EFT - APP program
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EFT - APP program
Dear All,
For those of you interested in training with EFT on their APP program, I have just heard from Trevor Brackston - Head Of Training there - as follows:
"I only have 6 spaces left this year for the APP and have decided I will be saving them for students that I know personaly [sic]. as you can apretiate [sic] the APP students become my employees and end up representing EFT, thus marketing us further and then representing us with the Airlines [sic]. So I think it only fair to let you know this now so that you can plan your training. I wish you good Luck [sic] in the future.
Regards
Trevor "
Sound like a coded message to you? It does to me. I have a feeling that Mr Brackston doesn't like any customers who ask any questions about inaccuracies on their website.
(i.e. there is NO free accommodation for APP students (unlike the website which clearly claims that there is) and there is NO multi-engine time accruable as an instructor unless you spend a further $10,000 with them (unlike their course breakdown material which clearly suggests that 200 hours can be accrued)
I suspect that pointing those two facts out has marked me as a customer with rather too much interest in the small print. Lord save us from flying-school websites with poor information, and flying schools who don't appear to want anyone's business...
Thought i'd share that with you...hint of sarcasm, you betcha...
Birky
For those of you interested in training with EFT on their APP program, I have just heard from Trevor Brackston - Head Of Training there - as follows:
"I only have 6 spaces left this year for the APP and have decided I will be saving them for students that I know personaly [sic]. as you can apretiate [sic] the APP students become my employees and end up representing EFT, thus marketing us further and then representing us with the Airlines [sic]. So I think it only fair to let you know this now so that you can plan your training. I wish you good Luck [sic] in the future.
Regards
Trevor "
Sound like a coded message to you? It does to me. I have a feeling that Mr Brackston doesn't like any customers who ask any questions about inaccuracies on their website.
(i.e. there is NO free accommodation for APP students (unlike the website which clearly claims that there is) and there is NO multi-engine time accruable as an instructor unless you spend a further $10,000 with them (unlike their course breakdown material which clearly suggests that 200 hours can be accrued)
I suspect that pointing those two facts out has marked me as a customer with rather too much interest in the small print. Lord save us from flying-school websites with poor information, and flying schools who don't appear to want anyone's business...
Thought i'd share that with you...hint of sarcasm, you betcha...
Birky
Last edited by Birky; 10th May 2005 at 17:15.
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Birky,
There's no coded message,just go back to the website and read it slowly.Have to whole-heartedly agree with FF.The team at EFT are great,excellent instruction( which is the main reason you would want to go there ),I know that for a fact as I passed my CPL with them on sunday.Oh,and the weathers good ..............most of the time!!.
Perhaps you might want to try the modular route,you could ask EFT if they could structure you an appropriate course to take you through all necessary ratings but just not on the APP scheme.
If you don't ask....................!
M.
There's no coded message,just go back to the website and read it slowly.Have to whole-heartedly agree with FF.The team at EFT are great,excellent instruction( which is the main reason you would want to go there ),I know that for a fact as I passed my CPL with them on sunday.Oh,and the weathers good ..............most of the time!!.
Perhaps you might want to try the modular route,you could ask EFT if they could structure you an appropriate course to take you through all necessary ratings but just not on the APP scheme.
If you don't ask....................!
M.
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EFT - APP
Hey Frank Furillo, SAMIR786 and mackey...
Firstly guys, I have no doubt at all that EFT’s training is very good. That’s precisely why I was interested in going there in the first place, so you can all keep your hair on.
Secondly, however well-intentioned your support for EFT is, you are all mistaken with regard to the inaccuracies I have drawn your attention to. Look again...
Re: Accommodation on the APP program – included or not?
Frank, you’re quite right to say that at one point on the site (http://www.flyeft.com/app/financial_app.html) accommodation is marked as NOT included, what I am saying is that they have conflicting information on their website, something which they still haven't rectified as of 10.5.05 (a week after I told them about it). Look at http://www.flyeft.com/inside_eft/accommodation.html and you will see quite clearly that EFT say,
"Cadets enrolled on the Airline Pilot Programme™, who are working with EFT for a period of up to two years, live in our own student housing in nearby Vero Beach - a 10 minute drive from EFT's base. We built these houses (fifteen overall) as a response to previous students' dissatisfaction with the available accommodation at EFT. Erected in mid-2003, the houses are bright and spacious, each containing two en-suite bedrooms and a shared kitchen and living room. Bedrooms are suitably equipped with cable television, telephone and internet access. It's the perfect training and living environment while working with EFT. Rental of student houses is $575 per calendar month (or $25 per day), with an initial security deposit of $250. This price is included in the APP™ course, but is charged separately for Modular and FastTrack™ students."
