Newbie looking to upgrade to Cirrus
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A and C
I did wonder if that would get a mention. 
It is a but desperate, but I guess possible. However, I find it unlikely anyone flying a Cirrus (well almost anyone) couldn't manage to identify and use a VOR?
We can dream up all sorts of scenarios and reasons why a Cirrus driver might be forced to resort to DA, I just think they are incredibly unlikely.
There is not much else to say so best parked there. I respect your point of view I just think the average private pilot could go several life times in a Cirrus and never need to resort to DA.
It matters not if you have one or ten GPS units if it is the satellite system that is at fault.
It is a but desperate, but I guess possible. However, I find it unlikely anyone flying a Cirrus (well almost anyone) couldn't manage to identify and use a VOR?
We can dream up all sorts of scenarios and reasons why a Cirrus driver might be forced to resort to DA, I just think they are incredibly unlikely.
There is not much else to say so best parked there. I respect your point of view I just think the average private pilot could go several life times in a Cirrus and never need to resort to DA.
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Fuji Abound
It is a but desperate, but I guess possible. However, I find it unlikely
anyone flying a Cirrus (well almost anyone) couldn't manage to identify and use
a VOR?
We can dream up all sorts of scenarios and reasons why a Cirrus
driver might be forced to resort to DA, I just think they are incredibly
unlikely.
There is not much else to say so best parked there. I respect
your point of view I just think the average private pilot could go several life times in a Cirrus and never need to resort to DA.
It is a but desperate, but I guess possible. However, I find it unlikely
anyone flying a Cirrus (well almost anyone) couldn't manage to identify and use
a VOR?
We can dream up all sorts of scenarios and reasons why a Cirrus
driver might be forced to resort to DA, I just think they are incredibly
unlikely.
There is not much else to say so best parked there. I respect
your point of view I just think the average private pilot could go several life times in a Cirrus and never need to resort to DA.
A and C
Those of you who think that the magenta line is a basic skill are living in
some sort of techno dream world, without the basic skill of DR navigation you should not be let anywhere near an aircraft, as to this situational awareness rubbish, likewise if you can't paint the picture in your head then you should not be flying.
These DR & SA skills are the very fundamentals of
piloting and without developing them you are putting your neck in a noose, that noose will tighten very quickly when the screens go blank and you are back to three little round dials to keep the aircraft upright and pointed away from the hills.
Those of you who think that the magenta line is a basic skill are living in
some sort of techno dream world, without the basic skill of DR navigation you should not be let anywhere near an aircraft, as to this situational awareness rubbish, likewise if you can't paint the picture in your head then you should not be flying.
These DR & SA skills are the very fundamentals of
piloting and without developing them you are putting your neck in a noose, that noose will tighten very quickly when the screens go blank and you are back to three little round dials to keep the aircraft upright and pointed away from the hills.
Fuji Abound
How long have you been flying ? because I think you are in La La land.
It was only as recent as 1992 that I and almost every other airline/military pilot were operating worldwide without GPS and the magenta line, in fact GPS trials were just starting around then and I still remember crossing oceans and navigating using DR, NDB's and star sights, we also had a Gulf War in progress and strangely GPS accuracy was very much degraded by the goverments as required, if you really believe that you can rely 100 percent on a GPS system that is goverment controlled without relying on basics for navigation then good luck, because that fancy Cirrus cockpit with glorified Garmins will be completely worthless, trust me.
Last edited by Above The Clouds; 13th Nov 2012 at 22:01.
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Above the Clouds
I do.
Two Atlantic crossing in yachts. Many hours around Europe.
A few thousand hours in light aircraft, Europe, America and the West Indies.
GPS nearly always on in the car, far too many hours, but I don't keep count.
Never lost the signal, not once, other than in the car under forest or tunnels (not too surprising), and once crossing Belgium but entirely down to my own incompetence.
As to 1992 you are back in the dark ages. I was flying then too. These days I have double redundant IFR certified panel mounted units with RAIM prediction, in the near future there is likely to be three constellations in operation operated by three different Governments and probably selectively available to give independent constellation redundancy. GPS approaches have been certified for some time and with caveats have even managed to pass the conservative Euro technocrats.
Its good enough for me, but each to their own. I taken part in a fair few air races (great fun, pen and pencil navigation only), I can use a sextant, so I am pretty happy with my alternate navigation skills, just never had to use them due to GPS failure yet.
We have had this discussion many times before and views are always polarized. We will never agree, all I can report is my hard evidence, and that is why I standby the chances of failure with redundancy being very rare. I dont make a habit of flying in war zones of course, and I accept there could be some international catastrophe or the impact of a massive solar flare that could play havoc with the GPS constellation but I am certainly not going to lose any sleep over it.
