Females only!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: england
Age: 28
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Females only!
I'm doing an extended project on Women in Aviation specifically “How are women represented in the aviation industry and is this regarded positively?” and I am researching the topic. (This includes mechanics, air traffic controllers as well as pilots)I have found lots of male opinions on the subject from war times and some on present day. Many are negative with reasons such as 'women aren't capable of flying' to 'women should be stay at home mothers'. Obviously there are lots of positive opinions as well.
But, I want to know what women think about women flying. Have you found any problems in achieving your role of a pilot (if you've done that) or prejudice in training or actually in your job? Are males and females equally supportive of you? What were your views of the aviation industry before you joined and were they proved right? Do you think women in the 1930's and during the war had positive impacts on the aviation industry? Is there anything else you'd like to say that may help with my question?
I guess males can answer too, if they feel so inclined.
Thanks
But, I want to know what women think about women flying. Have you found any problems in achieving your role of a pilot (if you've done that) or prejudice in training or actually in your job? Are males and females equally supportive of you? What were your views of the aviation industry before you joined and were they proved right? Do you think women in the 1930's and during the war had positive impacts on the aviation industry? Is there anything else you'd like to say that may help with my question?
I guess males can answer too, if they feel so inclined.
Thanks
Last edited by Hannah222; 11th Dec 2012 at 13:26.
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Mare Imbrium
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hannah, you don't need the apostrophe. It should be "Females only!"
Anyway good luck with the project. My experience is that aviation is one industry where females are more likely to be accepted than average - always there will be exceptions to that of course. Though attitudes across many sectors have improved enormously in the last 30 years - so you will need to judge the opinions you get in terms of the time scale to which they apply.
My opinion can be safely ignored if you like cos I'm male and old school
H
Anyway good luck with the project. My experience is that aviation is one industry where females are more likely to be accepted than average - always there will be exceptions to that of course. Though attitudes across many sectors have improved enormously in the last 30 years - so you will need to judge the opinions you get in terms of the time scale to which they apply.
My opinion can be safely ignored if you like cos I'm male and old school
H
Hannah222, I recommend that you get in touch with the British Women Pilots Association at [email protected] .
A very enthusiastic group who would undoubtedly point you in the right direction.
A very enthusiastic group who would undoubtedly point you in the right direction.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hannah,
The person who has most impressed me in my career was a former ATA pilot, Joan Hughes. I spent a fantastic summer being trained by her in PA28s for an Assistant Instructor's Rating. She was inspirational - simple as that.
Years later, I had occasion to fly with, and carry out simulator check/refreshers on several female First Officers on long-haul jet aircraft. In my own experience, the lady pilots were universally professional, personable, and technically very good indeed. Maybe my two fleets were lucky, but I heard much the same from pals on shorthaul fleets.
Perhaps the ladies were so good because they had 'tried harder' to get into the business - I don't know. Heaven knows, most of us blokes found it difficult.
The most common fear I heard from older pilots before the first ladies arrived in the airline was that a woman of slight stature would be unable to 'hold' a heavy jet straight following an engine failure at rotation. Goodness knows how many times I saw that in the simulator, but I never saw a problem at all.
It is perhaps because of the ATA pilots, like Joan, that even the 'old' wartime pilots did not seem to be prejudiced in any way. My generation certainly were not (born 1950!
).
The person who has most impressed me in my career was a former ATA pilot, Joan Hughes. I spent a fantastic summer being trained by her in PA28s for an Assistant Instructor's Rating. She was inspirational - simple as that.
Years later, I had occasion to fly with, and carry out simulator check/refreshers on several female First Officers on long-haul jet aircraft. In my own experience, the lady pilots were universally professional, personable, and technically very good indeed. Maybe my two fleets were lucky, but I heard much the same from pals on shorthaul fleets.
Perhaps the ladies were so good because they had 'tried harder' to get into the business - I don't know. Heaven knows, most of us blokes found it difficult.
The most common fear I heard from older pilots before the first ladies arrived in the airline was that a woman of slight stature would be unable to 'hold' a heavy jet straight following an engine failure at rotation. Goodness knows how many times I saw that in the simulator, but I never saw a problem at all.
It is perhaps because of the ATA pilots, like Joan, that even the 'old' wartime pilots did not seem to be prejudiced in any way. My generation certainly were not (born 1950!
).
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: 7nm N of LARCK
Posts: 221
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ladies Love Taildraggers
All the lady instructors I’ve flown with over the years have been very good, both as pilots and for their ability to instruct.
Some of the ladies on this website are in the commercial side of aviation, although as the name suggest, that’s not the focus of the group.