The last line clearly says the accommodation is part-and-parcel of the APP fee, no?
Re: Multi-engine hours – included on the APP program or not?
Take a look at http://www.flyeft.com/library/app_schedule.pdf
At the bottom of that PDF document (Phase 5) it clearly implies that instructors with EFT's APP program can build up to 200 hours of ME time. This is not true, not unless you spend a further $10,000 with them and get a ME instructor rating. It is very misleading of them not to point this out clearly on their website.
Guys, my overall point is this. Anyone can make a mistake on a website. It's how you handle being corrected that matters. I would say EFT's reaction could be characterised as,
"avoid this smart alec, we don't want him working as an instructor for us because he looks at the small print too much".
Students looking to spend tens of thousands of pounds with a given flying school are under a lot of pressure (from all angles) to spend their monies wisely. For that reason, a wise student will try to nail down every last cost as much as possible.
Therefore, where schools give inaccurate or conflicting information, they should firstly apologise for that error and then fix that error, not argue with the customer, or, worse still, tell that customer you don't want their business.
Over to you Trevor, don't just have your students speaking for you eh?
(I do love a good-natured battle of wits!)
Birky
Firstly guys, I have no doubt at all that EFT’s training is very good. That’s precisely why I was interested in going there in the first place, so you can all keep your hair on.
Secondly, however well-intentioned your support for EFT is, you are all mistaken with regard to the inaccuracies I have drawn your attention to. Look again...
Re: Accommodation on the APP program – included or not?
Frank, you’re quite right to say that at one point on the site (http://www.flyeft.com/app/financial_app.html) accommodation is marked as NOT included, what I am saying is that they have conflicting information on their website, something which they still haven't rectified as of 10.5.05 (a week after I told them about it). Look at http://www.flyeft.com/inside_eft/accommodation.html and you will see quite clearly that EFT say,
"Cadets enrolled on the Airline Pilot Programme™, who are working with EFT for a period of up to two years, live in our own student housing in nearby Vero Beach - a 10 minute drive from EFT's base. We built these houses (fifteen overall) as a response to previous students' dissatisfaction with the available accommodation at EFT. Erected in mid-2003, the houses are bright and spacious, each containing two en-suite bedrooms and a shared kitchen and living room. Bedrooms are suitably equipped with cable television, telephone and internet access. It's the perfect training and living environment while working with EFT. Rental of student houses is $575 per calendar month (or $25 per day), with an initial security deposit of $250. This price is included in the APP™ course, but is charged separately for Modular and FastTrack™ students."
The last line clearly says the accommodation is part-and-parcel of the APP fee, no?
Re: Multi-engine hours – included on the APP program or not?
Take a look at http://www.flyeft.com/library/app_schedule.pdf
At the bottom of that PDF document (Phase 5) it clearly implies that instructors with EFT's APP program can build up to 200 hours of ME time. This is not true, not unless you spend a further $10,000 with them and get a ME instructor rating. It is very misleading of them not to point this out clearly on their website.
Guys, my overall point is this. Anyone can make a mistake on a website. It's how you handle being corrected that matters. I would say EFT's reaction could be characterised as,
"avoid this smart alec, we don't want him working as an instructor for us because he looks at the small print too much".
Students looking to spend tens of thousands of pounds with a given flying school are under a lot of pressure (from all angles) to spend their monies wisely. For that reason, a wise student will try to nail down every last cost as much as possible.
Therefore, where schools give inaccurate or conflicting information, they should firstly apologise for that error and then fix that error, not argue with the customer, or, worse still, tell that customer you don't want their business.
Over to you Trevor, don't just have your students speaking for you eh?
(I do love a good-natured battle of wits!)
Birky
Last edited by Birky; 10th May 2005 at 17:17.