All I can add is your engine might quit on you in flight and I reckon the chances of me ending up without GPS is less likely.
Fortunately with a chute and reasonable DA skills while I am not happy for either to happen I think I can just about cope., but I wouldn't be troubled in the least if I didn't have the DA skills, a handheld GPS, falling back on VORs, falling back on NDBs (as long as they survive), falling back on radar vectors is one hell of a lot of falling back before I need to get out chart, pencil and ruler.
PS - and unusualy l I am feeling a bit tetchy because jibes about MS are just silly and detract from this forum which results in contributors not bothering to contribute. Its not clever and it would only have taken you a short while to read some of my posts to realise that while I may not be a BA training captain I do fly a bit and I do have a real world opinion, which just happens to be different from yours. I am also prepared to support my opinion with the hard facts of my own experience and explain why I have reached my conclusions. By all means debate the facts, that would be interesting, but don't debase the discussion with silly jibes.
I do.
Two Atlantic crossing in yachts. Many hours around Europe.
A few thousand hours in light aircraft, Europe, America and the West Indies.
GPS nearly always on in the car, far too many hours, but I don't keep count.
Never lost the signal, not once, other than in the car under forest or tunnels (not too surprising), and once crossing Belgium but entirely down to my own incompetence.
As to 1992 you are back in the dark ages. I was flying then too. These days I have double redundant IFR certified panel mounted units with RAIM prediction, in the near future there is likely to be three constellations in operation operated by three different Governments and probably selectively available to give independent constellation redundancy. GPS approaches have been certified for some time and with caveats have even managed to pass the conservative Euro technocrats.
Its good enough for me, but each to their own. I taken part in a fair few air races (great fun, pen and pencil navigation only), I can use a sextant, so I am pretty happy with my alternate navigation skills, just never had to use them due to GPS failure yet.
We have had this discussion many times before and views are always polarized. We will never agree, all I can report is my hard evidence, and that is why I standby the chances of failure with redundancy being very rare. I dont make a habit of flying in war zones of course, and I accept there could be some international catastrophe or the impact of a massive solar flare that could play havoc with the GPS constellation but I am certainly not going to lose any sleep over it.
All I can add is your engine might quit on you in flight and I reckon the chances of me ending up without GPS is less likely.
Fortunately with a chute and reasonable DA skills while I am not happy for either to happen I think I can just about cope., but I wouldn't be troubled in the least if I didn't have the DA skills, a handheld GPS, falling back on VORs, falling back on NDBs (as long as they survive), falling back on radar vectors is one hell of a lot of falling back before I need to get out chart, pencil and ruler.
PS - and unusualy l I am feeling a bit tetchy because jibes about MS are just silly and detract from this forum which results in contributors not bothering to contribute. Its not clever and it would only have taken you a short while to read some of my posts to realise that while I may not be a BA training captain I do fly a bit and I do have a real world opinion, which just happens to be different from yours. I am also prepared to support my opinion with the hard facts of my own experience and explain why I have reached my conclusions. By all means debate the facts, that would be interesting, but don't debase the discussion with silly jibes.
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 13th Nov 2012 at 21:56.
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they still won't work when the off switch is utilized by a goverment.
Your world is clearly very different from mine. I dont fly military aircraft (well not in commission at any rate
) and I certainly dont fly in war zones (as I said earlier). I am sure it is very interesting but I doubt it is either relevant or of much interest to most private GA pilots in this forum. For that reason it is very difficult to see the relevance of your world to mine. I am guessing even in your world you might access those sources of real time GPS "interruption", perhaps using an Iridium 'phone as doubtless there arent any other means of communication.As to the car and tunnels that is not what I said and I am aware of the predictive technology in car sat navs.
PS as to aircraft being light years ahead of our discussions I very much doubt that. I do actually know and fly with people who are at the cutting edge of civil avionics and they are overwhelmingly impressed with the kit in a Cirrus. That is not to say that I am unaware of the redundancy and other technology employed in the aircraft you have in mind, but that doesn't alter the level of redundancy I have and the extreme remoteness of me finding my self without GPS.
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 13th Nov 2012 at 22:11.
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Anyway, thanks for removing the MS remarks.
Forgive me its late in the day, I respect your opinion, its just not a real world experience I can share (in terms of having experienced a GPS failure).
Forgive me its late in the day, I respect your opinion, its just not a real world experience I can share (in terms of having experienced a GPS failure).
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PA28 at Liverpool
Odai
Have you looked at joining the Azure flying club and flying the PA28 at Liverpool? I fly with Azure at Cranfield, and the planes are kept in good condition.(Although one is being repaired at present following an accident
).
