Newbie looking to upgrade to Cirrus
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
Above The Clouds
Has had a 7-day forum ban imposed to encourage him / her to play nicely next time. All take note, please.
SD
Has had a 7-day forum ban imposed to encourage him / her to play nicely next time. All take note, please.
SD
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Originally Posted by ford cortina
How pray tell do you do that on a Glass Cockpit, with state of the art GPS?
fwjc, I don't have my class 1 but I have been told by my AME and a consultant at Gatwick that I should be fine for that. It would be the first thing I do before studying for my ATPL exams, but for now I will be hour building as even if I don't end up going commercial I do want to be instrument rated (which itself needs a number of hours post PPL).
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Taxistaxing, I am not yet certain I want to fly commercially. However, I am planning my flying on the basis that I will do the CPL to be on the safe side.
I am not sure what you are saying in your post - are you saying that I should learn in an aircraft that is similar to what I will fly for the CPL so that I am used to it and therefore find it easier to fly, or that I should find an aircraft that is more difficult to fly therefore preparing me better for the more demanding challenges during CPL training? If it is the latter I still maintain flying something like a Cirrus over a PA28 or similar is ideal, considering it is more difficult to fly and demands a higher level of accuracy?
Unless your point is that I'd simply be tempted to just use autopilot and GPS.
I went up with one of the CPL instructors at my local school shortly before starting my hour building for a few pointers and actually 100 hours isn't that much time when you consider what is required. It's very much 'back to basics' flying. His suggestions were: stay local; practise diversions until you can go up without a plog and 'divert' every leg of you route; and practise circuits and general flying being really brutal with yourself about maintaining headings, accurate height in the circuit etc. That seems to have been born out by the advice posted on this thread.
Also - yes you can switch the GPS off (although I expect the Cirrus system is very integrated into the avionics so are you sure it's that straightforward?). Just don't underestimate the "comfort blanket" effect of having a GPS in the aircraft. If you have nothing but the very basics it actually improves your situational awareness and you'll spend more time looking out of the aircraft (which is what DR navigation is supposed to be about).
At my flying club, on group flyout days, I'm the only one getting out my whizzwheel and chart rather than an iPad (I get a lot of stick for it too, and have been accused of being dangerous for not carrying a GPS
). I've never yet busted air space or got lost. On one flyout I was bawled at by a pilot staring at his GPS convinced I was about to bust the stansted zone (I knew I wasn't because I was reading my CAA chart and knew exactly where I was). Not trying to turn this thread into a GPS versus DR slagging match, but you get the point.I would consider speaking to the school you will do your CPL at and get their input. I can well understand the desire to fly a Cirrus (and you're quite right it's your money and no-one else's business what you do with it), but just make sure that you practise for your CPL in the most useful fashion. After all you aren't losing anything if you upgrade afterwards.
All the best with it.
Last edited by taxistaxing; 27th Nov 2012 at 08:09. Reason: Spelling
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Newbie looking to upgrade to Cirrus
Very well put taxistaxing!
To add to that. I'm sure the 10 hours required to be signed off on the cirrus is just an insurance requirement that the pilot must have at least 10 hours on type in the last 12 months. Therefore once you have shown yourself to be proficient inoperating the aircraft, which in my experience is in most cases is less than 5 hours, the remainder of the 10 hours could be spent as an intro to CPL level handling and navigation. Or could be counted toward an IMC course ( if instructor can teach IMC).
Good luck whichever route you choose.
SF
To add to that. I'm sure the 10 hours required to be signed off on the cirrus is just an insurance requirement that the pilot must have at least 10 hours on type in the last 12 months. Therefore once you have shown yourself to be proficient inoperating the aircraft, which in my experience is in most cases is less than 5 hours, the remainder of the 10 hours could be spent as an intro to CPL level handling and navigation. Or could be counted toward an IMC course ( if instructor can teach IMC).
Good luck whichever route you choose.
