Newbie looking to upgrade to Cirrus

[Odai]

Hello,

I am finally close to completing my PPL, and have thus been considering my options for recreational hire, and possibly CPL hour building if I decide I want to work towards the fATPL. I am currently flying the PA28-161 (having flown the first half of my course on the Grob 115A).

One of the options available to me after finishing is buying into a Cirrus SR20 group. I have sat in the cockpit as the manager of this particular FTO showed me the various features of the plane, and found myself very impressed with the setup (most of all the side-stick control and avionics suite).

However, I am concerned about a couple of things (other than the cost!).

Firstly, being a new PPL (looking to hopefully pass with around 55 hours), would my lack of experience be an issue? There is a policy of having to complete at least 10 hours instruction in the aircraft before I can hire it, and of course an instructor wouldn't sign me off to fly if they do not believe I am competent enough to do so anyway, but I am thinking more long-term. I have seen reports that the Cirrus has a comparitively poor safety record with a particularly high incidence of stall related accidents, could it be that the level of handling skills required might be pushing it for a low houred pilot?

Secondly, it seems that there have also been problems with the door mechanisms, leading to issues with doors opening in flight more commonly than typical for light aircraft. However, most of the reports that I found are not that recent, could it be this problem has now been fixed by Cirrus?

Would appreciate any feedback on these points!

Thanks,

Odai.

[A and C]

Wast of money

If hour building for the CPL is your goal then you need to practice basic navigation and aircraft handeling.

Following the magenta line by autopilot is not going to help you one bit, get yourself into a C152 or PA28 it will cost less and teach you more and you are unlikely to find yourself doing an overly long training course to fly a fixed gear SEP just because some people seem to think it is a bit of a rocket ship.

[Fuji Abound]

Doors

They still might (open). It is not a problem. Slow down, land a relatch the door. I have had it happen a couple of times. The problem stems from not making absolutely sure the door is properly latched in the first place, in particular dont leave it to thd pax.

Flying

There is nothing about the 20 that is difficult. Some struggle a bit with the speeds and staying ahead of the aircraft. If you do you just may not be a "natural" and will have to accept it takes longer. There is nothing unusual about the stall (it is all myth) and the accident rate is not exceptional (another myth).

Get some good instruction and you will be fine.

A and c makes a valid point.

[Pace]

A&C makes a valid point about learning conventional nav and instrument skills before moving into an aircraft like the Cirrus.
If I was you maybe tackle the IMCR first so you can get the full benefit of the aircraft which is a tourer.
I too think far too much is made of the Hot ship argument which basic handling skills should more than cope with!
Apart from that a great choice with the added benefit of the chute which has proved very reliable and saved many lives!
The 10 hour requirement is a complete nonsense IMO if you need 10 hrs 20 hrs or whatever so be it but 5 hrs is perfectly adequate for a competant pilot!
Anything more than 5 hrs due to insurance smacks more of work and income for the boys rather than a genuine insurance requirment.
You should not be wasting your money learning the nav/ displays in the aircraft anyway so it's 10 hrs to learn to handle a simple single engine fixed gear aircraft! Crazy and daylight robbery.

Pace

[sharpend]

The Cirrus is a great aeroplane. So is a Chipmunk. I have over a 100 hrs on the former and over 1000 on the later (I only mention that so that you know I have some experience).

Like the Chippy (once described as a wolf in sheeps clothing), the Cirrus can bite. I personally don't think it has a stalling problem. It is a little slippery and one needs to plan one's slow-down. I found the main problem was landing. The Cirrus does not like landing fast. Whereas a Bulldog, PA28 etc can accept 5 - 10 kts hot, in a Cirrus you may well come to grief. Read the accident reports.

However, if you adopt the right technique the aerplane will reward you well. It is a great tourer.

Yes the doors can open in flight, even if correctly adjusted and closed properly. It has happened to me on several occasions, though invariable only one latch fails so the door stays in place. A landing is thus required!

[3victorecho]

Sharpend offers some excellent advice. I owned a Cirrus SR22 for four years. There have been numerous prop strikes in Cirrus aircraft, and I can confirm they are susceptible to bouncing if landing fast. If you know this is a risk and get some good instruction this should not be a problem.

I also had a door pop open in flight on a number of occassions before I learnt how to properly check it was closed. This is not difficult to learn.

The amount of time you need to convert will depend more on the avionics than anything else. It is important to stay ahead of the plane and the more familiar you are with the avionics the safer you will be in my opinion.

I have fond memories of my Cirrus and would go back to it if my mission profile suited.
3VE

[pudoc]

A&C has got it right.

