Newbie looking to upgrade to Cirrus
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Thanks again for your help guys.
There seems to be a bit of an exaggeration with regards to the expense of hiring the Cirrus for my hour building. It certainly isn't a huge deal for my limited budget. In fact, the rates with a non-equity share in the group I'm looking at are very similar to other group 172/PA28 rates. Sometimes less, sometimes only slightly (£10?) more. The rates are certainly comparable.
The issue I raised earlier with regards to the prohibitive financial requirements of the Cirrus was not relating to solo hire, but the initial expense of dual training to the insurance's experience requirements to take it out on my own (10 hours).
It's been mentioned that I should aim for models that are cheaper to hire, but there really isn't much difference at all from what I can tell (again, when using non-equity share groups to make it cost efficient). If there are aircraft out there that are indeed significantly cheaper to hire that I've missed, then I would of course appreciate being pointed in the right direction.
As an example, I could hire out an Aquila for £60 an hour at Blackpool. The Cirrus for £90. A 152 that is falling apart is not going to be very different from that price, not from what I've been able to see so far.
So, as the prices aren't hugely different, it makes sense to go for the more challenging aircraft that will hone my skills in both hand flying and navigation.
I would also again appreciate advice on how I could go about finding aircraft being hired out for non-equity shares, hour-building groups, clubs etc in my local area.
Any chance you could link to that? I haven't been able to find it.
There seems to be a bit of an exaggeration with regards to the expense of hiring the Cirrus for my hour building. It certainly isn't a huge deal for my limited budget. In fact, the rates with a non-equity share in the group I'm looking at are very similar to other group 172/PA28 rates. Sometimes less, sometimes only slightly (£10?) more. The rates are certainly comparable.
The issue I raised earlier with regards to the prohibitive financial requirements of the Cirrus was not relating to solo hire, but the initial expense of dual training to the insurance's experience requirements to take it out on my own (10 hours).
It's been mentioned that I should aim for models that are cheaper to hire, but there really isn't much difference at all from what I can tell (again, when using non-equity share groups to make it cost efficient). If there are aircraft out there that are indeed significantly cheaper to hire that I've missed, then I would of course appreciate being pointed in the right direction.
As an example, I could hire out an Aquila for £60 an hour at Blackpool. The Cirrus for £90. A 152 that is falling apart is not going to be very different from that price, not from what I've been able to see so far.
So, as the prices aren't hugely different, it makes sense to go for the more challenging aircraft that will hone my skills in both hand flying and navigation.
I would also again appreciate advice on how I could go about finding aircraft being hired out for non-equity shares, hour-building groups, clubs etc in my local area.
Originally Posted by fwjc
I still recommend looking at the thread on what to do with your hours, but as MJ says initially, it doesn't matter what you hour build on, as long as it's constructively done.
If you want to fly a Cirrus, then there's no real reason not to. Just do not baulk at the idea of getting quality Dual time before you take it solo. Ten hours may not even be enough - depending on your prior experience, rate of learning, and ability to 'dump' old habits.
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I googled the phrase what to do hour building
The second item back was a list of threads on here that cover it.
(The second item was an external source giving advice on hour building as well)
The second item back was a list of threads on here that cover it.
(The second item was an external source giving advice on hour building as well)
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Odai
If the Cirrus is very near the price of a PA28 or C172 someone has not done their sums, one look at the ten year items on the chute system will tell you that.
As for the C152 that is falling apart, these will be a thing of the past soon when the Cessna SID,s checks start to bite all the Cessna 100 series aircraft will have to have these checks and I see a lot of under maintainers aircraft being scrapped.
As for the C152 that is falling apart, these will be a thing of the past soon when the Cessna SID,s checks start to bite all the Cessna 100 series aircraft will have to have these checks and I see a lot of under maintainers aircraft being scrapped.
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A and C
You are right about the cost of Cirrus aircraft. However, most Cirrus owners who are making their aircraft available to rent, are not making money, they are trying to cover some of the costs!
A PA28-161 which is worth about £25k is being rented for about £160.
An SR20 less than 10 years old, worth 4 times one of those PA28, can be rented for about £200.
