Oxford Air Training
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FAA instructors are used.
Appendix 1b to JAR-FCL 1.055
Partial Training outside JAA Member States
FTO's partly training outside the territories of a JAA Member State may perform training according to the following:
(b) The navigation progress test in Phase 3 of the ATP integrated course may be conducted by a locally based flight instructor not connected with the applicant's training, provided that the instructor holds a JAR-FCL licence containing FI(A) or CRI(A) privileges, as appropriate.
Is this the case at OAA? Are the navigation progress tests conducted by JAR-FCL licenced instructors or by instructors not holding a JAR-FCL licence authorised to instruct in a FTO outside JAA Member States as described in Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.300?
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It doesn't matter what JAR says - JAR ended June 30th 2009 however it is :
Standards Document 39 3.6.1 - governs PPL training for a UK FTO.
Groundloop - do tell....
Appendix 1 to JAR–FCL 1.300
Requirements for a specific authorisation for instructors not holding a JAR–FCL licence to instruct in a TRTO outside JAA Member States or in a FTO partial training outside JAA Member States in accordance with Appendix 1b to JAR-FCL 1.055
Requirements for a specific authorisation for instructors not holding a JAR–FCL licence to instruct in a TRTO outside JAA Member States or in a FTO partial training outside JAA Member States in accordance with Appendix 1b to JAR-FCL 1.055
Groundloop - do tell....
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Standards Document 39 3.6.1 - governs PPL training for a UK FTO.
JAR-FCL Criteria for the Approval of a Flying Training Organisation offering training for the JAA PPL and Night Qualification for Aeroplane and Helicpoter, in a non-JAA State.
I don't believe OAA conduct PPL training, do they? However, even if Standards Doc 39 were the authority, I think you would find similar compliance issues:
Standards Document 39
2.3 Chief Flying Instructor
2.3.1 The CFI shall meet the requirements of JAR-FCL 1.055/2.055, and in addition, hold an instructor qualification that is recognised by, and valid in the State in which instruction is to be given.
According to the FAA, The CFI does not hold an FAA Flight Instructor Certificate and I don't believe the FAA recognise UK CAA or JAA instructor qualifications?
3.5.2 The ratio of non-JAA instructors qualified in accordance with Appendix 1 to JAA-FCL 1.300/2.300 to JAA qualified instructors shall not exceed 8:1 for PPL training courses. There shall always be a JAA qualified, unrestricted flight instructor on duty at the FTO when training is taking place. This instructor must be readily available within the FTO, or on the airfield or not beyond the circuit pattern if flying is taking place.
So PPL training demands a ratio of not greater than 8:1 non-JAA to JAA instructors; what is the ratio in Phoenix? Is there always an unrestricted, qualified JAA instructor on duty as described, seven days a week throughout the day, after 5pm until the cessation of night flying and at weekends?
3.6.2 Non-JAA instructors qualified as described in para 3.6 shall only give instruction for a JAA licence or rating at the FTO where the standardisation took place; the qualification is not transferable. No instruction shall be given towards a JAA professional licence or Instrument Rating.
So clearly the wrong document BigGrecian but it illustrates an interesting point; why pay so much more for professional pilot training, integrated or modular, at a school that partially trains outside of member states when they don't even meet the basic criteria for PPL training approval outside of member states according to the CAA? These facts may be acknowledged by former students but few if any potential trainees have even the slightest clue about the regulatory safety nets established to protect them prior to signing up for many tens of thousands of pounds worth of debt - and it doesn't seem that in this case, the FTO does either.
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They have JAA instructors and examiners on staff.
They just do examining and mainly administrative tasks.
The CFI will be JAA as per the requirements.
I was just mentioning Standards Doc 39 for general PPL training.
They meet the requierments of JAR FCL 1.300 Appendix 1 though, so they are legal.
Naples, OFT, OBA/EASA all operate the same way.
EFT has JAA FIs who also have FAA CFIs etc.
But your right - your paying 3 times the price for something which they are probably paying about 1/3 for.
They've also got a reputation for shoddy standards even compared to the US JAA standard, due to their in house examining, and are considered by some to be the lower quality output of the USA....
They just do examining and mainly administrative tasks.
The CFI will be JAA as per the requirements.
I was just mentioning Standards Doc 39 for general PPL training.