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what is now with the 200 me time must i spend another 10000$.
but i think the say up to 1500 hours so it can be 200 hours but it also can be less, right.
please write back that i know whats the matter.
thanks
but i think the say up to 1500 hours so it can be 200 hours but it also can be less, right.
please write back that i know whats the matter.
thanks
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huggybear - I agree I am here the website is a little misleading on the accommodation side of things.
With regards to the 200 hours multi instruction time yes a multi engine instructor rating would be required. NONE of the hours are guaranteed - neither is the place as an instructor - you could accumilate up to the given hours if you instructed for that long.
With regards to Trevor's email - there are a lot of APP students here currently and it would not surprise me if they are almost full for the year - I think you are reading far too much into the email.
With regards to the 200 hours multi instruction time yes a multi engine instructor rating would be required. NONE of the hours are guaranteed - neither is the place as an instructor - you could accumilate up to the given hours if you instructed for that long.
With regards to Trevor's email - there are a lot of APP students here currently and it would not surprise me if they are almost full for the year - I think you are reading far too much into the email.
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Dear ALL,
I am currently on the APP program at EFT, and I am VERY happy with them
1) Under the old APP scheme, accomodation was included for all students who booked before a certain date, regardless of your actual start date..... I believe that date was almost a year ago now.... Then however the structure of the APP programme changed and therefore students booking after July 2004 would not have accomodation included. This was obviously undated on the website and any descrepency on the website would be a genuie error, as the website is very detailed and provides alot of information in different places.... however its very clear on the website in the 'APP in Detail' section whats included and what's not......... And for those of you who are unclear or feel the website is unclear... why don't you email the school at [email protected]...... in my experince in over a year of dealing with ths school..... I've never had to wait more than 12 hours for a response... try that before mouthing off on this website.
2/ As for the multiengine hours.... the detail show potentially the maximum number of hours you can achieve, and YES there are many instructors there at the moment who are achieving this... As for this $10,000 figure..... not sure which part of the sky you pulled that out off!!!!
3/ As for ths school not taking more students..... isn't this a very good signal that the schhol is busy and is booked to capacity.... would you rather the school just continued to take students at an endless rate without been able to support the training properly. As far as I know ALL schools OXFORD, JEREZ, CABAIR... all have quota's of students which they can take.... why would EFT be any different? ? ? ?
William
I am currently on the APP program at EFT, and I am VERY happy with them
1) Under the old APP scheme, accomodation was included for all students who booked before a certain date, regardless of your actual start date..... I believe that date was almost a year ago now.... Then however the structure of the APP programme changed and therefore students booking after July 2004 would not have accomodation included. This was obviously undated on the website and any descrepency on the website would be a genuie error, as the website is very detailed and provides alot of information in different places.... however its very clear on the website in the 'APP in Detail' section whats included and what's not......... And for those of you who are unclear or feel the website is unclear... why don't you email the school at [email protected]...... in my experince in over a year of dealing with ths school..... I've never had to wait more than 12 hours for a response... try that before mouthing off on this website.
2/ As for the multiengine hours.... the detail show potentially the maximum number of hours you can achieve, and YES there are many instructors there at the moment who are achieving this... As for this $10,000 figure..... not sure which part of the sky you pulled that out off!!!!
3/ As for ths school not taking more students..... isn't this a very good signal that the schhol is busy and is booked to capacity.... would you rather the school just continued to take students at an endless rate without been able to support the training properly. As far as I know ALL schools OXFORD, JEREZ, CABAIR... all have quota's of students which they can take.... why would EFT be any different? ? ? ?
William
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EFT - APP
William (boredaccountant)
(Many thanks for the offer of advice re: EFT BTW...but as you can see, we're somewhat past that)
Like the others above, William, I don't doubt the sincerity of your support for EFT. However, to answer your three points:
- One, I already said that I don't mind mistakes being made on a website. What I mind is poor customer service and an arrogant attitude, two things I honestly believe EFT to be guilty of here. For what it's worth William, I DID contact them to clarify all these points. I'm only 'mouthing off' (as you put it) because I believe bad customer service, misleading information and arrogance should be highlighted to fellow PPRUNERS, before they shell out their hard-earned cash.
- Two, you say you are enrolled on the APP program and seem to be implying that the multi-engine hours shown on the PDF breakdown ARE achievable without paying any more than the standard fee. If that is what you're saying then you're WRONG old boy, sorry. Ask Trevor yourself.