The problem is in the market and the fact that most new pilots doing hour building, couldn't careless about the aircraft, its extra speed, safety, comfort, etc. All they want is short flights with a reasonable amount of taxi time( it is cheaper this way!!!). So a C152 and PA28-140 rightly or wrongly is perfect for this (this wouldn't be the case if they were after flying experience).
ODAI,
The costs you mentioned doesn't include the monthly fixed fee, if the rental value is low (i.e. £90 for Cirrus and £60 for Aquila) then you probably end up paying a higher than average monthly fixed fee (Aquila is an expensive aircraft to buy).
Have you thought about joining a scheme where you can buy block hours in a cirrus and use them as and when it suits you?
You are right about the cost of Cirrus aircraft. However, most Cirrus owners who are making their aircraft available to rent, are not making money, they are trying to cover some of the costs!
A PA28-161 which is worth about £25k is being rented for about £160.
An SR20 less than 10 years old, worth 4 times one of those PA28, can be rented for about £200.
The problem is in the market and the fact that most new pilots doing hour building, couldn't careless about the aircraft, its extra speed, safety, comfort, etc. All they want is short flights with a reasonable amount of taxi time( it is cheaper this way!!!). So a C152 and PA28-140 rightly or wrongly is perfect for this (this wouldn't be the case if they were after flying experience).
ODAI,
The costs you mentioned doesn't include the monthly fixed fee, if the rental value is low (i.e. £90 for Cirrus and £60 for Aquila) then you probably end up paying a higher than average monthly fixed fee (Aquila is an expensive aircraft to buy).
Have you thought about joining a scheme where you can buy block hours in a cirrus and use them as and when it suits you?
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You are right about the cost of Cirrus aircraft. However, most Cirrus owners who are making their aircraft available to rent, are not making money, they are trying to cover some of the costs!
The only renters I know are either training organisations or specific groups set up for this purpose and they all want to either make money or cover costs.
The £90 I guess is a dry rate with a chunk of monthly cost as you say.
I think ODAI appears to have made his mind up this is not the right aircraft to build hours in and I tend to agree with him.
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Originally Posted by dont overfil
Hi Odai,
I am confused by the £90 per hour you mention for the Cirrus. That will only cover the cost of the fuel.
D.O.
I am confused by the £90 per hour you mention for the Cirrus. That will only cover the cost of the fuel.
D.O.
Originally Posted by Bristol1965
ODAI,
The costs you mentioned doesn't include the monthly fixed fee, if the rental value is low (i.e. £90 for Cirrus and £60 for Aquila) then you probably end up paying a higher than average monthly fixed fee (Aquila is an expensive aircraft to buy).
The costs you mentioned doesn't include the monthly fixed fee, if the rental value is low (i.e. £90 for Cirrus and £60 for Aquila) then you probably end up paying a higher than average monthly fixed fee (Aquila is an expensive aircraft to buy).
Have you thought about joining a scheme where you can buy block hours in a cirrus and use them as and when it suits you?
Secondly, I don't want to put a massive amount of cash down up front. I could buy 100 hours in the Cirrus for a little under 9k from AGL, which would be a great saving but very risky considering the general state of GA in this country.
I guess a good balance between risk and cost efficiency would be around 5-10 hours, but again the issue is actually finding groups willing to do this.
One of the things I've considered is approaching one of the many shared equity groups/clubs etc I've found and instead seeing if they'd be interested in allowing someone to hire out their airplane for a reduced rate in return for a monthly fee. Has anyone had success with this before?
Originally Posted by m.Berger
It does not make sense as we all know. The OP's reluctance to consider any of the well meant advice seemed strange but then If I could fly a Cirrus for £90, I wouldn't fly anything else, certainly not a c-42 at £100!
Like I said, the only concern I have about flying the Cirrus, from the financial side, (after my other concerns mentioned at the beginning of this thread were addressed) is the initial outlay for 10 hours training. It just doesn't seem worth it at this point considering the total amount I am looking to spend on hour building and the fact that none of it will count to the PIC time needed for CPL training.
