Newbie looking to upgrade to Cirrus
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Thanks Mary.
As to all this talk of glass I think there can be no doubt it is easier to fly with glass than without. It brings together a great deal of our experience of how best to present information to the brain - a bit like safety, its no accident that it is designed in the way it is.
One day it will be surpassed by HUDS, we already know these are an even better way of presenting the same information.
In its short life it has become dramatically more reliable. Even at the GA level there is far more redundancy built into Garmin's latest incarnation than the first G1000s I flew with.
Of course it has huge commercial advantage as well. It so much easier and less costly to slip in a couple of glass screens and modular avionics than all the wiring and plumbing that accompany a conventional set up.
I doubt the clock can be turned back, and I doubt anyone is seriously suggesting it should. Of course that doesnt mean there isnt a place for more conventional setups and, just as with cars, I have no doubt some of us will still be attracted to Morgans.
Who would have thought even a few years ago you could buy a standalone AI, all solid state, for under a grand - no mechanical gyros, no vacuums, just a sexy box of modern technology that would reassure any pilot mindful that his AI could wind down at any moment.
but you should understand the technology - or should you? I doubt many do. We all learned how a gyro works - but actually do we really care? We need to approach how we train pilots to fly technology differently. It is in this respect little has changed between today and yester year. In the example previously given the screens failed and with it the pilot found he couldn't access the plates. Well the pilot was no worse off than any other pilot flying any aircraft. Have you never been "caught out" not having the correct plate? Isnt it still a luxury to have a fully functioning AI, whether or not the glass has failed? There is nothing in that scenario that hinders the pilot making a well organised approach, other than being able to overcome his sense of panic that the glass screens no longer work. It is basic training, and if the pilot cannot fly the aircraft with a functioning AI and a functioning radio then something has fundamentally gone wrong with the training - it has nothing to do with whether there are two black glass screens, six dials or a handle in the ceiling. It has everything to do with "what would you do if the screens go black", "what would you do if the electrics fail", "what would you do if you want to land some where but the pax has spoiled the plate with the coffee or something worse".
My other issue is checklists - why do we have them? Well they do become even more important with glass. There is no doubt that were you to fully understand the inter relationship between the various systems you systems knowledge would need to be extensive - but why reinvent the wheel? If you get an annunciation that the fans have failed on the avionics stack do you expect the radios will cook themselves and fail? However thorough your knowledge of the systems are you really likely to know the answer? Indeed should you land at the very earliest opportunity in case a fire results? No, your best bet is to know how to immediately put your hands on the check list, how to find the relevant section and how to follow the prescribed action. In the aftermath the first thing the "investigators" will ask you is - "did you go to the check list"? Would you have gone to the checklist?
As to all this talk of glass I think there can be no doubt it is easier to fly with glass than without. It brings together a great deal of our experience of how best to present information to the brain - a bit like safety, its no accident that it is designed in the way it is.
One day it will be surpassed by HUDS, we already know these are an even better way of presenting the same information. In its short life it has become dramatically more reliable. Even at the GA level there is far more redundancy built into Garmin's latest incarnation than the first G1000s I flew with.
Of course it has huge commercial advantage as well. It so much easier and less costly to slip in a couple of glass screens and modular avionics than all the wiring and plumbing that accompany a conventional set up.
I doubt the clock can be turned back, and I doubt anyone is seriously suggesting it should. Of course that doesnt mean there isnt a place for more conventional setups and, just as with cars, I have no doubt some of us will still be attracted to Morgans.
