NOTAM site 'upgrade'
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rotorcraig,
Any chance you have copies of these briefs (paper or electronic) that you could email/fax to me?
Don't forget our meeting is this coming Friday - let us have your thoughts, both good (speed increases) and bad (you name it)
Any chance you have copies of these briefs (paper or electronic) that you could email/fax to me?
Don't forget our meeting is this coming Friday - let us have your thoughts, both good (speed increases) and bad (you name it)
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RotorCraig's problem
I have had a look into this and it appears that the site will allow you to set the Departure and Arrival aerodromes the same on a Narrow Route Brief. However if you do so it will NOT return any en-route info.
If however you put a second location in, either in the route as RotorCraig did or by specifying different AD's then the en-route info does appear.
An easy way to reproduce this is to set a narrow route EGHN (Sandown) to EGHJ (Bembridge) which is all of 3 miles. You will find you get the en-route. If however you set EGHN to EGHN DCT you get no en-route.
Clearly this has the potential for a serious incident and I have flagged the problem up to Phil Bate at AIS.
Mike
If however you put a second location in, either in the route as RotorCraig did or by specifying different AD's then the en-route info does appear.
An easy way to reproduce this is to set a narrow route EGHN (Sandown) to EGHJ (Bembridge) which is all of 3 miles. You will find you get the en-route. If however you set EGHN to EGHN DCT you get no en-route.
Clearly this has the potential for a serious incident and I have flagged the problem up to Phil Bate at AIS.
Mike
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I don't know whether to laugh or cry. It seems that Mike Cross has (after three months of head-scratching) managed to solve my personal "missing NOTAM" problems, the results of which are quite widely known from my other posts.
When I first started using the new service, I'm was advised (by a member of NATS) that rather than entering three different flights for a triangular route, I could enter a single route starting and ending at the same place, with the other two airfields listed as alternates and appropriate turning points. It now transpires that this can eliminate the "en-route" information about, for example, airshows....
I wonder if this is the reason behind many of the other "missing NOTAM" reports??? Even if it is not the cause of all the reports, given that an awful lot of PPL flying is "local area and return to base" it could easily account for a reasonably large number of the reports.
I have to agree with Mike's recommendation that this is a very serious bug and must be addressed with some urgency. Thanks to Mike for spotting this and alerting users.
Yours slightly relieved,
MD.
When I first started using the new service, I'm was advised (by a member of NATS) that rather than entering three different flights for a triangular route, I could enter a single route starting and ending at the same place, with the other two airfields listed as alternates and appropriate turning points. It now transpires that this can eliminate the "en-route" information about, for example, airshows....
I wonder if this is the reason behind many of the other "missing NOTAM" reports??? Even if it is not the cause of all the reports, given that an awful lot of PPL flying is "local area and return to base" it could easily account for a reasonably large number of the reports.
I have to agree with Mike's recommendation that this is a very serious bug and must be addressed with some urgency. Thanks to Mike for spotting this and alerting users.
Yours slightly relieved,
MD.
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But this just highlights the failings of the systems design - the User Interface should not be so poor and ambiguous as to allow this confusion!
Talk about a ***** unprofessional design... I reckon they've been oversold on what the system actually does, versus what they'd like it to do, and have failed to do a good enough job of analysis to ascertain the degree to which functionality provided matches with the needs of the systems GA users. Just plain lazy - and s h i t e !
Talk about a ***** unprofessional design... I reckon they've been oversold on what the system actually does, versus what they'd like it to do, and have failed to do a good enough job of analysis to ascertain the degree to which functionality provided matches with the needs of the systems GA users. Just plain lazy - and s h i t e !
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I turned up an interesting bit of info today in the Thales website, it's a Press Release:-
@IS E-Services, a new solution from Thales Information Systems in partnership with Austro Control
Paris, 29/01/02
@IS E-Services (@ES), a new ANAIS module, is available allowing Civil Aviation Authorities (CAA) to offer briefing-services through Internet and Intranet based solution.
