great amount admittedly!
Would it be worth my while to pay out extra to get type rated? and if so, on which aircraft? Please note that i am by no means made of money, so such a venture would have to be worth it.
Any comments are greatly recieved.
thanks
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How to get type rated.
Hey!
Well, the question is rather obvious I guess - How can I get type rated?
I have spoken to numerous pilots about this, and I still don't quite understand the concept. I mean, if I was trained in a twin engined light aircraft to get my CPL, then when I get enough hours I want to make the transition to an airliner - How do I do this independantly? I know how it can be done if you are on a sponsorship scheme with an airline.
Also, if I was type rated to fly a Boeing 737 with Easyjet, and I was offered a contract with say, Iberia to fly MD80s - How would I get the type rating??
Hope I've made myself clear enough
Well, the question is rather obvious I guess - How can I get type rated?
I have spoken to numerous pilots about this, and I still don't quite understand the concept. I mean, if I was trained in a twin engined light aircraft to get my CPL, then when I get enough hours I want to make the transition to an airliner - How do I do this independantly? I know how it can be done if you are on a sponsorship scheme with an airline.
Also, if I was type rated to fly a Boeing 737 with Easyjet, and I was offered a contract with say, Iberia to fly MD80s - How would I get the type rating??
Hope I've made myself clear enough
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Why would you want to do a type rating independently???
The majority of airlines still (thankfully) train their pilots on their specific types to their specific requirements and SOP's. Some airlines, like easyjet and Ryanair, make you fund most or all of the cost yourself, but you are still getting the type rating under their umbrella, and assuming you pass the course you get employed with them.
Some people do go and get their own type ratings independently, but this is a dangerous road to go down and frought with difficulties. Just do a search and see how many people on this site have paid for a type rating and are now having to look around for line training opportunities because no-one will employ them.
First you get your 'frozen' ATPL, then you get a job, then your company sorts out your type rating. Or at least that's the way it should be! (Of course if you're a sponsored cadet you get the job before getting your frozen ATPL).
If you are 737-rated with easyjet and want to move to Iberia, which is the difficult part in itself, you will absolutely not have to first get your own type rating on an MD-80!!!
Unless there have been some radical changes which I am not aware of, Iberia will sort it out for you!
The majority of airlines still (thankfully) train their pilots on their specific types to their specific requirements and SOP's. Some airlines, like easyjet and Ryanair, make you fund most or all of the cost yourself, but you are still getting the type rating under their umbrella, and assuming you pass the course you get employed with them.
Some people do go and get their own type ratings independently, but this is a dangerous road to go down and frought with difficulties. Just do a search and see how many people on this site have paid for a type rating and are now having to look around for line training opportunities because no-one will employ them.
First you get your 'frozen' ATPL, then you get a job, then your company sorts out your type rating. Or at least that's the way it should be! (Of course if you're a sponsored cadet you get the job before getting your frozen ATPL).
If you are 737-rated with easyjet and want to move to Iberia, which is the difficult part in itself, you will absolutely not have to first get your own type rating on an MD-80!!!
Unless there have been some radical changes which I am not aware of, Iberia will sort it out for you!
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this is correct, the best way to be type rated, is to go trough a TRTO having contact with airlines.
after being selected, they will train you at the airline standards(airports, routes, SID&STAR), and you will start flying right after your simulator.
Do not "sponsore" yourself if no job guaranty.
after being selected, they will train you at the airline standards(airports, routes, SID&STAR), and you will start flying right after your simulator.
Do not "sponsore" yourself if no job guaranty.