Who would have thought even a few years ago you could buy a standalone AI, all solid state, for under a grand - no mechanical gyros, no vacuums, just a sexy box of modern technology that would reassure any pilot mindful that his AI could wind down at any moment.
but you should understand the technology - or should you? I doubt many do. We all learned how a gyro works - but actually do we really care? We need to approach how we train pilots to fly technology differently. It is in this respect little has changed between today and yester year. In the example previously given the screens failed and with it the pilot found he couldn't access the plates. Well the pilot was no worse off than any other pilot flying any aircraft. Have you never been "caught out" not having the correct plate? Isnt it still a luxury to have a fully functioning AI, whether or not the glass has failed? There is nothing in that scenario that hinders the pilot making a well organised approach, other than being able to overcome his sense of panic that the glass screens no longer work. It is basic training, and if the pilot cannot fly the aircraft with a functioning AI and a functioning radio then something has fundamentally gone wrong with the training - it has nothing to do with whether there are two black glass screens, six dials or a handle in the ceiling. It has everything to do with "what would you do if the screens go black", "what would you do if the electrics fail", "what would you do if you want to land some where but the pax has spoiled the plate with the coffee or something worse".
My other issue is checklists - why do we have them? Well they do become even more important with glass. There is no doubt that were you to fully understand the inter relationship between the various systems you systems knowledge would need to be extensive - but why reinvent the wheel? If you get an annunciation that the fans have failed on the avionics stack do you expect the radios will cook themselves and fail? However thorough your knowledge of the systems are you really likely to know the answer? Indeed should you land at the very earliest opportunity in case a fire results? No, your best bet is to know how to immediately put your hands on the check list, how to find the relevant section and how to follow the prescribed action. In the aftermath the first thing the "investigators" will ask you is - "did you go to the check list"? Would you have gone to the checklist?
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 28th Nov 2012 at 21:40.
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There was an article in GASCO which mentioned a study in I think in Austrialia which found that the there is an increased risk of an accident on both landing and departure using glass. It was something to do with the brain being able to process a rate of rotation of a needle better than a strip moving in high stress situations.
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Regarding the Zurich crash and lack of plates.
A training Captain once told me that if you dont have the plates, all you need is this: a heading to fly and Frequency, with that you can almost fly any ILS or even a VOR. It's just a bit of maths. (3 degree glide, 9 miles out be at 3000 feet, similar with the VOR, if you can ask ATC for elevation you can even set 200 baro)
I know Zurich well, we used to fly in there at least 3 times a week. It can be a bit tricky, shame he did not talk to ATC,.
To be honest Glass is such a nice thing to have, having flown the 737-800, I loved it. Of course the Cirrus's avionics is far more complex than that.
Seeing there are a lot of partial glass 737's and other aircraft out there, I should know I fly one, it makes common sense to train in a basic steam gauge aircraft.
A training Captain once told me that if you dont have the plates, all you need is this: a heading to fly and Frequency, with that you can almost fly any ILS or even a VOR. It's just a bit of maths. (3 degree glide, 9 miles out be at 3000 feet, similar with the VOR, if you can ask ATC for elevation you can even set 200 baro)
I know Zurich well, we used to fly in there at least 3 times a week. It can be a bit tricky, shame he did not talk to ATC,.
To be honest Glass is such a nice thing to have, having flown the 737-800, I loved it. Of course the Cirrus's avionics is far more complex than that.
Seeing there are a lot of partial glass 737's and other aircraft out there, I should know I fly one, it makes common sense to train in a basic steam gauge aircraft.
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Hi, even if there is no loss of power to the glass panels, there is still the problem that you loose the Nav page when looking at the Checklists page.
I suffered the equivalent in a steam gauge C172, when I ripped my right shoulder muscles whilst retrieving the Pooleys Flight Guide from the back seats. It made it a bit painfull to fly a two handed landing.
I suffered the equivalent in a steam gauge C172, when I ripped my right shoulder muscles whilst retrieving the Pooleys Flight Guide from the back seats. It made it a bit painfull to fly a two handed landing.
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nahh, Cortina, just set the throttle correctly, speed, attitude, floats touch down and there you are....o yes, that's for water, isn't it?
Fuji poses the question, have you ever been caught out without the right plate?