Some of the ladies on this website are in the commercial side of aviation, although as the name suggest, that’s not the focus of the group.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Scotland
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aileron Drag mentioned the ATA - if you can find the TV documentary that was shown earlier in the year about their lady pilots, it's well worth a watch.
They showed astonishing skill - often single-handedly flying heavy bombers with no prior type training other than reading the handbook, often in marginal weather. Nearly as impressive is the modesty of those interviewed so many years later, who saw it as just "doing their bit". It's impossible to imagine racking up so many type in your logbook with so little conversion training, crew support etc these days. Humbling (and inspiring) stuff.
And from a modern perspective (I'm a bloke by the way!), the radio is a great leveller - you can tell if the pilot or ATC is male or female, but that's about it. You can't tell age or appearance, and you have no idea of skills - the person could have 50 hours or 5,000 hours experience, the pilot could be Captain or FO; the ATCO could be a trainee or have 30 years experience etc., so assumptions based on gender seem to be fortunately rare (at least at the operational end).
They showed astonishing skill - often single-handedly flying heavy bombers with no prior type training other than reading the handbook, often in marginal weather. Nearly as impressive is the modesty of those interviewed so many years later, who saw it as just "doing their bit". It's impossible to imagine racking up so many type in your logbook with so little conversion training, crew support etc these days. Humbling (and inspiring) stuff.
And from a modern perspective (I'm a bloke by the way!), the radio is a great leveller - you can tell if the pilot or ATC is male or female, but that's about it. You can't tell age or appearance, and you have no idea of skills - the person could have 50 hours or 5,000 hours experience, the pilot could be Captain or FO; the ATCO could be a trainee or have 30 years experience etc., so assumptions based on gender seem to be fortunately rare (at least at the operational end).
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: fort sheridan, il
Posts: 1,656
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
male here:
first off, what is an "assistant instructor rating"?
second...I've never flown with a woman pilot who was as good as the best men pilots
but...some were good pilots, just not great.
that doesn't mean there aren't great women pilots out there, I just haven't met one in 37 years of aviation.
oh, and I've flown with plenty of mediocre guy pilots too.
But there is one thing I do object to...when I see a woman get hired with "x" number of flying hours and needs to go through training 3 times, and a man with "2X" hours gets hired and only has to go through training once.
first off, what is an "assistant instructor rating"?
second...I've never flown with a woman pilot who was as good as the best men pilots
but...some were good pilots, just not great.
that doesn't mean there aren't great women pilots out there, I just haven't met one in 37 years of aviation.
oh, and I've flown with plenty of mediocre guy pilots too.
But there is one thing I do object to...when I see a woman get hired with "x" number of flying hours and needs to go through training 3 times, and a man with "2X" hours gets hired and only has to go through training once.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its a pre JAR British instructors rating which meant you had to be supervised and couldn't send student solo for the first time for circuits, nav or night.
They then after getting a certain number of hours did the course on teaching instruments then they sat a flights test and ground pratical teaching test and became full FI's with no restrictions and able to operate unsupervised.
They then after getting a certain number of hours did the course on teaching instruments then they sat a flights test and ground pratical teaching test and became full FI's with no restrictions and able to operate unsupervised.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In addition to the bwpa, I'd recommend speaking to the Royal Aeronautical Society. They recently ran an entire conference about excellence in all fields of aviation, almost exclusively attended by women.
Personally, I've always worked in male dominated environments and have never experienced a problem. I work hard and play hard, as simple as that. I've been lucky enough to do some pretty cool, pretty privileged flying in very male dominated arenas. But I don't think there should be "more women", just that those who really want to fly should be encouraged to get over any of their own preconceived ideas that they couldn't or shouldn't.
Fact is that a lot of women aren't interested, and genetically tend to be less strong in the skills that are required as a pilot. That tendency doesn't mean that everyone is that way inclined, in the same way as mathematics and computer science are male dominated as a result of the same tendencies. The world's first computer programmer was a woman and there are plenty of very fine female mathematicians, just not as many as men.
As for other female pilots, I respect them in the same way as I respect all pilots, on merit alone. If they've worked hard and know what they're doing, and fly with a professional attitude and true knowledge, that's great. If they make silly excuses for bad decisions / actions, or shirk responsibilities such as cleaning the aeroplane, refuelling or even getting them in and out of the hangar, then they gain less respect. But the same applies for men as for women.