The @ES has been developed with the latest Internet technologies (Java Application Server, Web browser Client, Identification Systems...) and provides Self-Briefing and Home-Briefing features for private pilots and small aircraft operators. This new solution which includes a rich and powerful interface, suits non-specialist AIS (Aeronautical Information Services) users. It is also scalable and available on different platform allowing any aviation authority to provide such services.
Based on @ES, Austro Control will offer new Self-Briefing and Home-Briefing services starting in April 2002 to their customers.
This new solution is also being installed in Germany, South Africa, and United Kingdom, proving the strong position of THALES IS in the aeronautical environment.
If you look towards the end of Austro Control's bulletin at http://www.austrocontrol.at/ais/english/bulletin.html
you will find the following:-
AUSTRO CONTROL IS PRESENTLY TESTING A SELFBRIEFING-SYSTEM WHICH ALLOWS TO FILE ATC-FLIGHTPLANS AND TO OBTAIN A COMBINED AIS AND MET-BRIEFING FROM SELFBRIEFING STATIONS AT THE AUSTRIAN AIRPORTS. SOON THIS SERVICE WILL ALSO BE AVAILABLE VIA INTERNET. PILOTS ARE INVITED TO TESTRUN THE SYSTEM AND GIVE US THEIR FEEDBACK. FOR DETAILS CONTACT AIS/ARO.
mmmmm...... wonder why it's 7 months late?
Mike
@IS E-Services, a new solution from Thales Information Systems in partnership with Austro Control
Paris, 29/01/02
@IS E-Services (@ES), a new ANAIS module, is available allowing Civil Aviation Authorities (CAA) to offer briefing-services through Internet and Intranet based solution.
The @ES has been developed with the latest Internet technologies (Java Application Server, Web browser Client, Identification Systems...) and provides Self-Briefing and Home-Briefing features for private pilots and small aircraft operators. This new solution which includes a rich and powerful interface, suits non-specialist AIS (Aeronautical Information Services) users. It is also scalable and available on different platform allowing any aviation authority to provide such services.
Based on @ES, Austro Control will offer new Self-Briefing and Home-Briefing services starting in April 2002 to their customers.
This new solution is also being installed in Germany, South Africa, and United Kingdom, proving the strong position of THALES IS in the aeronautical environment.
If you look towards the end of Austro Control's bulletin at http://www.austrocontrol.at/ais/english/bulletin.html
you will find the following:-
AUSTRO CONTROL IS PRESENTLY TESTING A SELFBRIEFING-SYSTEM WHICH ALLOWS TO FILE ATC-FLIGHTPLANS AND TO OBTAIN A COMBINED AIS AND MET-BRIEFING FROM SELFBRIEFING STATIONS AT THE AUSTRIAN AIRPORTS. SOON THIS SERVICE WILL ALSO BE AVAILABLE VIA INTERNET. PILOTS ARE INVITED TO TESTRUN THE SYSTEM AND GIVE US THEIR FEEDBACK. FOR DETAILS CONTACT AIS/ARO.
mmmmm...... wonder why it's 7 months late?
Mike
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I wonder if [email protected] have seen this thread?
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AIS Changes
For an update on the meeting that took place at AIS Heathrow on Friday please go to:-
http://www.telecall.uk.com/ais/news!.htm
Then get back here and start posting!
Mike
http://www.telecall.uk.com/ais/news!.htm
Then get back here and start posting!
Mike
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Russell,
You and Mike need some kind of award for all that you're doing. If I wasn't an insufferably tight git I'd be putting my hand in my pocket right now.
It's a shame to see AIS so woefully unprepared and complacent for the meeting:
"Phil Bate accepted the criticism and explained that a workshop was being arranged between AIS and Thales AIS to address issues. They did not yet have a date fixed but he expected it to take place before Christmas.
AIS were pressed to give a timeframe for the work to be carried out but said that they were unable at present to do so.
It was pointed out to them that they had been in possession of the proposals for some time and they should have been able to come to the meeting with some idea of timescale.