SF
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Sparks
Not our fault Guv is often an excuse given for insurance requirements!
Just consider this ! When an owner/ operator agrees a insurance requirement while there maybe an insurance requirement often the owner/operator will add restrictions on purpose to suit their own agenda.
I flew for an operator who built in a multi engine minimum of 500 hrs! Yes the insurance company were happy to add that minima and it reduced the insurance!
The real reason ! The operator used a merry band of experienced pilots who he charged out at a high rate.
This protected them from less experienced pilots undercutting the rates!
So genuine insurance requirement or built in ???
Pace
Not our fault Guv is often an excuse given for insurance requirements!
Just consider this ! When an owner/ operator agrees a insurance requirement while there maybe an insurance requirement often the owner/operator will add restrictions on purpose to suit their own agenda.
I flew for an operator who built in a multi engine minimum of 500 hrs! Yes the insurance company were happy to add that minima and it reduced the insurance!
The real reason ! The operator used a merry band of experienced pilots who he charged out at a high rate.
This protected them from less experienced pilots undercutting the rates!
So genuine insurance requirement or built in ???
Pace
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Many thanks taxistaxing for the tips.
I will indeed practice what you mentioned.
Regarding your comments about the GPS, I understand what you mean by the GPS being there as a comfort blanket, as I have flown in PA28s with and without GPS at my PPL school. I guess knowing that all you have with you in the air are a map and compass will keep you on your toes a little more but surely it just comes down to self-discipline in the end?
Regarding the transition back to steam gauges, it shouldn't be an issue as the only schools I've considered so far, Flying Time and CTC (modular) both use DA40/DA42s for their commercial training. I would also just use the DA40 for my hour building, it sounds ideal, but unfortunately there just don't seem to be any whatsoever in the NW.
As I understand it, Oxford have also taken delivery of a fleet of glass 182s for their MPL programme, so maybe glass cockpit will become even more of a trend into the future?
Sparks, that does sound about right. I was thinking of finding an instructor to teach me the night qualification (rating now?) during those 10 hours, in the Cirrus, if I decide to go for that airplane. That way if I only need a few hours to familiarise myself with it the rest won't be wasted.
Thanks again
Odai.
I will indeed practice what you mentioned.
Regarding your comments about the GPS, I understand what you mean by the GPS being there as a comfort blanket, as I have flown in PA28s with and without GPS at my PPL school. I guess knowing that all you have with you in the air are a map and compass will keep you on your toes a little more but surely it just comes down to self-discipline in the end?
Regarding the transition back to steam gauges, it shouldn't be an issue as the only schools I've considered so far, Flying Time and CTC (modular) both use DA40/DA42s for their commercial training. I would also just use the DA40 for my hour building, it sounds ideal, but unfortunately there just don't seem to be any whatsoever in the NW.
As I understand it, Oxford have also taken delivery of a fleet of glass 182s for their MPL programme, so maybe glass cockpit will become even more of a trend into the future?
Sparks, that does sound about right. I was thinking of finding an instructor to teach me the night qualification (rating now?) during those 10 hours, in the Cirrus, if I decide to go for that airplane. That way if I only need a few hours to familiarise myself with it the rest won't be wasted.
Thanks again
Odai.
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It takes 1 sim session to get used to flying glass on a type rating.
Going glass to steam the scan has never developed for the 6 gauges unfortunately this has led to pilots failing type ratings.
Hour building you need to find the cheapest aircraft then do quality trips to broaden your experence base.
The added experence of glass SEP isn't really sort after in europe. And in someways the new GA glass far outstrips airliner glass.
If you had a plan that you were going off to Africa to fly G1000 fitted carvans I could see the point to hour build using it. But if your goal is to get a job in the EU there really isn't much point.
Going glass to steam the scan has never developed for the 6 gauges unfortunately this has led to pilots failing type ratings.
Hour building you need to find the cheapest aircraft then do quality trips to broaden your experence base.
