A big warning to wannabes
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A big warning to wannabes
I did a JAR ATPL some years ago, it was one of the worst decision i ever made
IT costs you 50k or more, takes 2-3 years at best.
I found the JAR theory no so easy and sometimes boring.
At the end you get 100s of rejection letters by airlines. When you get to know people inside the industry, you meet lots of experienced jet pilots on the dole (sometimes bitter for obvious reasons), struggling instructors ...
Would i do it again : NO WAY !!
I would even prefer playing the lottery : at least you have a chance to win something.
Then some guys talk fo getting a type : dont even think about it. It elapses very rapidly and is worthless without hours on type.
IT costs you 50k or more, takes 2-3 years at best.
I found the JAR theory no so easy and sometimes boring.
At the end you get 100s of rejection letters by airlines. When you get to know people inside the industry, you meet lots of experienced jet pilots on the dole (sometimes bitter for obvious reasons), struggling instructors ...
Would i do it again : NO WAY !!
I would even prefer playing the lottery : at least you have a chance to win something.
Then some guys talk fo getting a type : dont even think about it. It elapses very rapidly and is worthless without hours on type.
Gender Faculty Specialist
And the flip side of the coin....!
I too did a JAR ATPL some years ago. It was the BEST decision I've ever made.
Yes it costs circa 50k, but it's an investment (I now earn more than that a year) And it only took me 54 WEEKS.
Who said it was going to be easy? Yes some of it is boring but, if you want an ATPL, a good job (which isn't really work), a good life style and lottsa money, you need to do it.
At the end you get a licence which allows you to fly any where in the world. Yes you get lots of rejection letters. But you will, eventually, get an acceptance letter. I've never met an experienced jet pilot who is on the dole.
Would I do it again? YES every time.
Don't give up you guys, it's more than worth it.
Oh...and I've never won anything on the lottery.
Yes it costs circa 50k, but it's an investment (I now earn more than that a year) And it only took me 54 WEEKS.
Who said it was going to be easy? Yes some of it is boring but, if you want an ATPL, a good job (which isn't really work), a good life style and lottsa money, you need to do it.
At the end you get a licence which allows you to fly any where in the world. Yes you get lots of rejection letters. But you will, eventually, get an acceptance letter. I've never met an experienced jet pilot who is on the dole.
Would I do it again? YES every time.
Don't give up you guys, it's more than worth it.
Oh...and I've never won anything on the lottery.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Scottish Borders
Age: 34
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now thats the posts i like to read, a good bit of inspiration.
But now you have yoru licence piperindian isnt there something else you can try? what about instruction, air taxi, air photography and im sure there are many others... It might not be a job with a airline as you imagined but at least its a flying job
. Or if its due to the interview that you're not getting a job then perhaps a interview course to help you with your interview skills?
But now you have yoru licence piperindian isnt there something else you can try? what about instruction, air taxi, air photography and im sure there are many others... It might not be a job with a airline as you imagined but at least its a flying job
. Or if its due to the interview that you're not getting a job then perhaps a interview course to help you with your interview skills?
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The dark side of the moon
Posts: 345
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lads,
Don't get knocked down! It is always hard to know what airlines want. Then again, often it is 'right time, right place'. I have seen it over and over.
One thing that I have noticed is that it is not easy to select the people who are going to be picked up by an airline. There have been some people I have looked at and thought they are not going to make it, but then again, I have been proved wrong. There is no model to follow and it is this inconsistency which plants seeds of doubt.
I wish there was a formula for the perfect pilot, but this is not the case.
What is apparent? The guys and girls who want it bad enough, and have the aptitude to get through the ground school and flying, will get that job. Anyone who others and I believed was not completely focused, never went much further.
So you want to be a pilot? Then be ready to sacrifice your first born... If you can show this simple commitment then time will pay off. In simple text... you better want it or go home!!!
Do you have doubt? I suggest you DON'T do it! If you think I am talking sh*t!!! Think...
Whatever you do, do not delude yourself, but aim high. The industry has changed, therefore I suggest you get to grips... What to do now!!!... ???
Isn't life a ....???
T'n'O
Don't get knocked down! It is always hard to know what airlines want. Then again, often it is 'right time, right place'. I have seen it over and over.