Mike Cross asked Phil Bate what discussions had taken place between AIS and Thales IS with regard to the proposals. Phil Bate said that that was a matter for the Project Manager but he was not aware of any formal requests to Thales IS to carry out any investigation of the proposals.
Mike Cross pointed out that a copy of the proposals had been passed by him to Thales IS well in advance of the meeting."
And it doesn't sound like the raw data will be made available and the consulting with the CAA legal dept is just a fob off. Amazing, really, that this fellow Bate can talk about his worries with regard to liability issues if the raw data is made available. One wonders where he'd stand himself with relation to corporate manslaughter charges if somebody comes a cropper as a result of this shambles.
The complacency is breathtaking, but well done you chaps.
QDM
You and Mike need some kind of award for all that you're doing. If I wasn't an insufferably tight git I'd be putting my hand in my pocket right now.
It's a shame to see AIS so woefully unprepared and complacent for the meeting:
"Phil Bate accepted the criticism and explained that a workshop was being arranged between AIS and Thales AIS to address issues. They did not yet have a date fixed but he expected it to take place before Christmas.
AIS were pressed to give a timeframe for the work to be carried out but said that they were unable at present to do so.
It was pointed out to them that they had been in possession of the proposals for some time and they should have been able to come to the meeting with some idea of timescale.
Mike Cross asked Phil Bate what discussions had taken place between AIS and Thales IS with regard to the proposals. Phil Bate said that that was a matter for the Project Manager but he was not aware of any formal requests to Thales IS to carry out any investigation of the proposals.
Mike Cross pointed out that a copy of the proposals had been passed by him to Thales IS well in advance of the meeting."
And it doesn't sound like the raw data will be made available and the consulting with the CAA legal dept is just a fob off. Amazing, really, that this fellow Bate can talk about his worries with regard to liability issues if the raw data is made available. One wonders where he'd stand himself with relation to corporate manslaughter charges if somebody comes a cropper as a result of this shambles.
The complacency is breathtaking, but well done you chaps.
QDM
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QDM,
Exactly. The minutes paint a picture of bureaucratic obfuscation and complacency which would do credit to the writers of 'Yes, Minister'.
Depressing that our safety is reliant on the likes of Mr Bates. Thank goodness for rustle and mrcross, but perhaps they need to take some sharp implements along to the next meeting.
Exactly. The minutes paint a picture of bureaucratic obfuscation and complacency which would do credit to the writers of 'Yes, Minister'.
Depressing that our safety is reliant on the likes of Mr Bates. Thank goodness for rustle and mrcross, but perhaps they need to take some sharp implements along to the next meeting.
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Well done Mike & Russel, your efforts are appreciated.
I am not shocked by the minutes though... it will take time. I think we all know plenty of organisations (even some well funded IT groups within some large investment banks I could name!) where projects go wrong, take a lot of time to set right, and yes people come to meetings not fully prepared!
As irksome as it may seem, rather than pour scorn onto this particular hapless / incompetent (strike out which ever emotive word you prefer to - it makes no difference) lot, the more productive way forward in my view is to recognise that it will have been difficult for them to have come forward to admit their mistakes and/or weaknesses; and that it is a very good sign that they have engaged at all with us as outsiders (ok, customers!)... it would have been easier for them to refuse the meeting and just issue statements that they were dealing with it!
So I say lets not scare them away from the table, lets be thankful that M&R are energetic enough to engage on our behalf, and thankful that the regulator too hasn't hesitated to get involved. Who knows what pressures these poor b*ggers at the coalface may be under in terms of lack of budget, lack of training, lack of expertise, or whatever.
I know the need for blame is strong - I feel it too as this fiasco has exposed safety issues and could have been avoided with better planing and better software than that which oozed from somewhere in the bowels of Thales [yuk!] To see how it could/should be done for contrast, take a look at the facilities provided in Airservices Australia Brieifing Service which includes a full area listing combining both wx and NOTAMS (this example is for the southern half of NSW): http://www.airservices.gov.au/brief/.../avreq?area=21 - an easy "one-stop-shop" for all the briefing info needed for a flight within that region (vast - at least as big as the UK!).