The added experence of glass SEP isn't really sort after in europe. And in someways the new GA glass far outstrips airliner glass.
If you had a plan that you were going off to Africa to fly G1000 fitted carvans I could see the point to hour build using it. But if your goal is to get a job in the EU there really isn't much point.
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MJ - yes, glass is so much easier. A quick session is more than enough for the basics, but if you haven't got the basics you will be all over the place with steam gauges.
I cant help but feel those that have learnt on glass (and there are quite a few these days) need to do a "steam gauge" rating before let loose on anything else.
This thread is quite fun isn't it - albeit seems to be everything that is going on, on PPRuNe these days.
I cant help but feel those that have learnt on glass (and there are quite a few these days) need to do a "steam gauge" rating before let loose on anything else.
This thread is quite fun isn't it - albeit seems to be everything that is going on, on PPRuNe these days.
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This thread is quite fun isn't it - albeit seems to be everything that is going on, on PPRuNe these days.
Are you referring to the Cirrus threads? a change of moods where everyone is blowing kisses at everyone else or the The pprune Soap! huge episodes still to come
Pace
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Aye Fuji I quite agree.
And after putting the time in on steam and glass I have yet to have all the instrument stop reading on steam. Unfortunately it happened quite a few time on EFIS. And the good old steam skills came into play again.
And after putting the time in on steam and glass I have yet to have all the instrument stop reading on steam. Unfortunately it happened quite a few time on EFIS. And the good old steam skills came into play again.
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Good news By the way 2 more successful Cirrus chute pulls in the last 10 days, both loss of oil pressure / engine problems which is quite unusual, both all occupants walked away, both in area's where a conventional forced landing would have had a reasonable chance of success, both were experienced guys with a couple of 1000 hours each & IR's etc.
No 38 was in Arizona
No 39 was Australia
No 38 was in Arizona
No 39 was Australia
Last edited by 007helicopter; 27th Nov 2012 at 19:22.
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F900EX
I tend to support A & C on this as there equally seem to be a spate of stupid accidents where basic piloting skills have been grossly lacking.
This has raised concern that the aircrafts abilities and equipment are being used to make up for a lack of basic skills by SOME pilots!
This is a worrying trend with the very capable Cirrus as well as creating a false sense of security through those pilot aids whether through the displays or chute systems!
SOME pilots appear to be lead into conditions they are ill trained or equipt to be in.
Pace
I tend to support A & C on this as there equally seem to be a spate of stupid accidents where basic piloting skills have been grossly lacking.
This has raised concern that the aircrafts abilities and equipment are being used to make up for a lack of basic skills by SOME pilots!
This is a worrying trend with the very capable Cirrus as well as creating a false sense of security through those pilot aids whether through the displays or chute systems!
SOME pilots appear to be lead into conditions they are ill trained or equipt to be in.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 27th Nov 2012 at 19:47.
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Fully agree, the whole magenta line syndrome is the norm these days from PPL teaching
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Yep, comfortable with my back up plans
PS just so your 100% certain yes I am taking the wee in a none having a dig manner
Last edited by mad_jock; 27th Nov 2012 at 20:52.
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Fair points, (I did make a bit of a daft comment about wizz wheels) you guys who have either flown for decades and were trained commercially or military I am sure have far superior DR skills than I or an average PPL could reasonably expect unless they have a serious interest in becoming good in traditional navigation and practice it a lot, some people enjoy that. I personally do not.
In terms of back up the Cirrus has plenty of redundancy in terms of the 2 GNS 430's on independent power supplies, and yes I do carry a further GPS as final back up if it all does go wrong.
With all the risks in flying losing GPS is not one I worry about.
In terms of back up the Cirrus has plenty of redundancy in terms of the 2 GNS 430's on independent power supplies, and yes I do carry a further GPS as final back up if it all does go wrong.
With all the risks in flying losing GPS is not one I worry about.