One thing that I have noticed is that it is not easy to select the people who are going to be picked up by an airline. There have been some people I have looked at and thought they are not going to make it, but then again, I have been proved wrong. There is no model to follow and it is this inconsistency which plants seeds of doubt.
I wish there was a formula for the perfect pilot, but this is not the case.
What is apparent? The guys and girls who want it bad enough, and have the aptitude to get through the ground school and flying, will get that job. Anyone who others and I believed was not completely focused, never went much further.
So you want to be a pilot? Then be ready to sacrifice your first born... If you can show this simple commitment then time will pay off. In simple text... you better want it or go home!!!
Do you have doubt? I suggest you DON'T do it! If you think I am talking sh*t!!! Think...
Whatever you do, do not delude yourself, but aim high. The industry has changed, therefore I suggest you get to grips... What to do now!!!... ???
Isn't life a ....???
T'n'O
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: エリア88
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Im sorry you feel that way piperindian. I can sympathise with what you say. I'm rated on the 737 but cant even get an airline interview nevermind a full time job. However, I have managed to get a little air-taxi work. There so much I dislike about what I do and a few years ago I wouldn’t have put up with any of that ****e.
Thing is, when I line up on the runway, ease the throttles up to full power, rotate and select the gear up....none of that matters anymore, im doing what I wanted to do since I was a small child and that is to fly. Sounds corny but aviation has given me so much, great friends, long term goals, life experience, people skills and so much more. I couldn't imagine doing anything else with my life.
I've met so many bitter pilots but to be honest it just makes me more determined not to end up like that. I will NEVER give up, maybe I’ll never get an airline job but I KNOW that I’ll have a great career flying something somewhere (or even lots of planes in lots of places). I just want to be the best pilot I can be and make ends meet.
Screw the lottery, it’s a game of chance. YOUR career is in YOUR hands! Nobody said it was going to be easy (ok maybe some flying school marketing rep did but screw them too!) so have a word with yourself and get them CV's out again. If you don’t try, you will never succeed!
Man, I enjoyed getting that off my chest!
Regards
Mercenary Pilot
(because you ain't a professional 'till you get paid)
Thing is, when I line up on the runway, ease the throttles up to full power, rotate and select the gear up....none of that matters anymore, im doing what I wanted to do since I was a small child and that is to fly. Sounds corny but aviation has given me so much, great friends, long term goals, life experience, people skills and so much more. I couldn't imagine doing anything else with my life.
I've met so many bitter pilots but to be honest it just makes me more determined not to end up like that. I will NEVER give up, maybe I’ll never get an airline job but I KNOW that I’ll have a great career flying something somewhere (or even lots of planes in lots of places). I just want to be the best pilot I can be and make ends meet.
Screw the lottery, it’s a game of chance. YOUR career is in YOUR hands! Nobody said it was going to be easy (ok maybe some flying school marketing rep did but screw them too!) so have a word with yourself and get them CV's out again. If you don’t try, you will never succeed!
Man, I enjoyed getting that off my chest!
Regards
Mercenary Pilot
(because you ain't a professional 'till you get paid)
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Cloud Cuckoo
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lads and Lasses...Dont know what that piperindian character is on about...seems to be a sense of bitterness perhaps from being turned down so often?? 
there have never been so many opportunities about as there are now. Seriously, for all you wannabe's, there is no better time to work for the career you want.
1) If you want it bad enough, you will get it. Without question.
2) Recruitment has never been as high as it is right now...there is such a major shortage of pilots! (Some airlines are lowering their direct entry pilot requirements because they are so short of crew)
3) With regard to a whether there is a certain type of person that airlines are after.....I trained with guys from all kinds of different backgrounds and experiences on a sponsored scheme, all of which have gone to airlines and are coping fine. Everyone has a chance.
Regarding not getting the type rating that PiperIndian mentioned....these days so many airlines love type rated pilots. Getting a 320 family rating or 737 rating opens up so many horizons... With the low-cost airlines so desperate there couldn't be a better type rating to get if you have to pay for it yourself. It saves them cash, gives you a better chance of getting in and also shows the recruitment team that extra bit of dedication on your behalf. Think of it like this.....