But my main point is that even though what has delivered to us been is sub-standard and frustrating in the exteme, I believe that we have to take a positive attitude at this stage in order to have people do what we want them to do. Its M & R's positive and constructive engagement that seems to have made progress thus far - lets not take the easy route of just pointing out the obvious which I fear may be counter-productive.
And no, I don't work for NATS
I am not shocked by the minutes though... it will take time. I think we all know plenty of organisations (even some well funded IT groups within some large investment banks I could name!) where projects go wrong, take a lot of time to set right, and yes people come to meetings not fully prepared!
As irksome as it may seem, rather than pour scorn onto this particular hapless / incompetent (strike out which ever emotive word you prefer to - it makes no difference) lot, the more productive way forward in my view is to recognise that it will have been difficult for them to have come forward to admit their mistakes and/or weaknesses; and that it is a very good sign that they have engaged at all with us as outsiders (ok, customers!)... it would have been easier for them to refuse the meeting and just issue statements that they were dealing with it!
So I say lets not scare them away from the table, lets be thankful that M&R are energetic enough to engage on our behalf, and thankful that the regulator too hasn't hesitated to get involved. Who knows what pressures these poor b*ggers at the coalface may be under in terms of lack of budget, lack of training, lack of expertise, or whatever.
I know the need for blame is strong - I feel it too as this fiasco has exposed safety issues and could have been avoided with better planing and better software than that which oozed from somewhere in the bowels of Thales [yuk!] To see how it could/should be done for contrast, take a look at the facilities provided in Airservices Australia Brieifing Service which includes a full area listing combining both wx and NOTAMS (this example is for the southern half of NSW): http://www.airservices.gov.au/brief/.../avreq?area=21 - an easy "one-stop-shop" for all the briefing info needed for a flight within that region (vast - at least as big as the UK!).
But my main point is that even though what has delivered to us been is sub-standard and frustrating in the exteme, I believe that we have to take a positive attitude at this stage in order to have people do what we want them to do. Its M & R's positive and constructive engagement that seems to have made progress thus far - lets not take the easy route of just pointing out the obvious which I fear may be counter-productive.
And no, I don't work for NATS
Last edited by Aussie Andy; 19th Nov 2002 at 08:59.
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It's a very frustrating situation for all of us. Having been closely involved I hope this will shed some light.
AIS bought the software as an "off the shelf" solution from Thales IS. I understand that Phil Bate was not the manager of UK AIS at the time that decision was made.
We know that the bulk of the problems are to do with availability (outages) and the results that are obtained from the software.
Thales IS should be roundly condemned for having provided software that is still not working properly three months AFTER it went live. (Any bugs should have been sorted out BEFORE going live)
Anyone know a good way of exerting pressure on Thales IS?
Because the Project Manager declines to discuss anything with me and Thales IS, for resons of client confidentiality, cannot; I can only give you a fairly sketchy view but to me it looks like this.
AIS are not computer experts and certainly can't set all this up on their own. Thales IS are the software vendors and they and NATS IT department are responsible between them for providing and maintaining the hardware and software platform which AIS use to deliver the goods. That hardware and software platform has performed in a manner that is unsatisfactory to a significant proportion of users for over three months. That failure has to be the fault of NATS IT or Thales IS, or both of them.
AIS have overall responsibility for the project but don't have the in-house expertise themselves to fight their own corner. Their Project Manager actually works for one of their suppliers, which is not a situation that you would expect to see in normal business.
AIS certainly have overall responsibility but we won't see a significant breakthrough until NATS IT and Thales IS start delivering.
Mike
AIS bought the software as an "off the shelf" solution from Thales IS. I understand that Phil Bate was not the manager of UK AIS at the time that decision was made.
We know that the bulk of the problems are to do with availability (outages) and the results that are obtained from the software.
Thales IS should be roundly condemned for having provided software that is still not working properly three months AFTER it went live. (Any bugs should have been sorted out BEFORE going live)
Anyone know a good way of exerting pressure on Thales IS?