[thborchert]

Go for it. As the others have said, there is nothing special about a Cirrus except it doesn't like fast landings.

As for "learning the basic skills" and all that, I'd take the potentially radical view that glass cockpits, GPS nav and the magenta line ARE the new basic skills. NDBs, VORs and tons of dials aren't basic, they are just outdated - if you make the choice of flying modern, contemporary aircraft instead of the usual (and much cheaper) avionics museums. That's not to say you shouldn't be able to interpret and fly that half mil (isn't that what the Brits call it?) displayed on your iPad. But you learned that getting the license, I'm pretty sure.

So let the fight begin

[Odai]

Many thanks everyone for the helpful responses.

The 10 hours dual training requirement does feel excessive and may well put off these plans for now due to the expense, not to mention the fact that the last thing I want to do is go through another course of training immediately after getting the PPL. I'll have to see closer to the time.

A and C, my intention would be to practice as much hand flying as possible in addition to keeping my basic dead reckoning navigation skills sharp, but it would also be useful to gain experience with the various automated avionics, GPS etc. Not to mention making the experience more enjoyable. I don't intend to use the error prone dead reckoning method as my primary method after gaining my PPL (whether for private flying or possible commercial work). It would only be to maintain a good spatial awareness as opposed to slavishly relying on the GPS, in addition to redundancy reasons in case all else fails.

With regards to the door problem, even if it would not pose a major direct threat to the safety of the flight it would still be a deal breaker. One of the reasons being the expense of having to divert and land in order to fix the issue, before getting back to the original trip. If it is as regular a problem as it seems to be from various sources then it's probably enough to put me off.

3victorecho and Fuji abound mention that it is possible to avoid by making sure the door is properly latched, but how is this done exactly? However, even then sharpend mentions that it happens even when the door is properly closed?

Other than the Cirrus, are there any other similar SEPs that anyone can reccommend?

[thborchert]

You're exactly right about dead reckoning not being the tool for practical every-day flying these days. GPS is.

I'm afraid you took away the wrong impression regarding the doors. It's pretty much a non-issue.

[007helicopter]

it is possible to avoid by making sure the door is properly latched, but how is this done exactly? However, even then sharpend mentions that it happens even when the door is properly closed?

Thorchert is correct the doors are a non issue, I never heard of one opening if properly closed, maybe only if you think it is properly closed. However it is just a technique to get right as part of pre-flight. I personally prefer to close my passengers door from the outside and then get in.

If cost to divert and fix a minor problem is a cost issue then you are right not to choose the Cirrus, for building hours or on a tight budget choose something cheaper for just as much fun.

[007helicopter]

The 10 hours dual training requirement does feel excessive and may well put off these plans for now due to the expense

As a brand new PPL I would be fairly certain it will take you longer than 10 hours before somebody is prepared to rent you their Cirrus so again factor that into your cost decision.

[echobeach]

If you fly the cirrus to the numbers in the POH it's a pleasure to fly.

If you try and land too fast or slow it will cause potential problems but if you cross the threshold at V ref it's fine.

I have not enjoyed flying any craft more than the SR 20 I am currently privileged enough to fly and have done just over a 100 hours in it.

It's a pleasure for short hops but is best when you set course for France or somewhere distant. We usually get 145 kts TAS and you can cross long distances comfortably.

It's an absolute joy to fly, but I am quite glad I spent a few years in pa28 and arrows etc so I can now truly appreciate what you can do with cirrus.

And I can can get mrs eb into this craft. In everything else she doesn't think it's up to the job.

[fatmanmedia]

my vote for an alternative would be the Diamond DA40

fats

[Fuji Abound]

The 10 hour requirement is a complete nonsense IMO if you need 10 hrs 20 hrs or whatever so be it but 5 hrs is perfectly adequate for a competant pilot!

Pace - you cant have it both ways.

Only a few threads ago you were arguing Cirrus pilots needed more training - now its less.

In reality I agree that a competent pilot will do fine with 5 hours, but probably not a newish PPL with no time on faster aircraft and only PA28 experience. That is a reasonable transition both in terms of speed, glass cockpit, chute, a considerably more slippery air frame just to mention a few aspects.

Of course there may be some operations that take advantage, but I have to say I have come across very few. Most do a fair assessment of the pilot and if they cut the mustard the hours are adjusted accordingly. By all means anyone going this route could get the assurance first. Then it does come down to trust. I am not boasting but I did two hours in the Cirrus up front probably even then a little more than necessary as it seemed a pleasant idea to do a few T and Gs in France. However I had lots of glass time (and the now mandatory glass sign off), lots of twin time and a few post PPL hours. As a new PPL with no glass time, I have a feeling 15 hours or so would not have been unreasonable and then dependent on how much time I was prepared to study the avionics before.