£150 to join / annual membership, then £115 per tacho hour wet. There is no longer any requirement to have a connection with Thomson.
Azure Flying Club » Liverpool
Have you looked at joining the Azure flying club and flying the PA28 at Liverpool? I fly with Azure at Cranfield, and the planes are kept in good condition.(Although one is being repaired at present following an accident
).£150 to join / annual membership, then £115 per tacho hour wet. There is no longer any requirement to have a connection with Thomson.
Azure Flying Club » Liverpool
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Out of interest.
"Has the United States ever turned off GPS for military purposes?
No. Since it was declared operational in 1995, the Global Positioning System has never been deactivated, despite U.S. involvement in wars, anti-terrorism, and other military activities.
Millions of users around the world have been monitoring and recording real-time GPS performance on a continuous basis since its inception. If the civilian GPS service had ever been interrupted by its operators, the evidence would be obvious and widespread. No such evidence exists."
Source: US government
"Has the United States ever turned off GPS for military purposes?
No. Since it was declared operational in 1995, the Global Positioning System has never been deactivated, despite U.S. involvement in wars, anti-terrorism, and other military activities.
Millions of users around the world have been monitoring and recording real-time GPS performance on a continuous basis since its inception. If the civilian GPS service had ever been interrupted by its operators, the evidence would be obvious and widespread. No such evidence exists."
Source: US government
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What is becoming very apparent in current pilot training is reliance on fancy GPS gadets,
No one here has claimed that one should "rely on GPS 100 percent". However, it would be foolish to pretend that wonderful tool doesn't exist.
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No one is saying that these modern systems are not a great addition to flight safety but as a addition to solid handling skills not to make up for a lack of them
! BTW I am still here for those who may think I have gone : )
Pace
! BTW I am still here for those who may think I have gone : )
Pace
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It is quite true that it is more likely that the engine will quit than the GPS.
Had several GPS go tits up, combinations of antenna cable/ antenna or power issues and a display failure on a G530. A couple of times had to drop out of BRNAV airspace to continue the trip.
Been jammed and lost signal more times than I can remember.
you can continue dealing with them 
your obviously well practised.
As I recall, the GPS signal was degraded by the US during the first world war by about 100 metres - significant for IMC but not VMC. Haven't there been some recent NOTAMs about local military interference with GPS in the UK?
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I transitioned to a Cirrus when I had done a total of 65 hours on a Robin HR 200 and now have about 900 Cirrus hours. If you are thinking about getting a Cirrus, I suggest three things:
Firstly, talk to a Cirrus Standardised Instructor Program accredited instructor. The one I used was John Page at TAA Denham who is one of the very best and who spent a good amount of time on the phone with me before I decided to take the plunge. I am sure there are others in the UK as well although I have not flown with any other in the UK.
Do NOT compromise on this, I am not for a moment suggesting that other instructors are not very good but the CSIP program has been very carefully put together and has been specifically tailored for Cirrus pilots and the CSIP instructors are best qualified to deliver it.
Secondly, join COPA (Cirrus Owners and Pilots Association). Even if you don't end up with a SR2X, you will learn a huge amount. You can take an initial look at their forums and ask some questions as a guest without having to pay anything.
Thirdly, if your mission profile justifies a Cirrus, think hard about getting an IR. You can fly it VFR with no problems, but an IR allows you to exploit its capabilities fully.
Personally, I found that the Cirrus was a bit of a jump after the Robin HR 200 in which I did my PPL. When I did the conversion training, before I got my IR, even concentrating on the basics, I found that there is a lot to learn. That said, it was absolutely worth it.
Best of luck!
Firstly, talk to a Cirrus Standardised Instructor Program accredited instructor. The one I used was John Page at TAA Denham who is one of the very best and who spent a good amount of time on the phone with me before I decided to take the plunge. I am sure there are others in the UK as well although I have not flown with any other in the UK.
Do NOT compromise on this, I am not for a moment suggesting that other instructors are not very good but the CSIP program has been very carefully put together and has been specifically tailored for Cirrus pilots and the CSIP instructors are best qualified to deliver it.
Secondly, join COPA (Cirrus Owners and Pilots Association). Even if you don't end up with a SR2X, you will learn a huge amount. You can take an initial look at their forums and ask some questions as a guest without having to pay anything.
Thirdly, if your mission profile justifies a Cirrus, think hard about getting an IR. You can fly it VFR with no problems, but an IR allows you to exploit its capabilities fully.
Personally, I found that the Cirrus was a bit of a jump after the Robin HR 200 in which I did my PPL. When I did the conversion training, before I got my IR, even concentrating on the basics, I found that there is a lot to learn. That said, it was absolutely worth it.
Best of luck!