I have several friends who are women pilots who I have the greatest admiration for. I also have several male pilot friends for whom I have similarly great respect and admiration. I consider myself lucky to be in this position. My best mate since high school is an engineer. I also know several pilots, mostly male, for whom I have much less respect. This is more often on the basis of testosterone fuelled decision making, which explains the more male representation of this group. Plus it should also be borne in mind that for every exceptional pilot, there are dozens of merely mediocre pilots. This is the case particularly in light aviation but even in commercial aviation there are very few truly awesome pilots. I don't consider myself to be one of them, although I always strive to be the very best that I can be.
I also have some light aircraft engineering experience and perform air/ground duties as well as Airfield Fire Service duties so I am aware that I'm probably not the most usual candidate. I have the same experience and feelings about colleagues in these fields as I do with pilots.
The main difference I find as a woman is that people tend to remember you more, simply because in a room full of men you're bound to stand out. This can work as both a positive and a negative.
Hope this helps.
Personally, I've always worked in male dominated environments and have never experienced a problem. I work hard and play hard, as simple as that. I've been lucky enough to do some pretty cool, pretty privileged flying in very male dominated arenas. But I don't think there should be "more women", just that those who really want to fly should be encouraged to get over any of their own preconceived ideas that they couldn't or shouldn't.
Fact is that a lot of women aren't interested, and genetically tend to be less strong in the skills that are required as a pilot. That tendency doesn't mean that everyone is that way inclined, in the same way as mathematics and computer science are male dominated as a result of the same tendencies. The world's first computer programmer was a woman and there are plenty of very fine female mathematicians, just not as many as men.
As for other female pilots, I respect them in the same way as I respect all pilots, on merit alone. If they've worked hard and know what they're doing, and fly with a professional attitude and true knowledge, that's great. If they make silly excuses for bad decisions / actions, or shirk responsibilities such as cleaning the aeroplane, refuelling or even getting them in and out of the hangar, then they gain less respect. But the same applies for men as for women.
I have several friends who are women pilots who I have the greatest admiration for. I also have several male pilot friends for whom I have similarly great respect and admiration. I consider myself lucky to be in this position. My best mate since high school is an engineer. I also know several pilots, mostly male, for whom I have much less respect. This is more often on the basis of testosterone fuelled decision making, which explains the more male representation of this group. Plus it should also be borne in mind that for every exceptional pilot, there are dozens of merely mediocre pilots. This is the case particularly in light aviation but even in commercial aviation there are very few truly awesome pilots. I don't consider myself to be one of them, although I always strive to be the very best that I can be.
I also have some light aircraft engineering experience and perform air/ground duties as well as Airfield Fire Service duties so I am aware that I'm probably not the most usual candidate. I have the same experience and feelings about colleagues in these fields as I do with pilots.
The main difference I find as a woman is that people tend to remember you more, simply because in a room full of men you're bound to stand out. This can work as both a positive and a negative.
Hope this helps.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mostly good!
Thirty years in this business and counting, so far only one really bad femail.
On the whole all ( but one) the women that I have worked with have been well above average both in professional skills and ease to work with, this includes a number of Avionic technicians and only one airframe & engine technician.
I wish the numbers were so good for the men, the worst of who had ego's the size of a small planet.
On the whole all ( but one) the women that I have worked with have been well above average both in professional skills and ease to work with, this includes a number of Avionic technicians and only one airframe & engine technician.
I wish the numbers were so good for the men, the worst of who had ego's the size of a small planet.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Male here;
I feel that any industry benefits from a mixed work force.
Mixed not as in 1:100 but 50:50.
And not in menial positions either, 50/50 across the board.
Even though I'm probably a chauvinist pig deep inside I hate that 'men-only workplace' environment.
I feel that any industry benefits from a mixed work force.
Mixed not as in 1:100 but 50:50.
And not in menial positions either, 50/50 across the board.
Even though I'm probably a chauvinist pig deep inside I hate that 'men-only workplace' environment.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: england
Age: 28
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Guys! Taybird, quite sure you were the only female response so far!
I do maths and physics a level and both have about 4 girls to 12 guys and at the airfield today I was one of 2 females so yeah maybe girls are usually less interested in the maths side of it.
I've been tallying male to female atc conversations (from America as we can't listen here?) and the number of males speaking on the radio is probably 10 times more every time! Though quite a few female air traffic controllers (apparently we're good at multitasking!). How about engineers? I'm guessing still very male dominated?
Those who say they've had excellent female company, is that because women have to be so much better than men to get a job in the first place, so no average women pilots? or because we're just good?
I read a bit about the ww2 pilots, WASPS and ATA, and how they were flying heavier aircraft all the time but then one general said they couldn't fly transatlantic and that stopped women progressing aircraft type.
Do you really think 50.50 is the best thing? I think so.