I know so many people that have spent a fortune on doing a degree and wasted thousands (Mainly on beer in student bars !)...but have ended up doing jobs that they hate....at least if you invest those thousands into the career you want to do, it gives you a far greater chance of getting where you want to be. (and when you're earning a very good wage in a job that you want, you can then spend the thousands on beer that you didn't at Uni!) 
P.s. And PiperIndian, I think a little more inspiration for the guys out there that desperately want to fly would be quite helpful to them, dont you think?!!
there have never been so many opportunities about as there are now. Seriously, for all you wannabe's, there is no better time to work for the career you want.
1) If you want it bad enough, you will get it. Without question.
2) Recruitment has never been as high as it is right now...there is such a major shortage of pilots! (Some airlines are lowering their direct entry pilot requirements because they are so short of crew)
3) With regard to a whether there is a certain type of person that airlines are after.....I trained with guys from all kinds of different backgrounds and experiences on a sponsored scheme, all of which have gone to airlines and are coping fine. Everyone has a chance.
Regarding not getting the type rating that PiperIndian mentioned....these days so many airlines love type rated pilots. Getting a 320 family rating or 737 rating opens up so many horizons... With the low-cost airlines so desperate there couldn't be a better type rating to get if you have to pay for it yourself. It saves them cash, gives you a better chance of getting in and also shows the recruitment team that extra bit of dedication on your behalf. Think of it like this.....
I know so many people that have spent a fortune on doing a degree and wasted thousands (Mainly on beer in student bars
!)...but have ended up doing jobs that they hate....at least if you invest those thousands into the career you want to do, it gives you a far greater chance of getting where you want to be. (and when you're earning a very good wage in a job that you want, you can then spend the thousands on beer that you didn't at Uni!) P.s. And PiperIndian, I think a little more inspiration for the guys out there that desperately want to fly would be quite helpful to them, dont you think?!!
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: LGW
Age: 39
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Someone with an ATPL complaining about it?
To a colour blind wannabe that just hurts!
I'm getting my PPL soon (hopefully) so I'll scratch the itch that way!
Happy landings to all you with ATPL's that are happy about it.... which has to be what, 99.99%?!
To a colour blind wannabe that just hurts!
I'm getting my PPL soon (hopefully) so I'll scratch the itch that way!
Happy landings to all you with ATPL's that are happy about it.... which has to be what, 99.99%?!
Right chaps, this bloke pops up every couple of months and says there are no jobs, that JAA is terrible and that training is a waste of time.
Whereas in fact the hiring market is red hot, the JAA Frzn ATPL is cheaper in real terms than the old CAP509 course was that it replaced and there has never been a better time to train.
So please - don't feed the trolls.
Cheers
WWW
Whereas in fact the hiring market is red hot, the JAA Frzn ATPL is cheaper in real terms than the old CAP509 course was that it replaced and there has never been a better time to train.
So please - don't feed the trolls.
Cheers
WWW
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
facts
some hard facts :
of the 10 guys and gals who did the frozen ATPL (modular) course, only 1 found an airline job.
Obviously there were many airline bankruptcies the last years, which did have a knock-down effect.
I met one some days ago
totally wrong WWW i have not posted for a long time on this board. this post is not a troll. All the facts are true and i estimate i have a rigth to express my opinion.
If you estimate the hiring market is red hot, why dont you post some hard facts ?
of the 10 guys and gals who did the frozen ATPL (modular) course, only 1 found an airline job.
Obviously there were many airline bankruptcies the last years, which did have a knock-down effect.
I've never met an experienced jet pilot who is on the dole.
Right chaps, this bloke pops up every couple of months and says there are no jobs, that JAA is terrible and that training is a waste of time.
Whereas in fact the hiring market is red hot, the JAA Frzn ATPL is cheaper in real terms than the old CAP509 course was that it replaced and there has never been a better time to train.
So please - don't feed the trolls.
Cheers
WWW
Whereas in fact the hiring market is red hot, the JAA Frzn ATPL is cheaper in real terms than the old CAP509 course was that it replaced and there has never been a better time to train.
So please - don't feed the trolls.
Cheers
WWW
If you estimate the hiring market is red hot, why dont you post some hard facts ?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: paris
Age: 51
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I jump on the opportunity to introduce myself on this always hot topic. First I want to apologize for my english because I'm a Froggy...