The APP program is a 'single-engine APP' unless you specifically add an MEI rating to it for around £5000/$10,000 extra (and those really are Trevor Brackston's own words William so that's the "part of the sky I pulled it from")
- Three, I agree that there's nothing wrong with a school being popular. However, if being 'popular' makes them think they don't need to keep a high standard of customer service then they certainly don't deserve to survive any future downturn.
What goes around always comes around. Having run my own business I know the value of a happy customer. I also know that an unhappy customer will tell at least ten people about an example of bad service.
Good luck with your flying nonetheless,
Birky
(Many thanks for the offer of advice re: EFT BTW...but as you can see, we're somewhat past that)
Like the others above, William, I don't doubt the sincerity of your support for EFT. However, to answer your three points:
- One, I already said that I don't mind mistakes being made on a website. What I mind is poor customer service and an arrogant attitude, two things I honestly believe EFT to be guilty of here. For what it's worth William, I DID contact them to clarify all these points. I'm only 'mouthing off' (as you put it) because I believe bad customer service, misleading information and arrogance should be highlighted to fellow PPRUNERS, before they shell out their hard-earned cash.
- Two, you say you are enrolled on the APP program and seem to be implying that the multi-engine hours shown on the PDF breakdown ARE achievable without paying any more than the standard fee. If that is what you're saying then you're WRONG old boy, sorry. Ask Trevor yourself.
The APP program is a 'single-engine APP' unless you specifically add an MEI rating to it for around £5000/$10,000 extra (and those really are Trevor Brackston's own words William so that's the "part of the sky I pulled it from")
- Three, I agree that there's nothing wrong with a school being popular. However, if being 'popular' makes them think they don't need to keep a high standard of customer service then they certainly don't deserve to survive any future downturn.
What goes around always comes around. Having run my own business I know the value of a happy customer. I also know that an unhappy customer will tell at least ten people about an example of bad service.
Good luck with your flying nonetheless,
Birky
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Birky....
I am slightly confused here..... Its just that your NOT actually a customer of EFT.... or any other flight training organisation I would imagine... just another wannabe who made a query.
And as a chartered Accountant, be rest assured I can count and I know exactly what my training is costing and what's included and whats not, so PLEASE do not worry that i'll be in for a shock....
And as for your comment
' Lord save us from flying-school websites with poor information, and flying schools who don't appear to want anyone's business..'
Considering that your are interested in an ab Inito training its clear that you have never been at a flight training organisation..... therefore I think its a bit early for you to be seeking salvation... wouldn't you agree? ? ......also with regard to flight schools with poor information.... please send me a web address with more information.... or at LEAST equal information ro www.flyeft.com..... I think i'll be waiting for a while....
William
I am slightly confused here..... Its just that your NOT actually a customer of EFT.... or any other flight training organisation I would imagine... just another wannabe who made a query.
And as a chartered Accountant, be rest assured I can count and I know exactly what my training is costing and what's included and whats not, so PLEASE do not worry that i'll be in for a shock....
And as for your comment
' Lord save us from flying-school websites with poor information, and flying schools who don't appear to want anyone's business..'
Considering that your are interested in an ab Inito training its clear that you have never been at a flight training organisation..... therefore I think its a bit early for you to be seeking salvation... wouldn't you agree? ? ......also with regard to flight schools with poor information.... please send me a web address with more information.... or at LEAST equal information ro www.flyeft.com..... I think i'll be waiting for a while....
William
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No change yet
The information I highlighted is STILL incorrect on their website, even after another week has gone by.
Most businesses worry enough about customers noticing errors on their websites to actually get off their arses and fix them. Not so with EFT apparently. Doesn't that worry anyone? Are they as lax with other matters, training manuals etc, I wonder...
Perhaps it's just me being a grumpy old stickler for detail. Maybe I should get used to the idea that flying schools like EFT are exempt from normal business practices?
------------------------
Most businesses worry enough about customers noticing errors on their websites to actually get off their arses and fix them. Not so with EFT apparently. Doesn't that worry anyone? Are they as lax with other matters, training manuals etc, I wonder...
Perhaps it's just me being a grumpy old stickler for detail. Maybe I should get used to the idea that flying schools like EFT are exempt from normal business practices?