[Odai]

Thanks again for all the help everyone.

Based on your feedback, the Cirrus does indeed sound like a suitable airplane. The main barrier at the moment then is just the initial cost of being checked out on one.

As a result, does anyone know of any alternative similar performance aircraft I could fly for my hour building? Preferably one that does not present the same issue as the Cirrus in terms of the training requirements.

I have considered the DA40, but there doesn't seem to be any local groups/clubs/FTOs hiring these out. I have also considered the Arrow, but all the examples I've found are typical school aircraft (falling apart inside, old equipment, none of the glass cockpits I'm looking for experience in etc).

I live in the North-West area, between Liverpool and Manchester. I have looked for information on available aircraft at Barton, Liverpool, Blackpool, Woodvale, and Hawarden. I haven't been able to find any aircraft whatsoever that would suit me at any of the establishments I know of at those fields, and I don't know of any other fields that are near me. It would actually seem the most suitable aircraft at this stage is the Cirrus. Although I am keen to avoid it if I can due to the costs involved in training.

Any ideas? I wouldn't mind flying a slightly lower performance airplane than the Cirrus either, if it gets me out of the costly check outs. Just something a bit more powerful than the PA28 I'm in at the moment.

Thanks!

Odai.

[fatmanmedia]

thinking outside the box why not a pipistrel Virus SW, it has the option for a full glass cockpit, 140kt of speed and a 800nm range all on between 3-4 gallons per hour (depending on engine).

it's only a 2 seater but i don't know a cheaper way to build flight hours, base price is about £45k but i would expect that to be more like £80-90k with options.

just a thought.

fats

[A and C]

Am I a Luddite or a realist ?

Those of you who think that the magenta line is a basic skill are living in some sort of techno dream world, without the basic skill of DR navigation you should not be let anywhere near an aircraft, as to this situational awareness rubbish, likewise if you can't paint the picture in your head then you should not be flying.

These DR & SA skills are the very fundamentals of piloting and without developing them you are putting your neck in a noose, that noose will tighten very quickly when the screens go blank and you are back to three little round dials to keep the aircraft upright and pointed away from the hills.

Odia If you do your CPL the navigation part is largely DR, the choice is to get with the program now or it will cost you to relearn the skills.

About now I can feel the techno wannabes dismissing me as an old fart who wants the return of the Astro compass & air almanac but I think you need to know why you need the old skills even for aircraft far more sophisticated than the Cirrus & DA40.

A few years back I was relaxing over a cup of tea at FL350 in an A320 an aircraft with a multiple sensor navigation system that makes the Cirrus look like something from the dark ages. The recent graduate from the Magenta kindergarten who was sitting in the right seat decides to try some FMC magic without consulting me, the result of the lighting speed fingers is that he dumps the aircraft position and all the navigation screens go blank!

He then goes into total panic mode, clueless as to what is his next move.

I go down to the flight plan set the HDG in the compass ( yes the one like you have in the Cessna 152) and start the clock ready for the next waypoint, once the aircraft was safely pionted in the right direction I probe for a VOR radial and distance to get an accurate position to get the FMC back on line.

The point I make is that by NOT training and practicing for DR navigation you are trusting your life to bit of kit that will happily fly you into mountain if it fails or you put rubbish into it, the Cirrus & DA40 systems are not reliable enough to trust in the way that the duplicated systems in airliners can be trusted but even those airliner systems are subject to errors both human and technical that is why even today in airliners we also use a paper navigation log that will enable us to get a DR plot running if the screens go black.

Oh I amend this post as I hear that in The Times today they say that humans are getting more stupid because they are letting technology do all the thinking for them, one can only speculate from the some of the posts above if this is true.

[Fuji Abound]

I am not sure i should take the bait a and c but you are very wide of the mark.

I actually agree with your comments about basic skills, they are important to have and equally important to be able to fall back on.

However the cirrus has much more redundancy that you realise. There are twin ifr gps, the screens are now independent, capable of each displaying the vital information and driven by independent computers. Then there is the hand held gps in my flight bag that will power up in oh um about 20 seconds and needs only a gps signal. Finally there is atc on box 1 or box 2 or the hand held also in my bag - please sir i have lost everything how about a vector there is a good chap. Dedicated followers of the purple line with a well packed flight back are really very unlikely to ever need to revert to da should they prefer not to.

[Pace]

Fuji

But its crazy to be teaching the displays at £200 per hour flying around that should be on a sim.

Pace