Here is their site for reference:
Welcome To Aircraft Grouping - The Home Of Low Cost Flying
I have also been using this site for looking for non-equity groups, but haven't had much luck finding what I'm after:
Free aviation classified adverts
Also looked at the groups/sharing section of the Flyer forums.
I know I'm probably pushing it to be trying to find an aircraft available for non-equity sharing/similar that has the features I'm looking for and is also available in my region, but I'd still appreciate any tips on how I can go about looking for them anyway.
Last edited by Odai; 17th Nov 2012 at 21:56.
As Cirrus SR20 will burn about 9.5 US gallons / hr in the cruise (130 kts IAS and flying for best economy )which I think equates to about 35 litres/hr. Call that 40 litres if you include a take off & climb. At £2/litre (if you are lucky), the fuel cost = £80/hr
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Friends have done this with a C152 (buying shares for a few months), a Slingsby (shares again), a PA28 (non-capital shares) and a Grob115 (block hours). I also know people who couldn't afford this who got shares in a Jodel.
Most syndicates will be unwilling to sell you block hours for reasons already stated. In the Grob example above, it was a company aeroplane that was made available for block hour flying to one particular person, out of office hours. So it wasn't syndicate owned. Some schools might be willing to sell you block hours in their aeroplanes at a discount.
The PA28 was owned by a particularly generous person who allowed his friend to operate it on a non-equity basis. This is unusual as a scenario, and relies on you having friends with aeroplanes. This is more likely if there is one owner to the aeroplane rather than a syndicate.
The other examples are all shares in aeroplanes that are inexpensive and simple to operate. These aeroplanes can be a bit tatty albeit perfectly airworthy, but this means that the group don't mind hour builders flying them.
As mad jock says, no one gives a hoot what you do your hour building in. The price you are looking at paying for a minimal amount of extra experience (some of which may need be "unlearned" for the CPL), just doesn't add up.
Btw for comparison, in my own syndicate, 100 hours over 6 months would cost around £4500. This is at the cheap end admittedly, and is a difficult deal to find. It's definitely not a Cirrus. But a C152 is still only around £8000. For conservative ball-park figure, not counting your 10hr transition, I'm estimating the Cirrus might be around £12500, probably more. The value of the share shouldn't depreciate significantly so when you sell out, you get back most of what you paid in so I've not factored this into the costs. I've based the figures on 6 months of monthly payments (hangarage and insurance) and estimated wet hourly rates based on fuel burn plus a bit extra for oil and maintenance fund, which is how the average group is effectively run.
As others have said as well, it's clear you are stuck on this idea. Lots of people have offered alternative suggestions and advice. I give up, now, and leave it to you to learn by yourself from experience.
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Fwjc
Some very good points made, the best of those is that you may have to unlearn things for the CPL exam, it would be my stance that most peope find themselfs unlearning over use of the GPS and relearning DR navigation.
So the best way to hour build would be to rent something like a C152 that burns about 23 LTS/hr ( if your PPL instructor told you the red lever was more than a fuel shut off) and do as much in the way of DR navigation as you can.
Take the aircraft across the channel to get the drawback on the fuel, when doing so try to make accurate landfall it is a very good check on your DR navigation.
It is usually the peope who have the DR navigation nailed that do well at CPL flying exams as they have acquired the ability to paint the big picture in their head and don't require it to be presented on a screen in front of them.
So the best way to hour build would be to rent something like a C152 that burns about 23 LTS/hr ( if your PPL instructor told you the red lever was more than a fuel shut off) and do as much in the way of DR navigation as you can.
Take the aircraft across the channel to get the drawback on the fuel, when doing so try to make accurate landfall it is a very good check on your DR navigation.
It is usually the peope who have the DR navigation nailed that do well at CPL flying exams as they have acquired the ability to paint the big picture in their head and don't require it to be presented on a screen in front of them.
Last edited by A and C; 18th Nov 2012 at 07:56.
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ODAI,
If you read the buttom of the page, it will give you the rest of the finances, I copied and pasted the following from the page and the company you mentioned:
G-GCDC Cirrus SR20 G3 Details
Based At Blackbushe EGLK
Monthly Standing Charge £170 Per Month
Hourly Rate £35 Per Hour Dry
Joining Deposit £1,020
Aircraft Online
10 Shares Currently Available
They might have another SR20, but I would talk to them about availability before coming to any conclusions.
