Logbook and Logging Hours Questions
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Unfortunatley...
Hi,
Unfortunately these hours are not recognised by JAR, the whole scheme runs on the idea that two parties (i.e. two pilots can log twice the amount of hours at half the price), however it is not recognised here in the UK.
Best regards,
D
Unfortunately these hours are not recognised by JAR, the whole scheme runs on the idea that two parties (i.e. two pilots can log twice the amount of hours at half the price), however it is not recognised here in the UK.
Best regards,
D
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Yeah I know that used to be the case for sure with this outfit. Now on their website they are specifically advertising for JAA P1 time at 20 extra/hr. So not sure if they are pulling a fast one or what the lie of the land is until our mate Lord Flashart can reveal all from his phone conversation.
Last edited by potkettleblack; 17th Aug 2006 at 16:20.
Educated Hillbilly
Quite simply of the 100 hours you are referring to, 50 hours is flown under screens or the hood as the handling pilot under simulated IMC, the other 50 hours is flown as the safety pilot. On the FAA system you can log safety pilot time, under JAA you can't, therefore half that time is "loggable" under JAA.
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I did ask them whether the time was logable under the JARs when I initially phoned them, as potkettleblack has said they offer an option of an extra $20/hr payment for all P1 time, rather than the 50/50 split portsharbourflyer refers to.
They claimed that if I paid this extra, and was flying as P1 for the entire 100 hours, with another guy flying as safety pilot / P2 (who would be logging the hours under the FARs) I would be able to log these hours under the JAA system, but I'm a little concerned that even if I'm PIC the CAA might disallow the hours due to not allowing more than one pilot to log hours in what they see as a single pilot aircraft (even if the other pilot is logging them under FAA regs).
I certainly wouldn't believe the hours were loggable if they were flown as P2/Safety pilot, however, since they are claimed to be all P1 hours I'm curious. Surely the hours don't need to be solo to be logable under JAR - isn't it enough for me to be PIC?
Cheers.
They claimed that if I paid this extra, and was flying as P1 for the entire 100 hours, with another guy flying as safety pilot / P2 (who would be logging the hours under the FARs) I would be able to log these hours under the JAA system, but I'm a little concerned that even if I'm PIC the CAA might disallow the hours due to not allowing more than one pilot to log hours in what they see as a single pilot aircraft (even if the other pilot is logging them under FAA regs).
I certainly wouldn't believe the hours were loggable if they were flown as P2/Safety pilot, however, since they are claimed to be all P1 hours I'm curious. Surely the hours don't need to be solo to be logable under JAR - isn't it enough for me to be PIC?
Cheers.
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In the US most multi flying requires two pilots for insurance.
Yes the hours are loggable just make sure when you fly your the sole manipulator and you can claim it PIC - it's not rocket science!
Makes it easier if you fly with an FAA pilot rather than JAA then there's no argument etc etc....it's worked in the past for collegues...
Yes the hours are loggable just make sure when you fly your the sole manipulator and you can claim it PIC - it's not rocket science!
Makes it easier if you fly with an FAA pilot rather than JAA then there's no argument etc etc....it's worked in the past for collegues...
Last edited by BigGrecian; 17th Aug 2006 at 21:30.
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Originally Posted by BigGrecian
In the US most multi flying requires two pilots for insurance.
Yes the hours are loggable just make sure when you fly your the solo manipulator and you can claim it PIC - it's not rocket science!
Makes it easier if you fly with an FAA pilot rather than JAA then there's no argument etc etc....it's worked in the past for collegues...
Yes the hours are loggable just make sure when you fly your the solo manipulator and you can claim it PIC - it's not rocket science!
Makes it easier if you fly with an FAA pilot rather than JAA then there's no argument etc etc....it's worked in the past for collegues...
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I have just been reading another thread and it says that for the FAA guy to log his hours as safety pilot, I'd have to fly IFR, otherwise a safety pilot wouldn't be needed and hence he can't log p2.
But in that case, surely I'd need an IR, otherwise he would have to be P1 for me to be under the hood????
The more I think about this the more confused I get - can anyone please clarify, can a guy on an FAA course log P2 while I'm flying VFR and logging P1? How about if I had an IR and was flying IFR?
Thanks.
But in that case, surely I'd need an IR, otherwise he would have to be P1 for me to be under the hood????