Coming back from Texas in a 172, with a passenger, very late at night, so stopped in Mobile to top up the fuel. That was the good move. Eases the mind to know you have a few hours in the tank. Because as we sailed along, bound for Gainsville, and then Saint Pete, Jacksonville enroute spoke up and told me that Gainsville was down in fog. How about Lake City? Sorry, that's down in fog too. What about returning to Mobile. Very sorry, that is also down in fog!
Fortunately my passenger was sound asleep and not listening to the conversation.
"Tallahassee is still open, with scattered and broken." Well, I replied, I don't have the approach plates, so could you give me a vector? Yes, said Jacksonville, but when you go below 5,000' you are below my radar.....
O well. Lead me to Talahassee, I replied and I will have a look. So he did, and lo, when we were directly overhead (this was 2 am EST) there was a gap in the clouds, and there directly below was the airport, and it was all lit up!
So just like returning from towing up a glider, we dove down through that hole in the cloud, as Tallahassee Tower had confirmed no known traffic, and learned later that this was the first time they had gone to all night operation and fuel was available! And there was a real live met man, in his little office with all his latest gen. He guaranteed that Saint Pete would be clear, so we flew in the moonlight, over a sea of fog like milk, and sure enough at dawn, the clouds parted and we brought the 172 safely back to the flying club.
I love flying at night in America!
Fuji poses the question, have you ever been caught out without the right plate?
Coming back from Texas in a 172, with a passenger, very late at night, so stopped in Mobile to top up the fuel. That was the good move. Eases the mind to know you have a few hours in the tank. Because as we sailed along, bound for Gainsville, and then Saint Pete, Jacksonville enroute spoke up and told me that Gainsville was down in fog. How about Lake City? Sorry, that's down in fog too. What about returning to Mobile. Very sorry, that is also down in fog!
Fortunately my passenger was sound asleep and not listening to the conversation.
"Tallahassee is still open, with scattered and broken." Well, I replied, I don't have the approach plates, so could you give me a vector? Yes, said Jacksonville, but when you go below 5,000' you are below my radar.....
O well. Lead me to Talahassee, I replied and I will have a look. So he did, and lo, when we were directly overhead (this was 2 am EST) there was a gap in the clouds, and there directly below was the airport, and it was all lit up!
So just like returning from towing up a glider, we dove down through that hole in the cloud, as Tallahassee Tower had confirmed no known traffic, and learned later that this was the first time they had gone to all night operation and fuel was available! And there was a real live met man, in his little office with all his latest gen. He guaranteed that Saint Pete would be clear, so we flew in the moonlight, over a sea of fog like milk, and sure enough at dawn, the clouds parted and we brought the 172 safely back to the flying club.
I love flying at night in America!
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Well, I replied, I don't have the approach plates, so could you give me a vector?
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Fuji poses the question, have you ever been caught out without the right plate?
Went back IFR all the way with the plates up front
ILAF(ifr)FT!!
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BTW Mary your love night flying in America motivated me to book my instructor for a thorough night workout next week to get me back and current as I have been tending to avoid night flying for a couple of years.
Thanks for that.
Thanks for that.
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It is such a shame night flying in the UK is so difficult.
It is really hard to find any where to go, always assuming you can get back. Why oh why cant more places close at an almost sensible time - 8 pm wouldn't be too bad - I know, cost, planning and pilots cant be trusted to operate the runway lights.
I recall my first rip at night in the States to Merritt Island from Miami.
What time do you close - says I,
Close says he - what do you mean,
Well, says I, I need to know the latest time I can arrive,
Ah, a Brit, says he, we don't close, we are happy to see you at 2 am if you like, but there probably will not be anyone else here,
So I did, and there wasn't.
Magic.
It is really hard to find any where to go, always assuming you can get back. Why oh why cant more places close at an almost sensible time - 8 pm wouldn't be too bad - I know, cost, planning and pilots cant be trusted to operate the runway lights.