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Birky,
Firstly, let me introduce myself. I am currently a senior instructor at EFT and I have been with them for approximately 18 months. Although not a graduate of the APP program I did obtain my Flight Instructor and FAA ratings through EFT.
With reference to your first post I do believe you are reading too much into Trevor's email. I believe that Trevor was just being honest with you as he is with all potential customers. Don't take it personally.
As a business owner yourself I am sure you are aware of the importance of your staff. Through the APP program EFT is able to build a solid team of instructors that are committed to high standards of training and that fit the structure and environment of EFT. Surely it is the right of any management to pre-select potential team members. In the case of EFT that process is continually ongoing, from the point or your application and all through your training. It is one of the many reasons why EFT is successful and has survived difficult times in the aviation training industry.
Not everybody is suited to the APP program, not everybody is suited to EFT. Facts that are not the responsibility of EFT. It is unfortunate that your initial experience with EFT was not a positive one, we are unable to satisfy everyone.
Also, thank you for your concerns over the website, the errors you pointed out have been highlighted to the CFI and the site will be adjusted accordingly.
Next point - working as an instructor at EFT. The two year program where you will be working as an instructor is one of continual development. The opportunity is there for you to develop from a PPL instructor to a ME/IR instructor. This is dependent on two things, your desire to do it and commercial viability. Trevor is committed to giving all his students and instructors the best possible start to their aviation career, it is the main driving force behind the business. He genuinely believes in his product and will afford every assistance possible to help people achieve their goals. An instructors progression is managed on an individual basis and all opportunities will be open to you. It is not viable to quote for this as part of the APP as different people will choose different development paths.
Be careful about who you call arrogant. Arrogance breads complacency and complacency breads poor standards. I think the responses you received form current and former EFT students highlights we are definitely not arrogant. Thank you to those individuals for their positive comments about EFT. All of the instructors at EFT work long hours 6 days a week for the benefit of the students. Yes, we gain experience and hours, but instructing is something you have to commit to, it is not just about counting time.
Lastly, I would like to offer you some advice. The process of finding a training provider is difficult and sometimes frustrating as there are a lot of options and a lot of conflicting opinions. Take your time, do your research and make a choice that is personally right for you. A difficult decision, but be sure that you are comfortable with the company you choose and don't hand over all your money before you get there. If you need some advice on becoming a pilot/instructor, then feel free to drop me an email. I will be happy to share my experiences with you.
Remember the World isn't perfect, so accept it. Stop whining, leave this forum for people with genuine questions about training and get on with it.
Mark Collins.
Firstly, let me introduce myself. I am currently a senior instructor at EFT and I have been with them for approximately 18 months. Although not a graduate of the APP program I did obtain my Flight Instructor and FAA ratings through EFT.
With reference to your first post I do believe you are reading too much into Trevor's email. I believe that Trevor was just being honest with you as he is with all potential customers. Don't take it personally.
As a business owner yourself I am sure you are aware of the importance of your staff. Through the APP program EFT is able to build a solid team of instructors that are committed to high standards of training and that fit the structure and environment of EFT. Surely it is the right of any management to pre-select potential team members. In the case of EFT that process is continually ongoing, from the point or your application and all through your training. It is one of the many reasons why EFT is successful and has survived difficult times in the aviation training industry.
Not everybody is suited to the APP program, not everybody is suited to EFT. Facts that are not the responsibility of EFT. It is unfortunate that your initial experience with EFT was not a positive one, we are unable to satisfy everyone.
Also, thank you for your concerns over the website, the errors you pointed out have been highlighted to the CFI and the site will be adjusted accordingly.
Next point - working as an instructor at EFT. The two year program where you will be working as an instructor is one of continual development. The opportunity is there for you to develop from a PPL instructor to a ME/IR instructor. This is dependent on two things, your desire to do it and commercial viability. Trevor is committed to giving all his students and instructors the best possible start to their aviation career, it is the main driving force behind the business. He genuinely believes in his product and will afford every assistance possible to help people achieve their goals. An instructors progression is managed on an individual basis and all opportunities will be open to you. It is not viable to quote for this as part of the APP as different people will choose different development paths.