The more I think about this the more confused I get - can anyone please clarify, can a guy on an FAA course log P2 while I'm flying VFR and logging P1? How about if I had an IR and was flying IFR?
Thanks.
Last edited by Lord Flashart; 17th Aug 2006 at 22:36.
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My advice is before you spend any money to put the facts down in writing to the CAA and get their view on it. My belief is that under JAA two people cannot log time unless they were flying a multi crew aircraft. This will not be the case for you. If you knowingly fly around with another bloke logging time and the CAA found out regardless of whether you were the sole manipulator of the controls etc then I would expect them to be very suspicious of your hours and at best downgrade them.
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'other flying'
Hi,
This is just a question as to whether non-P1 flights in GA aircraft can be logged into the logbook in the 'other flying' column.
I have a valid PPL, but I have recently been flying with various aircraft owners in their aircraft. I know perfectly well that any flights in these aircraft, even though im up the front, cannot be counted in any form of P1, P2, etc.
However I would like to include it, if for reference purposes alone, in my logbook - is the 'other flying' column suitable and allowable??
Cheers
This is just a question as to whether non-P1 flights in GA aircraft can be logged into the logbook in the 'other flying' column.
I have a valid PPL, but I have recently been flying with various aircraft owners in their aircraft. I know perfectly well that any flights in these aircraft, even though im up the front, cannot be counted in any form of P1, P2, etc.
However I would like to include it, if for reference purposes alone, in my logbook - is the 'other flying' column suitable and allowable??
Cheers
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you can NOT do this IFR.
Must be VFR in VMC.
Under the FAR the definition of PIC is:
*Required crewmember
*Sole manipulator of controls
*Responsible for the safe conduct of the flight
For a "P2" to log PIC (under FAR) he must be a required crewmember, this he can only be when serving as safety pilot in VMC as a "look-out pilot" while the sole-manipulator-of-controls flies with a view-limiting device.
You basically share the required functions so that one is manipulating and the other is responsible for safe conduct...
If you fly IFR the person NOT manipulating the controls becomes obsolete.
Additionally, I can mention that any employer in the US will look at this way of logging with a certain amount skepticism, even if it's legal under FAR I would seriously consider if it's worth putting in your logbook.
It's definitely not approved under JAR!
Must be VFR in VMC.
Under the FAR the definition of PIC is:
*Required crewmember
*Sole manipulator of controls
*Responsible for the safe conduct of the flight
For a "P2" to log PIC (under FAR) he must be a required crewmember, this he can only be when serving as safety pilot in VMC as a "look-out pilot" while the sole-manipulator-of-controls flies with a view-limiting device.
You basically share the required functions so that one is manipulating and the other is responsible for safe conduct...
If you fly IFR the person NOT manipulating the controls becomes obsolete.
Additionally, I can mention that any employer in the US will look at this way of logging with a certain amount skepticism, even if it's legal under FAR I would seriously consider if it's worth putting in your logbook.
It's definitely not approved under JAR!
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Hello.
So the conclusion is that something is wrong when they say that for plus 20$US we can log all the hours as JAR PIC, right? Why do we have always to fly with a safety pilot even in IFR?
Another thing, even if we fly with another pilot but they let us log the hours as PIC what is the problem?
Best regards !
So the conclusion is that something is wrong when they say that for plus 20$US we can log all the hours as JAR PIC, right? Why do we have always to fly with a safety pilot even in IFR?
Another thing, even if we fly with another pilot but they let us log the hours as PIC what is the problem?
Best regards !
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Because the deal works on the basis that BOTH of you pay for the hours being flown. If you can find someone who will happily pay half of the flight cost whilst you log PIC then that is fine. But under JAA what do they log - or are you hoping that they won't mind?
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Logging IMC / IFR
Have recently switchd over from a FAA log book to a Jeppesen JAA (JAR-FCL 1.080).
In the JAA logbook it asks for time logged under "Instrument Flight Rules". However, all my flights are under IFR, even if I'm flying in VMC. My question is how can you differentiate between IFR and IMC/Actual Instrument? Are the CAA/JAA not interested in these hours?
I've read Lasors Section A, Appendix B about logging time but it only mentions that time is to be differentitated between Night and IFR. In my FAA log book there are columns for "Night", "Actual Instrument" and "Simulated Hood". How are others logging these in your 1.080 logbooks?
Also, landings are separated under Night and Day, whereas the in the FAA all landings are logged together. How important is this?
Thanks in advance.