They meet the requierments of JAR FCL 1.300 Appendix 1 though, so they are legal.
Naples, OFT, OBA/EASA all operate the same way.
EFT has JAA FIs who also have FAA CFIs etc.
But your right - your paying 3 times the price for something which they are probably paying about 1/3 for.
They've also got a reputation for shoddy standards even compared to the US JAA standard, due to their in house examining, and are considered by some to be the lower quality output of the USA....
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OAA help the graduated student by emailing them applications for recruiting airlines. I guess maybe one every two months over the last 2 years due to the current climate. I know that of the 22 on my OAA intake only about 3 or 4 are not in a flying role at the moment. This is mainly to do with the individuals circumstances and attitude. i.e. not really looking for employment and mainly due to most funds being taken up by the ATPL and therefore not able to pay for a further PTF course.
As far as the instructors in OAA Arizona are concerned (Can't speak for Melbourne - never been there) The instruction is mainly done by FAA instructors (that I found to be very, very thorough, diligent and experienced), but the progress tests are done by JAA certified examiners and the actual licence tests by CAA examiners. As far as it being below standard from USA, I would have to disagree. I thought OAA did exactly what they said they would. They provided us with a JAA ATPL(f) and the vast majority gained the full licence with very little trouble.
PPL won't stand for anything on the Integrated course. You'll still have to do everything. To make the point - there was an RAF Fast Jet pilot on a few courses behind me (medical issues for discharge), and he still had to do the same amount of hours as the rest of us. I think the first few basic progress checks were removed and he was given the more advanced tests - which he passed with flying colours, as you'd expect.
As far as the instructors in OAA Arizona are concerned (Can't speak for Melbourne - never been there) The instruction is mainly done by FAA instructors (that I found to be very, very thorough, diligent and experienced), but the progress tests are done by JAA certified examiners and the actual licence tests by CAA examiners. As far as it being below standard from USA, I would have to disagree. I thought OAA did exactly what they said they would. They provided us with a JAA ATPL(f) and the vast majority gained the full licence with very little trouble.
PPL won't stand for anything on the Integrated course. You'll still have to do everything. To make the point - there was an RAF Fast Jet pilot on a few courses behind me (medical issues for discharge), and he still had to do the same amount of hours as the rest of us. I think the first few basic progress checks were removed and he was given the more advanced tests - which he passed with flying colours, as you'd expect.
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s far as it being below standard from USA, I would have to disagree. I thought OAA did exactly what they said they would.
Yes they got you a JAA CPL and my point is that they have in house examining which has lead to low standards...
They're interested in you passing because then they have a high pass % and it adds to the Oxford prestige which of course is total rubbish.
Also what do you have to compare it against? What you perceive to be a good standard, is of course part of the whole Oxford "experience"
It's relative.
We got phone calls from Oxford graduates all the time where I work after FI jobs....which when they spent well over double what students could spend with us....means the price mark up isn't worth it.
Last edited by BigGrecian; 10th Oct 2010 at 13:26.
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And those FI's have to be retrained otherwise you end up with students doing 3 deg approaches all the time.
Nav can be a bit hit and miss as well. They have some truely bizarre methods for diversions.
And they have to be checked out in xwinds, that can be entertaining to watch the first time they get a half decent one.
Saying that we have one part timer intergrated trained FI(R) at our school and he is developing into quite a good instructor. Personally I think its more to do with his previous instructing roles in other skill sets, and his personality lends itself to accepting opinion away from his own SEP training. He think's about what has been said and ask's questions then forms his own opinions.
Either that or he is being supervised properly by the unrestricted instructors and we are doing a good job at it
But 90% of it is down to his personality accepting that the way he has been taught is not the only way to operate an aircraft or the best way I might add.
Its quite funny now when he does checks on fellow ex OAT students. Critical is an understatement.
Nav can be a bit hit and miss as well. They have some truely bizarre methods for diversions.
And they have to be checked out in xwinds, that can be entertaining to watch the first time they get a half decent one.
Saying that we have one part timer intergrated trained FI(R) at our school and he is developing into quite a good instructor. Personally I think its more to do with his previous instructing roles in other skill sets, and his personality lends itself to accepting opinion away from his own SEP training. He think's about what has been said and ask's questions then forms his own opinions.