If you read the buttom of the page, it will give you the rest of the finances, I copied and pasted the following from the page and the company you mentioned:
G-GCDC Cirrus SR20 G3 Details
Based At Blackbushe EGLK
Monthly Standing Charge £170 Per Month
Hourly Rate £35 Per Hour Dry
Joining Deposit £1,020
Aircraft Online
10 Shares Currently Available
They might have another SR20, but I would talk to them about availability before coming to any conclusions.
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007helicopter
Hi, Generally the owner of these aircrafts don't need to advertise, but if you get to know them, a few might allow you to use their aircraft for a reasonable fee, as long as you meet their requirements.
Do a search on UKGA classified adverts for SR20 and SR22, and contact the one based in Gloucestershire. I am sure they should be able to help if you are genuinely interested in flying a Cirrus.
Alternatively do a google search on "Cirrus SR22 Hire EGHH".
Hi, Generally the owner of these aircrafts don't need to advertise, but if you get to know them, a few might allow you to use their aircraft for a reasonable fee, as long as you meet their requirements.
Do a search on UKGA classified adverts for SR20 and SR22, and contact the one based in Gloucestershire. I am sure they should be able to help if you are genuinely interested in flying a Cirrus.
Alternatively do a google search on "Cirrus SR22 Hire EGHH".
Last edited by Bristol1965; 18th Nov 2012 at 21:11.
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007helicopter
Hi, Generally the owner of these aircrafts don't need to advertise, but if you get to know them, a few might allow you to use their aircraft for a reasonable fee, as long as you meet their requirements.
Do a search on UKGA classified adverts for SR20 and SR22, and contact the one based in Gloucestershire. I am sure they should be able to help if you are genuinely interested in flying a Cirrus.
Hi, Generally the owner of these aircrafts don't need to advertise, but if you get to know them, a few might allow you to use their aircraft for a reasonable fee, as long as you meet their requirements.
Do a search on UKGA classified adverts for SR20 and SR22, and contact the one based in Gloucestershire. I am sure they should be able to help if you are genuinely interested in flying a Cirrus.
My point was I do not know or have heard of private owners who will rent their Cirrus to cover costs
most Cirrus owners who are making their aircraft available to rent, are not making money, they are trying to cover some of the costs!
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Fwjc/A and C, I appreciate your well meant advice, but I have to say I simply disagree.
When more advanced aircraft are available to me for a minimum of additional (sometimes less...) expense it seems foolish to turn down such an opportunity. Higher airspeeds can only challenge my basic handling and navigational abilities that much more.
I do appreciate your points about over reliance on GPS/AP etc, but I did mention several times that I have no intention of allowing my basic skills to lapse. I'll be using this to prepare for my CPL training (if I decide to go down that route) as much as anything else. The tech is there, it doesn't mean I'll rely on it. Not to mention being one more safety net if things go pear shaped.
The aircraft I mentioned are available at decent rates, if they weren't then obviously I'd opt for more typical choices like the C152/PA28 as you say.
Just to clarify again also, buying a share in an airplane is definitely not a possibility at this stage. An ideal situation would be something like a non equity arrangement.
As I mentioned, at this point I'm looking more for advice on how to search for available aircraft rather than what aircraft to go for. Ie, what could I use other than the classifieds section on ukga and grouping forum on Flyer that I mentioned?
Thanks for looking, but I'm actually looking at hiring the one at Blackpool. The EGNH based cirrus is advertised at £90/hr, £150 a month. I've managed to get in touch with AGL and those rates are accurate for now, and they seem to have continued operating despite the issues with the owner. So hopefully it will continue to remain as an option.
I'm not saying the Cirrus or Aquila are what I want to fly for sure, I'm simply choosing not to rule them out at this stage. The only reason I'm really posting right now is again just to ask people for advice on searching for groups, being completely new to this game.
Out of interest, do you mind if I ask why that is?
Thanks again for all your time everyone.
Odai.