I recall my first rip at night in the States to Merritt Island from Miami.
What time do you close - says I,
Close says he - what do you mean,
Well, says I, I need to know the latest time I can arrive,
Ah, a Brit, says he, we don't close, we are happy to see you at 2 am if you like, but there probably will not be anyone else here,
So I did, and there wasn't.
Magic.
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Fuji - last night you could have chosen from Sywell, Coventry, Conington, Cambridge, Leicester and East Midlands Airport, at least until 8pm. On top of that, at least three of those airfields have on site restaurants. That's just in one small part of the country. I'm sure there are others closer to you.
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Taybird - yes, and that is pleasing to see.
However, lets be frank 8 pm is not exactly late, and for many the assumption is their "home" airport doesn't close earlier - not a lot of point going somewhere if you cant go back.
I fully understand that many fly for the pure pleasure of flying - I have no bone to pick with those that do, but I have got to the point of liking a purpose. I would prefer not to partake in the usual burger run (although I still do on occasion).
Still its the way it is, I just accept that nearly everything is closed by 8 or earlier.
However, lets be frank 8 pm is not exactly late, and for many the assumption is their "home" airport doesn't close earlier - not a lot of point going somewhere if you cant go back.
I fully understand that many fly for the pure pleasure of flying - I have no bone to pick with those that do, but I have got to the point of liking a purpose. I would prefer not to partake in the usual burger run (although I still do on occasion).
Still its the way it is, I just accept that nearly everything is closed by 8 or earlier.
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There is you lot wanting to fly at night.
Heres me that hasn't done a day landing in a month and a half (80 plus landings). Northern lights is quite pretty though
H'mm another month and a half and I will be outside 90day day landings
Heres me that hasn't done a day landing in a month and a half (80 plus landings). Northern lights is quite pretty though
H'mm another month and a half and I will be outside 90day day landings
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He guaranteed that Saint Pete would be clear, so we flew in the moonlight, over a sea of fog like milk, and sure enough at dawn, the clouds parted and we brought the 172 safely back to the flying club.
I love flying at night in America!
I love flying at night in America!
Anyway moved the Aircraft to Biggin which closes 9.00pm, Booked a Cirrus Instructor for 2 days and managed to log around 7 hours with him, 2 trips to france, 10 instrument approaches at night, 12 plus night landings, a far bit of interesting weather and I am now current and much more confident at night.
A nice trip to Cambridge tonight for a few extra ILS practices and further night landings and I feel back where I should be so thanks again for that post that jabbed me in the ribs.......
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Thank you for your kind words, 007, and well done on renewing your practice and confidence. In these northern climes there is a lot more night than day this time of year, and having the rating renewed helps you to relax when the flight plan gets a bit unstuck.
Once long ago, when newly night rated at Booker, I was taking a lad up in a glider over High Wycombe. It was his 16th birthday. We found lift at twilight over the city, oozing warmth it was, so we stayed there and enjoyed it, he was thrilled. My plan B was to plonk in on the power side at Wycombe Air Park if it was too dark to land on the gliding side, but didn't need the diversion, as the loom of the ground was sufficient, just with the ambient light.
I was quite surprised to notice that the instruments in the glider glowed in the dark! Gliders don't usually fly at night, but if the wind is on the ridge, you could stay up all night ....displaying of course the required red light on the tail.....
Once long ago, when newly night rated at Booker, I was taking a lad up in a glider over High Wycombe. It was his 16th birthday. We found lift at twilight over the city, oozing warmth it was, so we stayed there and enjoyed it, he was thrilled. My plan B was to plonk in on the power side at Wycombe Air Park if it was too dark to land on the gliding side, but didn't need the diversion, as the loom of the ground was sufficient, just with the ambient light.
I was quite surprised to notice that the instruments in the glider glowed in the dark! Gliders don't usually fly at night, but if the wind is on the ridge, you could stay up all night ....displaying of course the required red light on the tail.....