Because the Project Manager declines to discuss anything with me and Thales IS, for resons of client confidentiality, cannot; I can only give you a fairly sketchy view but to me it looks like this.
AIS are not computer experts and certainly can't set all this up on their own. Thales IS are the software vendors and they and NATS IT department are responsible between them for providing and maintaining the hardware and software platform which AIS use to deliver the goods. That hardware and software platform has performed in a manner that is unsatisfactory to a significant proportion of users for over three months. That failure has to be the fault of NATS IT or Thales IS, or both of them.
AIS have overall responsibility for the project but don't have the in-house expertise themselves to fight their own corner. Their Project Manager actually works for one of their suppliers, which is not a situation that you would expect to see in normal business.
AIS certainly have overall responsibility but we won't see a significant breakthrough until NATS IT and Thales IS start delivering.
Mike
Last edited by Mike Cross; 19th Nov 2002 at 21:44.
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QDM
>>And it doesn't sound like the raw data will be made available and the >>consulting with the CAA legal dept is just a fob off.
I agree that Nats are probably expecting the legal angle to delay things. However do not give up on this. The regulator, John Gentleman, was well fired up to get this done ASAP. His own words were “I will get this started first thing Monday”.
Remember 95% of the raw data is already available via a number of other sources, including the US military. We have supplied John Gentleman with sample s/w for him to play with so he can get a feel for what is possible with a modern user interface.
The number one request we received from pilots was to get NotamPlot/Pro working again. We need the raw data to do this and we will keep pushing to get it. Fortunately there does no appear to be any technical problem with the provision of the raw data, so our unhelpful friends at Nats IT and THALES IS should not be too much of an obstacle.
Help us keep up the pressure!
Rod
>>And it doesn't sound like the raw data will be made available and the >>consulting with the CAA legal dept is just a fob off.
I agree that Nats are probably expecting the legal angle to delay things. However do not give up on this. The regulator, John Gentleman, was well fired up to get this done ASAP. His own words were “I will get this started first thing Monday”.
Remember 95% of the raw data is already available via a number of other sources, including the US military. We have supplied John Gentleman with sample s/w for him to play with so he can get a feel for what is possible with a modern user interface.
The number one request we received from pilots was to get NotamPlot/Pro working again. We need the raw data to do this and we will keep pushing to get it. Fortunately there does no appear to be any technical problem with the provision of the raw data, so our unhelpful friends at Nats IT and THALES IS should not be too much of an obstacle.
Help us keep up the pressure!
Rod
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QDM
Any or all of the following;
http://www.nats.co.uk/operational/Op...il%2020021.pdf gives peoples names addresses and e-mails within NATS
Lodge a formal complaint with NATS, details at http://www.nats.co.uk/operational/Co...Ed2-Aug-02.pdf
Write to the Secretary of State for Transport, Alistair Darling or to your local MP http://www.parliament.uk/directories/directories.cfm also further details available from http://politics.guardian.co.uk/perso...,9379,,00.html
Write to Anne McIntosh, Shadow Minister in the Department of Transport http://politics.guardian.co.uk/perso...,-3830,00.html to give her ammunition. She has already asked a parliamentary question of the Department of Transport and written to the Chairman of the CAA. Her husband is a Director of Delta Airlines.
File an MOR if you think that the system is causing safety issues http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP382.pdf
Post comments or carry out any activity that is critical of NATS and/or Thales Information Systems for failing to have the system working properly three months after it went live.
And last but not least, my number one suggestion, right now. A politely worded letter, on paper, to John Gentleman, in support of the raw data download and NotamPro/Plot style presentation.
Details for John (the Regulator) are at; http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP723.pdf
Rod
Any or all of the following;
http://www.nats.co.uk/operational/Op...il%2020021.pdf gives peoples names addresses and e-mails within NATS
Lodge a formal complaint with NATS, details at http://www.nats.co.uk/operational/Co...Ed2-Aug-02.pdf
Write to the Secretary of State for Transport, Alistair Darling or to your local MP http://www.parliament.uk/directories/directories.cfm also further details available from http://politics.guardian.co.uk/perso...,9379,,00.html
Write to Anne McIntosh, Shadow Minister in the Department of Transport http://politics.guardian.co.uk/perso...,-3830,00.html to give her ammunition. She has already asked a parliamentary question of the Department of Transport and written to the Chairman of the CAA. Her husband is a Director of Delta Airlines.