Be careful about who you call arrogant. Arrogance breads complacency and complacency breads poor standards. I think the responses you received form current and former EFT students highlights we are definitely not arrogant. Thank you to those individuals for their positive comments about EFT. All of the instructors at EFT work long hours 6 days a week for the benefit of the students. Yes, we gain experience and hours, but instructing is something you have to commit to, it is not just about counting time.
Lastly, I would like to offer you some advice. The process of finding a training provider is difficult and sometimes frustrating as there are a lot of options and a lot of conflicting opinions. Take your time, do your research and make a choice that is personally right for you. A difficult decision, but be sure that you are comfortable with the company you choose and don't hand over all your money before you get there. If you need some advice on becoming a pilot/instructor, then feel free to drop me an email. I will be happy to share my experiences with you.
Remember the World isn't perfect, so accept it. Stop whining, leave this forum for people with genuine questions about training and get on with it.
Mark Collins.
Last edited by Mark Collins; 16th May 2005 at 21:25.
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Splendid stuff Mark,
But.
Is the site misleading and confusing for someone trying to make a serious decision involving a vast sum of money?
Is it not a simple thing to edit a website?
Isn't this exactly what PPRuNe is for - cutting through the hype and spin?
Shouldn't the thinking PPRuNer just discount your post as puff, guff and bluster until a childishly simple job is done on the website?
That is the crux of this issue - everything else is excuses and defensive posturing.
I know Trevor, I like Trevor. He's the gifted instructor and brave soul who sent Mrs Towers solo so no axe to grind other than ensuring clear, concise and truthful information for wannabees from all FTO's.
Regards
Rob Lloyd
But.
Is the site misleading and confusing for someone trying to make a serious decision involving a vast sum of money?
Is it not a simple thing to edit a website?
Isn't this exactly what PPRuNe is for - cutting through the hype and spin?
Shouldn't the thinking PPRuNer just discount your post as puff, guff and bluster until a childishly simple job is done on the website?
That is the crux of this issue - everything else is excuses and defensive posturing.
I know Trevor, I like Trevor. He's the gifted instructor and brave soul who sent Mrs Towers solo so no axe to grind other than ensuring clear, concise and truthful information for wannabees from all FTO's.
Regards
Rob Lloyd
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What a shame...
I must thank Mark Collins from EFT for responding to my concerns about EFT's website errors. I look forward to seeing them rectified for the benefit of all future APP applicants.
I also appreciate his offer of advice with my flying training as well as the relatively conciliatory tone in most of his text.
However, it is an enormous shame that Mark Collins ended his post with the suggestion that I should stop 'whining' and that I should 'leave this forum for people with genuine questions about training'. In one sentence, he has compounded the very accusation I made in the first place; that EFT appear to have an arrogant attitude to applicants. I mean, why not simply apologise for the website error and for my perception of poor customer service (whether mis-interpreted or not) and leave it at that?
And just in case fellow PPRuNers wonder why I made the fuss to begin with, here's a reminder...
- ACTUAL accommodation costs for 15 months at $575/mnth = $8625
- ACTUAL cost of achieving the indicated 200 hours of ME time = $10,000
- Total discrepancy from the published charges = $18,625
All that said, like most of you, I think this thread has probably now run its natural course. I don't really have much more to add to Rob Lloyd's excellent post.
Birky
PS: And there was me thinking that the world was perfect Mark, thanks for putting me straight!
I also appreciate his offer of advice with my flying training as well as the relatively conciliatory tone in most of his text.
However, it is an enormous shame that Mark Collins ended his post with the suggestion that I should stop 'whining' and that I should 'leave this forum for people with genuine questions about training'. In one sentence, he has compounded the very accusation I made in the first place; that EFT appear to have an arrogant attitude to applicants. I mean, why not simply apologise for the website error and for my perception of poor customer service (whether mis-interpreted or not) and leave it at that?
And just in case fellow PPRuNers wonder why I made the fuss to begin with, here's a reminder...
- ACTUAL accommodation costs for 15 months at $575/mnth = $8625
- ACTUAL cost of achieving the indicated 200 hours of ME time = $10,000
- Total discrepancy from the published charges = $18,625
All that said, like most of you, I think this thread has probably now run its natural course. I don't really have much more to add to Rob Lloyd's excellent post.
Birky
PS: And there was me thinking that the world was perfect Mark, thanks for putting me straight!