In the JAA logbook it asks for time logged under "Instrument Flight Rules". However, all my flights are under IFR, even if I'm flying in VMC. My question is how can you differentiate between IFR and IMC/Actual Instrument? Are the CAA/JAA not interested in these hours?
I've read Lasors Section A, Appendix B about logging time but it only mentions that time is to be differentitated between Night and IFR. In my FAA log book there are columns for "Night", "Actual Instrument" and "Simulated Hood". How are others logging these in your 1.080 logbooks?
Also, landings are separated under Night and Day, whereas the in the FAA all landings are logged together. How important is this?
Thanks in advance.
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To answer your last question first, if not operating under JAR-OPS, in Europe you must have made at leat 3 take-off's and landings in the last 90 days as Pilot Flying if you are going to carry passengers. If qualified to fly at night (e.g. night qualification or CPL, ATPL holder) and your intention is to carry passengers on a night flight, if you do not hold a valid IR then 1 of these take-off's and landings must have been made at night. It's somewhere in LASORS and JAR-FCL 1.
Now, the IMC/IFR debate has been around for a while. Prior to JAR many countries in Europe only required you to log actual instrument time. Logbooks would have a coulmn provided for this. Since the JAR's arrived they seem to be more concerned about the fact that your flight was VFR or IFR. The only time instrument time is required to be recorded is when training for a new rating or licence. For example, A PPL holder wishing to obtain an IR (single engine) must complete 50 hours of instrument time of which 35 can be in an FNPT 2. Note, this is INSTRUMENT TIME and not IFR time. As you probably know, you can gain instrument time on a VFR flight plan (under the hood, foggles etc) and you can also gain IFR time on a Gin clear day while operating on an IFR flight plan.
Which begs the question, why do Flight instructors wishing to upgrade to unrestricted instructors able to teach for the IR only require 200 hours IFR under JAR and no additional proven actual instrument time?! Makes you wonder.
So, to summarise, I suggest if you intend to train for a new rating or licence you log both (instruemt time in remarks column, as stated in instructions at the front of your new logbook) but, if you hold an ATPL, then just record time spend under IFR. Which, during most airline operations (but not all!) is the block time of every flight. Though pointless it does make it easy.
Apologies for the long winded reply but hope it clarifies things a little.
Now, the IMC/IFR debate has been around for a while. Prior to JAR many countries in Europe only required you to log actual instrument time. Logbooks would have a coulmn provided for this. Since the JAR's arrived they seem to be more concerned about the fact that your flight was VFR or IFR. The only time instrument time is required to be recorded is when training for a new rating or licence. For example, A PPL holder wishing to obtain an IR (single engine) must complete 50 hours of instrument time of which 35 can be in an FNPT 2. Note, this is INSTRUMENT TIME and not IFR time. As you probably know, you can gain instrument time on a VFR flight plan (under the hood, foggles etc) and you can also gain IFR time on a Gin clear day while operating on an IFR flight plan.
Which begs the question, why do Flight instructors wishing to upgrade to unrestricted instructors able to teach for the IR only require 200 hours IFR under JAR and no additional proven actual instrument time?! Makes you wonder.
So, to summarise, I suggest if you intend to train for a new rating or licence you log both (instruemt time in remarks column, as stated in instructions at the front of your new logbook) but, if you hold an ATPL, then just record time spend under IFR. Which, during most airline operations (but not all!) is the block time of every flight. Though pointless it does make it easy.
Apologies for the long winded reply but hope it clarifies things a little.
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Log Book fo Commercial Training
I'm about to start my PPL and need intend to follow it though to commercial training and professional flying. Anyone having gone down the pipeline some distance got any pearls of wisdom earned from those irritating features you just wished your log book had? Or those grass-is-greener moments when you wish you'd bought THAT logbook from the begining?
How is the standard CAA logbook?
Cheers.
How is the standard CAA logbook?
Cheers.
Logbook
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Hi Flik Roll
Welcome to PPRuNE, I strongly recommend you read THE STICKY
at the top of this forum as it will answer most of your questions.
Welcome to PPRuNE, I strongly recommend you read THE STICKY
at the top of this forum as it will answer most of your questions.
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might be worth having a look at LASORS which states that hours gained by a SMLG (Self launching glider) does not qualify towards your revalidation. I would doubt it would count towards your hours, but I might be wrong on that part which is why i'd check LASORS...a copy can be downloaded from www.caa.co.uk