So here I come, I'm a 33 years old wanabee with a PPL, and after 10 not so boring years of computer job, I think i've missed something, and I think now's the time to do what i'm done for : to fly.
So what? I went visiting french air schools, ESMA, airways. The only thing that I wanted to do then is to run away. Theese guys are crazy. To make it short, the message is "it will cost you 60k€ and we are sure you won't find any job". Waoh! Interesting, uh?
Then I went to Quebec, to visit as many school that I could, 2500 km by car... Well, a little less expensive, but very strange. They offer FI jobs to every CPL student? how is it possible? The only one that seemed to be honnest (Grondair) is offering a fire patrol job (something like 200 h a year). But considering the need to move, the price is nearly the same then ESMA.
Piperindian, is your only goal was to be hired painlessly by BA? On the french forums, guys seems to have only AF in mind. Aren't there other jobs opportunities than airline? I mean if I want to live from flying, what are the others jobs I can aim? And may be the correct question is *where* are the others jobs I can aim?
So here I come, I'm a 33 years old wanabee with a PPL, and after 10 not so boring years of computer job, I think i've missed something, and I think now's the time to do what i'm done for : to fly.
So what? I went visiting french air schools, ESMA, airways. The only thing that I wanted to do then is to run away. Theese guys are crazy. To make it short, the message is "it will cost you 60k€ and we are sure you won't find any job". Waoh! Interesting, uh?
Then I went to Quebec, to visit as many school that I could, 2500 km by car... Well, a little less expensive, but very strange. They offer FI jobs to every CPL student? how is it possible? The only one that seemed to be honnest (Grondair) is offering a fire patrol job (something like 200 h a year). But considering the need to move, the price is nearly the same then ESMA.
Piperindian, is your only goal was to be hired painlessly by BA? On the french forums, guys seems to have only AF in mind. Aren't there other jobs opportunities than airline? I mean if I want to live from flying, what are the others jobs I can aim? And may be the correct question is *where* are the others jobs I can aim?
piperindian - i respect your 'right' to express an opinion on our bulletin board by not deleting your rambling posts.
Well the facts are plain for me to see but difficult to point to factually.
What I do know is that easyJet need to recruit 200 new pilots next year. I know that Ryanair have just ordered an additional 10 737's for delivery in less than 12 months. Those two facts alone mean that two companies need more pilots next year than were hired in the whole of 2002/2003.
Competition for your first job is vicious and nasty. Nevertheless - the hiring market is as hot as it is likely to get.
Good luck,
WWW
Well the facts are plain for me to see but difficult to point to factually.
What I do know is that easyJet need to recruit 200 new pilots next year. I know that Ryanair have just ordered an additional 10 737's for delivery in less than 12 months. Those two facts alone mean that two companies need more pilots next year than were hired in the whole of 2002/2003.
Competition for your first job is vicious and nasty. Nevertheless - the hiring market is as hot as it is likely to get.
Good luck,
WWW
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: North of CDG
Posts: 1,043
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WWW is bang on. I qualified 3 years ago and the situation had changed quite a bit from when I started training (9/11 and all that). No jobs for low hour frozen ATPLs. Too bad. Over 350 applications to operators/airlines all over, folders full of "thanks, but no thanks" answers.
What to do in the meantime? Well, back to Cabin Crew again (networking from the inside, and it pays the bills), getting to do some light a/c ferry flights through a good mate (keeps the hours up free of charge), then getting a dispatcher job at a major airport - and more networking.
The result? Three (sometimes frustrating) years down the road, I have some very good contacts, one interview done (with the sim ride soon), another one in a few weeks and I expect at least another later in the summer!
Bottom line: there are jobs out there, but:
1/ you have to do your own networking; writing CVs just doesn't work anymore, you have to be more proactive, go for them and sometimes accept some poorly-paid airport job in order to put your foot through the door
2/ most low-hour FO jobs are NOT advertised; the airlines get enough unsollicited applications anyway, so better be recommended (more networking)
3/ Get an airside job. Best thing I ever did. I know more about the operation and routines of some of the outfits I dispatch than some of the newbies FOs I come accross. In the end, if you work diligently, the powers that be (Chief Pilots, FODs, training captains, etc.) will notice and be happy to help out.