When more advanced aircraft are available to me for a minimum of additional (sometimes less...) expense it seems foolish to turn down such an opportunity. Higher airspeeds can only challenge my basic handling and navigational abilities that much more.
I do appreciate your points about over reliance on GPS/AP etc, but I did mention several times that I have no intention of allowing my basic skills to lapse. I'll be using this to prepare for my CPL training (if I decide to go down that route) as much as anything else. The tech is there, it doesn't mean I'll rely on it. Not to mention being one more safety net if things go pear shaped.
The aircraft I mentioned are available at decent rates, if they weren't then obviously I'd opt for more typical choices like the C152/PA28 as you say.
Just to clarify again also, buying a share in an airplane is definitely not a possibility at this stage. An ideal situation would be something like a non equity arrangement.
As I mentioned, at this point I'm looking more for advice on how to search for available aircraft rather than what aircraft to go for. Ie, what could I use other than the classifieds section on ukga and grouping forum on Flyer that I mentioned?
Originally Posted by Bristol1965
ODAI,
If you read the buttom of the page, it will give you the rest of the finances, I copied and pasted the following from the page and the company you mentioned:
G-GCDC Cirrus SR20 G3 Details
Based At Blackbushe EGLK
Monthly Standing Charge £170 Per Month
Hourly Rate £35 Per Hour Dry
Joining Deposit £1,020
Aircraft Online
10 Shares Currently Available
They might have another SR20, but I would talk to them about availability before coming to any conclusions.
If you read the buttom of the page, it will give you the rest of the finances, I copied and pasted the following from the page and the company you mentioned:
G-GCDC Cirrus SR20 G3 Details
Based At Blackbushe EGLK
Monthly Standing Charge £170 Per Month
Hourly Rate £35 Per Hour Dry
Joining Deposit £1,020
Aircraft Online
10 Shares Currently Available
They might have another SR20, but I would talk to them about availability before coming to any conclusions.
I'm not saying the Cirrus or Aquila are what I want to fly for sure, I'm simply choosing not to rule them out at this stage. The only reason I'm really posting right now is again just to ask people for advice on searching for groups, being completely new to this game.
Originally Posted by 007helicopter
PS I am a Cirrus owner and share it with 2 other friends for the last 4 years, we personally would never consider doing general rental, others may just that I have never heard of them.
Thanks again for all your time everyone.
Odai.
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Odai
You are of course compleatly free to disagree with me on this issue and after 25 years of instructing and 13,000 hours of flying I know I don't have all the answers.......... Only time will tell who is correct in this case.
Last edited by A and C; 19th Nov 2012 at 16:21.
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Out of interest, do you mind if I ask why that is?
Wear and tear, mismanagement of the engine and even stuff like riding the breaks would far outweigh any gain as a subsidy to costs.
A bit like if you had a £150K car would you be happy to rent it for £150 an hour plus stick some fuel in it? probably not.
The groups work, non equity or otherwise because the whole premise is set up to cover costs (and a small reserve or profit in theory)
Last edited by 007helicopter; 19th Nov 2012 at 19:10.
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To add to 007's comments it is the same for any Group or owner based aircraft.
For example you might not believe how badly many land - ok, the landing is good enough to pass the PPL, but no owner wants the nose wheel subjected to frequent torture. That is one example. Then there are all the "personal" aspects of ownership. How often do hirers get out of aircraft and leave the screen covered in dead bugs, leave the cockpit in a mess, mistreat the headsets, the list can be endless .. .. .. why people do those things who knows, I guess if you hire and walk away its someone else problem and perceived as being factored into the price - or perhaps just plain inconsideration, which needs to be pointed out and remembered.
For example you might not believe how badly many land - ok, the landing is good enough to pass the PPL, but no owner wants the nose wheel subjected to frequent torture. That is one example. Then there are all the "personal" aspects of ownership. How often do hirers get out of aircraft and leave the screen covered in dead bugs, leave the cockpit in a mess, mistreat the headsets, the list can be endless .. .. .. why people do those things who knows, I guess if you hire and walk away its someone else problem and perceived as being factored into the price - or perhaps just plain inconsideration, which needs to be pointed out and remembered.