Also, would you find women distracting in the cockpit for 8 hours? One comment from March on here and I think I'm ignoring him!
Oh and Heston, I don't think I have an apostrophe, and AP thanks I'll repost somewhere else.
Any more girls on pprune?
I do maths and physics a level and both have about 4 girls to 12 guys and at the airfield today I was one of 2 females so yeah maybe girls are usually less interested in the maths side of it.
I've been tallying male to female atc conversations (from America as we can't listen here?) and the number of males speaking on the radio is probably 10 times more every time! Though quite a few female air traffic controllers (apparently we're good at multitasking!). How about engineers? I'm guessing still very male dominated?
Those who say they've had excellent female company, is that because women have to be so much better than men to get a job in the first place, so no average women pilots? or because we're just good?
I read a bit about the ww2 pilots, WASPS and ATA, and how they were flying heavier aircraft all the time but then one general said they couldn't fly transatlantic and that stopped women progressing aircraft type.
Do you really think 50.50 is the best thing? I think so.
Also, would you find women distracting in the cockpit for 8 hours? One comment from March on here and I think I'm ignoring him!
Oh and Heston, I don't think I have an apostrophe, and AP thanks I'll repost somewhere else.
Any more girls on pprune?
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I’ve been debating whether to reply to this thread or not, I’mnever really sure how to respond. I have a background inengineering/physics and yes it was very male dominated when I started off butapart from one ******** professor I don’t ever recall gender being an issue.
Same with flying, I happen to have a male instructor, myhusband happened to have a female one. I’ve never really noticed that mybreasts* or lack of Y chromosome ever being an issue, for me or the people atthe flying school.
Questions like this make me a little bit sad. I’d kind ofassumed that things have moved on to the point where such questions are noteven relevant any more. Do pilots really judge someone by gender any more? Youneed a certain degree of intelligence to be involved in the aviation industryas a pilot or engineer etc. Usually** that precludes most irrational prejudices,in fact I’d go as far as to say this is one of the few industries where it is blatantlyobvious if you are any good or not. I suspect that is the real yardstick bywhich people are judged regardless of gender. Or am I just wildly naïve andoptimistic ?
* I did once land so hard I bounced my wire out my bra andnear stabbed myself in the eye!
** Usual caveats apply!
Same with flying, I happen to have a male instructor, myhusband happened to have a female one. I’ve never really noticed that mybreasts* or lack of Y chromosome ever being an issue, for me or the people atthe flying school.
Questions like this make me a little bit sad. I’d kind ofassumed that things have moved on to the point where such questions are noteven relevant any more. Do pilots really judge someone by gender any more? Youneed a certain degree of intelligence to be involved in the aviation industryas a pilot or engineer etc. Usually** that precludes most irrational prejudices,in fact I’d go as far as to say this is one of the few industries where it is blatantlyobvious if you are any good or not. I suspect that is the real yardstick bywhich people are judged regardless of gender. Or am I just wildly naïve andoptimistic ?
* I did once land so hard I bounced my wire out my bra andnear stabbed myself in the eye!
** Usual caveats apply!
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Livin de island life
Posts: 479
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've never been made to feel anything less than welcome in any part of aviation.
My background is engineering and computer programming so I'm well used to male dominated environments and don't mind a bit of banter. Mostly I run the business/financial side of an aviation business but I'm licenced to fly everything on the fleet (even if I don't do it as much as I'd like) and find it helps to understand the basics.
Pilots and aircraft owners are always pleased when anyone (at all) shows an interest in their hobby/job/beloved toy and I've been offered some great flights in lovely aircraft all over the world.
I've met female pilots and female engineers but can't think of any female avionics technicians........I'm sure there are some out there. Female aircraft dealers, traffic controllers, line staff.......
I don't think there's any malice in the low numbers of females in aviation; it's just that most women never consider it an option. The more we introduce ladies to aircraft the more of them come to work with us.
My background is engineering and computer programming so I'm well used to male dominated environments and don't mind a bit of banter. Mostly I run the business/financial side of an aviation business but I'm licenced to fly everything on the fleet (even if I don't do it as much as I'd like) and find it helps to understand the basics.
Pilots and aircraft owners are always pleased when anyone (at all) shows an interest in their hobby/job/beloved toy and I've been offered some great flights in lovely aircraft all over the world.
I've met female pilots and female engineers but can't think of any female avionics technicians........I'm sure there are some out there. Female aircraft dealers, traffic controllers, line staff.......
I don't think there's any malice in the low numbers of females in aviation; it's just that most women never consider it an option. The more we introduce ladies to aircraft the more of them come to work with us.