File an MOR if you think that the system is causing safety issues http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP382.pdf
Post comments or carry out any activity that is critical of NATS and/or Thales Information Systems for failing to have the system working properly three months after it went live.
And last but not least, my number one suggestion, right now. A politely worded letter, on paper, to John Gentleman, in support of the raw data download and NotamPro/Plot style presentation.
Details for John (the Regulator) are at; http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP723.pdf
Rod
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Decoding ICAO... A SemiSolution for NotamPro
AltAIS (Logon Page)
Some of you may be aware of 'AltAIS', a simple web site I set up in September to help people get into the AIS more quickly, and even access the Area Briefings without JavaScript enabled (though you do still need cookies).
Well, over the last couple of days I've written another page that parses a given Notam to insert the latitude and longitude of each ICAO airfield code that it recognises.
A few Notams still slip the net, namely those about danger areas (I haven't found a source that gives their coordinates), En-Route Nav Aids (it is harder to decode these, as the idents could easily be confused with plain text), and the very few about other locations where no lat and long is given.
AltAIS NOTAM Parser
Once you have your Notam on screen from the AIS site, copy and paste the content into my 'Parser' page. Hit the 'PROCESS' button. Wait a couple of seconds for it to do its magic. Finally, copy the parsed Notam text from my page into NotamPro. Heypresto. Look at all those red blobs!!!
I have never used NotamPlot, so don't know if it works the same way. Le me know if a simple change will make the difference.
Some of you may be aware of 'AltAIS', a simple web site I set up in September to help people get into the AIS more quickly, and even access the Area Briefings without JavaScript enabled (though you do still need cookies).
Well, over the last couple of days I've written another page that parses a given Notam to insert the latitude and longitude of each ICAO airfield code that it recognises.
A few Notams still slip the net, namely those about danger areas (I haven't found a source that gives their coordinates), En-Route Nav Aids (it is harder to decode these, as the idents could easily be confused with plain text), and the very few about other locations where no lat and long is given.
AltAIS NOTAM Parser
Once you have your Notam on screen from the AIS site, copy and paste the content into my 'Parser' page. Hit the 'PROCESS' button. Wait a couple of seconds for it to do its magic. Finally, copy the parsed Notam text from my page into NotamPro. Heypresto. Look at all those red blobs!!!
I have never used NotamPlot, so don't know if it works the same way. Le me know if a simple change will make the difference.
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Before you all put pen to paper (or finger to keyboard) you may want to have a browse through some of this lot:
http://www.eurocontrol.int/ais/sympo..._symposium.htm
http://www.eurocontrol.int/ais/sympo...ease%20dgs.pdf
Extract from press release:
With the objective to achieve ever higher levels of safety, speakers from Europe and around the world confirmed that Aeronautical Information Services (AIS) users now needed high quality aeronautical information to be processed and delivered more quickly to the customer using electronic media. Other speakers outlined emerging technologies that are paving the way to new and innovative ways to originate, process, publish, integrate and use aeronautical information.
Dusty_B
The danger area, navaid &tc. co-ords and radius of influence are in the Q-Line as well.
http://www.eurocontrol.int/ais/sympo..._symposium.htm
http://www.eurocontrol.int/ais/sympo...ease%20dgs.pdf
Extract from press release:
With the objective to achieve ever higher levels of safety, speakers from Europe and around the world confirmed that Aeronautical Information Services (AIS) users now needed high quality aeronautical information to be processed and delivered more quickly to the customer using electronic media. Other speakers outlined emerging technologies that are paving the way to new and innovative ways to originate, process, publish, integrate and use aeronautical information.
Dusty_B
The danger area, navaid &tc. co-ords and radius of influence are in the Q-Line as well.
Last edited by rustle; 20th Nov 2002 at 14:50.
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