Either that or he is being supervised properly by the unrestricted instructors and we are doing a good job at it
But 90% of it is down to his personality accepting that the way he has been taught is not the only way to operate an aircraft or the best way I might add. Its quite funny now when he does checks on fellow ex OAT students. Critical is an understatement.
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but the progress tests are done by JAA certified examiners and the actual licence tests by CAA examiners.
They have JAA instructors and examiners on staff.
They just do examining and mainly administrative tasks.
The CFI will be JAA as per the requirements.
They just do examining and mainly administrative tasks.
The CFI will be JAA as per the requirements.
Naples, OFT, OBA/EASA all operate the same way.
EFT has JAA FIs who also have FAA CFIs etc.
EFT has JAA FIs who also have FAA CFIs etc.
Groundloop - do tell....
Not the rule yet but in the pipeline.
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I studied at OAA on their Integrated course. Although I have no experience from other flight schools I found OAA to be a fantastic school with a highly professional teaching environment both in Groundschool and during the Flight Training.
You definitely have to put the work in as i'm sure you're aware. Groundschool runs from 08:40 until 16:20 monday to friday and then I'd say about 3 or 4 hours of self study are required in the evenings (maybe more when exams are looming).
The CPL training out in Arizona was a fantastic experience, something that will live with you for the rest of your life! Although by no means a necessity, I think already holding a PPL gives you that little boost at the beginning of your CPL training as you will have been introduced to flying light aircraft and will be more confident in the early stages. Coming to the end of the CPL however, everyone is at pretty much the same standard.
Then the really challenging part came, the Instrument Rating (IR). This part of the course was carried out in the multi-engine PA-34 Seneca back in Oxford (and PA-34 Simulators). I found my instructor to be a highly helpful, professional and focused person who really wanted what we wanted, to pass the IR first time. No question about it, he pushed us hard and sometimes we were at the airport 12 or 14 hours a day practicing on the desktop simulators to get things spot on. Thanks to our instructors high quality skills, great availabilty of aircraft, a well structured programme and my flying partner and I putting a lot of work in, we got first time passes on our 170A's and IR Skill Tests.
The MCC and JOC was also huge amounts of fun on the 737-400! With our instructors being ex airline pilots they really knew how to focus or minds on our future roles in multi crew environments. We also did many airline style sim assessments and overall was a good introduction to MCC and jet operations.
Your course mates and OAA members of staff are ALWAYS there to help you should you need it, be it personal issues or advice on how to make the best of your time and training.
The course was very hard work but highly rewarding. I have made some great friends and will always look back on the course with the fondest of memories.
GD
You definitely have to put the work in as i'm sure you're aware. Groundschool runs from 08:40 until 16:20 monday to friday and then I'd say about 3 or 4 hours of self study are required in the evenings (maybe more when exams are looming).
The CPL training out in Arizona was a fantastic experience, something that will live with you for the rest of your life! Although by no means a necessity, I think already holding a PPL gives you that little boost at the beginning of your CPL training as you will have been introduced to flying light aircraft and will be more confident in the early stages. Coming to the end of the CPL however, everyone is at pretty much the same standard.
Then the really challenging part came, the Instrument Rating (IR). This part of the course was carried out in the multi-engine PA-34 Seneca back in Oxford (and PA-34 Simulators). I found my instructor to be a highly helpful, professional and focused person who really wanted what we wanted, to pass the IR first time. No question about it, he pushed us hard and sometimes we were at the airport 12 or 14 hours a day practicing on the desktop simulators to get things spot on. Thanks to our instructors high quality skills, great availabilty of aircraft, a well structured programme and my flying partner and I putting a lot of work in, we got first time passes on our 170A's and IR Skill Tests.
The MCC and JOC was also huge amounts of fun on the 737-400! With our instructors being ex airline pilots they really knew how to focus or minds on our future roles in multi crew environments. We also did many airline style sim assessments and overall was a good introduction to MCC and jet operations.
Your course mates and OAA members of staff are ALWAYS there to help you should you need it, be it personal issues or advice on how to make the best of your time and training.
The course was very hard work but highly rewarding. I have made some great friends and will always look back on the course with the fondest of memories.
GD
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Yeah they did me a good price for writing that little article! 
Seriously though I was just talking about how much I enjoyed training with them, did you enjoy your flight training? It's got to be hard not to enjoy it!
Seriously though I was just talking about how much I enjoyed training with them, did you enjoy your flight training? It's got to be hard not to enjoy it!