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Let's all use a sextant. Come on - GPS is incredibly reliable. Of course you need basic skills but pretending that GPS is always on the brink of failure is absurd.
I really think this attitude is part of the problem with IR teaching and exams in the UK. Just because it was good enough for pilots during the Battle of Britain doesn't make it appropriate for us today.
I really think this attitude is part of the problem with IR teaching and exams in the UK. Just because it was good enough for pilots during the Battle of Britain doesn't make it appropriate for us today.
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Depends which bit of the UK your in how often it gets jammed
Last year it was brought up in parlament that the fishermen were getting pissed off that the days they could put to sea they couldn't find the fishing grounds due to jamming. The mil had to stop jamming I think. It was in the Scotsman or the Herald.
Of course we use it everyday and flying an auld heap with 25 year old wiring we have more chance of chaffed wires and other gremilins taking it out.
Its the other associated skills which are lost as well. If I want a center fix and I am heading towards an airport I don't need to plug it in the box I just use the 1 in 60 rule and a bit of geometry. Takes under a second to work out the heading.
GPS is very good and I use it everyday. If it goes tits up, it really isn't a hassell we still get to where we are going safely with very little fuss. The magenta line borgs struggle and usually end up cacking themselves. Even had one who thought loosing the GPS was worthy of a mayday.
Last year it was brought up in parlament that the fishermen were getting pissed off that the days they could put to sea they couldn't find the fishing grounds due to jamming. The mil had to stop jamming I think. It was in the Scotsman or the Herald.
Of course we use it everyday and flying an auld heap with 25 year old wiring we have more chance of chaffed wires and other gremilins taking it out.
Its the other associated skills which are lost as well. If I want a center fix and I am heading towards an airport I don't need to plug it in the box I just use the 1 in 60 rule and a bit of geometry. Takes under a second to work out the heading.
GPS is very good and I use it everyday. If it goes tits up, it really isn't a hassell we still get to where we are going safely with very little fuss. The magenta line borgs struggle and usually end up cacking themselves. Even had one who thought loosing the GPS was worthy of a mayday.
I find it discouraging that every conversation on GPS quickly degenerates into two polar opposites. So either you believe
1) "Real" pilots would never use a GPS because real pilots should plan and fly every flight using only a magnetic compass, a map, and a watch. or
2) Only "fools" bother with any of that nav rubbish taught in flight training. The magic box will get me where ever I need to go.
But there are facts that can't be denied. GPS provides instant and near perfect present position information, track and ground speed. It is ubiquitous, won't go away and has compelling value as an aid to navigation. Every ANS in the world is moving to a GNSS as the primary means of navigation
It would seem to me that the missing piece is a rational and unemotional discussion about what the above means and how flight training needs to evolve to ensure that fundamental navigational principals are understood and more importantly how that knowledge is applied when using GPS.
Instead of more pedantry about the "right" way to fill in the PLOG, how about a discussion about what "situational awareness" means with a GPS driven moving map and how to apply it to real world navigational challenges. Or how about teaching how to determine your task priorities in a system with 30 or 40 different possible screens each one giving different information....information that may be absolutely vital in some circumstances and utterly useless in others ?
Finally I have had 2 engine failures in MEP's and one GPS failure. I handled both emergencies in the same way.......by utilizing the other engine/my portable GPS to safely get to where I needed to go. I can also say that the nearest airport GPS probably saved my life one day when I was facing sudden unforecast bad weather and was low on fuel.
1) "Real" pilots would never use a GPS because real pilots should plan and fly every flight using only a magnetic compass, a map, and a watch. or
2) Only "fools" bother with any of that nav rubbish taught in flight training. The magic box will get me where ever I need to go.
But there are facts that can't be denied. GPS provides instant and near perfect present position information, track and ground speed. It is ubiquitous, won't go away and has compelling value as an aid to navigation. Every ANS in the world is moving to a GNSS as the primary means of navigation
It would seem to me that the missing piece is a rational and unemotional discussion about what the above means and how flight training needs to evolve to ensure that fundamental navigational principals are understood and more importantly how that knowledge is applied when using GPS.
Instead of more pedantry about the "right" way to fill in the PLOG, how about a discussion about what "situational awareness" means with a GPS driven moving map and how to apply it to real world navigational challenges. Or how about teaching how to determine your task priorities in a system with 30 or 40 different possible screens each one giving different information....information that may be absolutely vital in some circumstances and utterly useless in others ?
Finally I have had 2 engine failures in MEP's and one GPS failure. I handled both emergencies in the same way.......by utilizing the other engine/my portable GPS to safely get to where I needed to go. I can also say that the nearest airport GPS probably saved my life one day when I was facing sudden unforecast bad weather and was low on fuel.
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 15th Nov 2012 at 03:37.