4/ Did I mention networking?
Some people get knocked down by the whole thing. If anything, 3 years of trying, and renewing the IR, medical etc. at my expense have made me even keener to find that first flying job. Chin up! The jobs are there - but you have to make them come your way.
Cheers
What to do in the meantime? Well, back to Cabin Crew again (networking from the inside, and it pays the bills), getting to do some light a/c ferry flights through a good mate (keeps the hours up free of charge), then getting a dispatcher job at a major airport - and more networking.
The result? Three (sometimes frustrating) years down the road, I have some very good contacts, one interview done (with the sim ride soon), another one in a few weeks and I expect at least another later in the summer!
Bottom line: there are jobs out there, but:
1/ you have to do your own networking; writing CVs just doesn't work anymore, you have to be more proactive, go for them and sometimes accept some poorly-paid airport job in order to put your foot through the door
2/ most low-hour FO jobs are NOT advertised; the airlines get enough unsollicited applications anyway, so better be recommended (more networking)
3/ Get an airside job. Best thing I ever did. I know more about the operation and routines of some of the outfits I dispatch than some of the newbies FOs I come accross. In the end, if you work diligently, the powers that be (Chief Pilots, FODs, training captains, etc.) will notice and be happy to help out.
4/ Did I mention networking?
Some people get knocked down by the whole thing. If anything, 3 years of trying, and renewing the IR, medical etc. at my expense have made me even keener to find that first flying job. Chin up! The jobs are there - but you have to make them come your way.
Cheers
This business is one huge cycle. If you were looking for a job in 1988, 1999, 2006 you were laughing and picking. If you were looking for a jon in 1991, 2002 you were crying. The only unusual thing is that the industry has recovered so quickly (5 years) since Sept 12th.
The next downturn IS coming - nobody knows why where or when but it is around the corner, unfortunately history says so.
WWW
The next downturn IS coming - nobody knows why where or when but it is around the corner, unfortunately history says so.
WWW
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Oporto
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Time to say... go way bad luck
I´m in the half way to get my license, alot of time, money and headaches. I´m doing modular and working at the same time, i´m 28yrs.
If i regret?
NO WAY
Some of us do it for the money, some of us do it for the pleasure and because we have personality.
And...
piperindian
Yes i agree with you that it was the worst decision you ever made, you are not made to be a pilot you give to easy.
For the rest of us, keep trying dont give up ever. Remember this, flying is a pleasure not some comercial contract you make with an airline, we fly because we like!!!
Keep the Dream alive!!!!!
If i regret?
NO WAY
Some of us do it for the money, some of us do it for the pleasure and because we have personality.
And...
piperindian
Yes i agree with you that it was the worst decision you ever made, you are not made to be a pilot you give to easy.
For the rest of us, keep trying dont give up ever. Remember this, flying is a pleasure not some comercial contract you make with an airline, we fly because we like!!!
Keep the Dream alive!!!!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATPL
CptSilva,
i think you dont know what you are talking about.
first of all if you get to the end of obtaining a frozen ATPL (modular) while working full-time at the same time like i did (with all the sacrifices) it shows a certain commitment and organisation.
I knew it would not be easy but as i said 1 on 10 got a job in an airline. when you play the lottery, the odds are better (its like 30% i believe)
I did not even speak of the guys who did not finish the frozen ATPL training.
OK. then you dont need a frozen ATPL. A PPL/IFR (which is a totally different thing) will suffice. I dont think you need to know the JAR ATPL theory to fly a C172 (even in IFR cross-country).
Most of the ATPL theory is about large transport airplanes.
Yes i agree with you that it was the worst decision you ever made, you are not made to be a pilot you give to easy.
first of all if you get to the end of obtaining a frozen ATPL (modular) while working full-time at the same time like i did (with all the sacrifices) it shows a certain commitment and organisation.
I knew it would not be easy but as i said 1 on 10 got a job in an airline. when you play the lottery, the odds are better (its like 30% i believe)
I did not even speak of the guys who did not finish the frozen ATPL training.
Remember this, flying is a pleasure not some comercial contract you make with an airline, we fly because we like!!!
Most of the ATPL theory is about large transport airplanes.