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Firstly i would like to say hi to everyone as its my first post! Iam in my low 30s and luckly now find myself in a position to be able to chase my dream of being able to fly for a living! This weekend i visited the oxford open day as i was unsure of really knowing how to take the next step i.e modular or intergrated. Being honest i wasnt very impressed. After being told in no uncertain terms by one of the instructors "low 30s is to old for airline training and employment" the day wasnt going to well!
I have to be honest, although yes the facility looks great, i can honestly say i thought it was all a bit miss leading.
The md of oaa gave a talk on about how great the service/facility is and how "intergrated" is really the only way to get a job now for the newbie atpl holder etc etc. But then right at the end of the speach he went onto cost. over 86k plus a type rating that could well be over an additional 30k. The 86k was provided that a first time pass was achived on every phase! so if your "Normal" and not a robot you have got to budget for some extra training. I roughly added it all up to around £130k with some extra training, as did a few other people i got talking to on the day!
Then came the crunch for me. A airline training captain came along to obviously push the training that oaa provide, and make it clear that there were openings in 2011 and oaa intergrated students will be high up on the list to the airline But.... He stated that the students they offer jobs to would be paid by an hourly rate of £50p/h. But restricted to 500hrs maximum. Once they have completed the 500hrs they MIGHT be offered further employment.
I cant help but think is this a correct??, who would fork out towards 130k to see a return lets be honest of 20k (after taxes) tops and then be told "sorry mate ya out of a job!" and still at the end have a frozen licence.
I might have miss understood but i was not alone in thinking this on the day.
If i have got it wrong i will hold my hands up and say sorry but at the end of the day iam looking at spending alot of money with a training provider and from what i heard on Sat at this stage it wont be OAA.
I have to be honest, although yes the facility looks great, i can honestly say i thought it was all a bit miss leading.
The md of oaa gave a talk on about how great the service/facility is and how "intergrated" is really the only way to get a job now for the newbie atpl holder etc etc. But then right at the end of the speach he went onto cost. over 86k plus a type rating that could well be over an additional 30k. The 86k was provided that a first time pass was achived on every phase! so if your "Normal" and not a robot you have got to budget for some extra training. I roughly added it all up to around £130k with some extra training, as did a few other people i got talking to on the day!
Then came the crunch for me. A airline training captain came along to obviously push the training that oaa provide, and make it clear that there were openings in 2011 and oaa intergrated students will be high up on the list to the airline But.... He stated that the students they offer jobs to would be paid by an hourly rate of £50p/h. But restricted to 500hrs maximum. Once they have completed the 500hrs they MIGHT be offered further employment.
I cant help but think is this a correct??, who would fork out towards 130k to see a return lets be honest of 20k (after taxes) tops and then be told "sorry mate ya out of a job!" and still at the end have a frozen licence.
I might have miss understood but i was not alone in thinking this on the day.
If i have got it wrong i will hold my hands up and say sorry but at the end of the day iam looking at spending alot of money with a training provider and from what i heard on Sat at this stage it wont be OAA.
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Sparks8
No, you have not misunderstood - this sounds correct. Plus, you would be competing with everyone else trying to get that same job but I suppose making 20K with a lot of debt is better than making nothing?
No, you have not misunderstood - this sounds correct. Plus, you would be competing with everyone else trying to get that same job but I suppose making 20K with a lot of debt is better than making nothing?
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Where was the training captain from?
500 hours max?
That was certainly a rumour that did the rounds early this year, but as a grad I know friends who are on both 5 year contracts and ones to the end of 2011, and from looking at both theirs (and mine) I can say there are no hourly statements!
In fact, for most of us, our pay goes up after 500 hours..
500 hours max?
That was certainly a rumour that did the rounds early this year, but as a grad I know friends who are on both 5 year contracts and ones to the end of 2011, and from looking at both theirs (and mine) I can say there are no hourly statements!
In fact, for most of us, our pay goes up after 500 hours..
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Hi Again, Thanks for the replies. The training captain was from easyjet. Really nice guy but he was very specific in making it clear that each student they take would be restricted to 500hrs max for a year, and after that the student MIGHT be offered a further contract. If i remember correctly this was raised by a lady questioning it at the end of the talk, and the reason/answer i believe was down to the "global economic climate" but then he went on telling us all how the company is cash rich with a very substantial amount bank!
I couldnt help but think the two comments contradicted themselves a little. He did however also make it clear that he and the comapny he worked for is starting to see a turn for the better and new a.craft are expected in 2011. Like i said iam new to all this and could easily have miss understood. But i was not alone in my thinking on the day, With that and being told i was to old it has put a bit of a dampener on oaa. I agree my chances of flying big jets for major airlines could well be "pie in the sky" at the moment but when the current climate does change, and it will, doors then might well open that are shut now (for all training students). Either way my determination is high and i will get there one day whatever route/training provider i use! I Have been told and heard good things about stapleford - cabair - multiflight so if anyone out there has views either way on them please do tell.
I couldnt help but think the two comments contradicted themselves a little. He did however also make it clear that he and the comapny he worked for is starting to see a turn for the better and new a.craft are expected in 2011. Like i said iam new to all this and could easily have miss understood. But i was not alone in my thinking on the day, With that and being told i was to old it has put a bit of a dampener on oaa. I agree my chances of flying big jets for major airlines could well be "pie in the sky" at the moment but when the current climate does change, and it will, doors then might well open that are shut now (for all training students). Either way my determination is high and i will get there one day whatever route/training provider i use! I Have been told and heard good things about stapleford - cabair - multiflight so if anyone out there has views either way on them please do tell.
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let me say what i've experienced so far :)
Hi sparks , let me say my experience hope it is useful and compare a little bit between stapleford and others ..... i have been searching for flying schools to start from zero to atpl for months now and Stapleford was the best in the uk !! i have went to cabair , BCFT ( bournemouth ), bristol , oxford and i checked evrything there so i think i can compare very good . i will write in points to be easier to compare .
1) Stapleford has a very large fleet including more than 40 aircraft wich no other place have it with this variety as they have the C152 , piper arrow , piper warrior , Sceneca , and the D42 wich is a great aircraft to fly
( Compared to oxford, they have only the Cessna's , warrior , sceneca , so they dont hae the D42 which is a very big advantage to stapleford (
NB: to b fair the C152's used for the ppl is a little bit old but flying wise no problems and will be great to fly them )
2)The location of stapleford is one of the best locations in the uk to train in , b cuz around the airfield there is their uncontrolled airpsoace and also there is the controlled airspace near central london and essex .
also for the location ,l it is suited between 3 big ariports like heathrow , gatwick and stansted so a lot of traffic to deal with .
wen i flew the C152 tehr i spotted the Emirates A380
lol
NB: it is less than 60 min driving from central london !! ( the point is u need a car )
3)They have two runways asphlat one and grass one .
(the asphalt one isn't equipped for the ILS , so they use Southend airpot , so u have an advantage ther )
4)very high pass rates .
5) very good recruiting record to graduates ( u can check their site )
6)Instructors are the best !! very professional , kind , down to earth.
7) 99% postive reviews
8)lowest modular cost !! and getting quality training
This what i concluded from all my visits and questions . hopefully i will start in march my training
hope this helps
1) Stapleford has a very large fleet including more than 40 aircraft wich no other place have it with this variety as they have the C152 , piper arrow , piper warrior , Sceneca , and the D42 wich is a great aircraft to fly
( Compared to oxford, they have only the Cessna's , warrior , sceneca , so they dont hae the D42 which is a very big advantage to stapleford (
NB: to b fair the C152's used for the ppl is a little bit old but flying wise no problems and will be great to fly them )
2)The location of stapleford is one of the best locations in the uk to train in , b cuz around the airfield there is their uncontrolled airpsoace and also there is the controlled airspace near central london and essex .
also for the location ,l it is suited between 3 big ariports like heathrow , gatwick and stansted so a lot of traffic to deal with .
wen i flew the C152 tehr i spotted the Emirates A380
lolNB: it is less than 60 min driving from central london !! ( the point is u need a car )
3)They have two runways asphlat one and grass one .
(the asphalt one isn't equipped for the ILS , so they use Southend airpot , so u have an advantage ther )
4)very high pass rates .
5) very good recruiting record to graduates ( u can check their site )
6)Instructors are the best !! very professional , kind , down to earth.
7) 99% postive reviews
8)lowest modular cost !! and getting quality training
This what i concluded from all my visits and questions . hopefully i will start in march my training
hope this helps