Newbie looking to upgrade to Cirrus
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Fuji
It only takes the failure of one system to kill three of your navigation systems and yours is a very northern Europe assumption that radar will be avalable to help you.
What the basic skills do is give you the way to stay alive and calmly get a grip of the situation, without these skills panic is likely to take over and the situation spiral out of control............. Oh I guess there is always the chute to fall back on ! And some might that due to lack of basic skills it has already come to this.
What the basic skills do is give you the way to stay alive and calmly get a grip of the situation, without these skills panic is likely to take over and the situation spiral out of control............. Oh I guess there is always the chute to fall back on ! And some might that due to lack of basic skills it has already come to this.
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The Cirrus is a great aeroplane; if you're loaded.
All the knobs and buttons actually make it more difficult to fly well IMHO but one fact often overlooked is that you'll find passengers much more willing to get in a Cirrus than in a PA28 or the like.
Price is the only reason I no longer fly one.
All the knobs and buttons actually make it more difficult to fly well IMHO but one fact often overlooked is that you'll find passengers much more willing to get in a Cirrus than in a PA28 or the like.
Price is the only reason I no longer fly one.
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These DA & SA skills are the very fundamentals of piloting and without developing
Reading skills are pretty important, too. Nobody ever claimed otherwise.
Reading skills are pretty important, too. Nobody ever claimed otherwise.
Last edited by thborchert; 13th Nov 2012 at 07:57.
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Odai,
Not sure I get it: You want to build hours, yet complain about ten hours of training. Hmm. Seems a great way to build hours and learn something at the same time. If you get bored in hour 5, you can spend the rest flying to neat places.
Not sure I get it: You want to build hours, yet complain about ten hours of training. Hmm. Seems a great way to build hours and learn something at the same time. If you get bored in hour 5, you can spend the rest flying to neat places.
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Thborchert
There we go..... I make the point about being overly reliant on automation, only diference is the auto correct on the iPad that auto selects the wrong letters is not going to kill me !
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A and C just to reiterate I don't disagree with you and I have made a very European assumption about radar, albeit you would receive an equally good service in the States.
People flying Cirrus are very rarely operating outside this environment and while I dont doubt it is possible to conceive sufficient system failure to compromise the on board navigation with some sensible backups in reality I doubt there would ever be a need to resort to DA.
I am not disputing your comments, just that on a Cirrus the analogy you give with your A320 is unlikely in the extreme and therefore if you happen to be such a dedicated follower of the purple line I dont think you should ever find yourself in this situation.
and yes, if all else fails you could always float down and read the traffic signs.
People flying Cirrus are very rarely operating outside this environment and while I dont doubt it is possible to conceive sufficient system failure to compromise the on board navigation with some sensible backups in reality I doubt there would ever be a need to resort to DA.
I am not disputing your comments, just that on a Cirrus the analogy you give with your A320 is unlikely in the extreme and therefore if you happen to be such a dedicated follower of the purple line I dont think you should ever find yourself in this situation.
and yes, if all else fails you could always float down and read the traffic signs.
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What is landing too fast if not bad handling skills ?
Too much is made of hot ship singles!
Pilots were soloed in Spirfires at a handful of hours in the last war!
It was possible to do a complete PPL on a twin!
More should be placed on handling skills and displays confined to a simulator firmly on the ground.
Pace
Too much is made of hot ship singles!
Pilots were soloed in Spirfires at a handful of hours in the last war!
It was possible to do a complete PPL on a twin!
More should be placed on handling skills and displays confined to a simulator firmly on the ground.
Pace
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Fuji
What I said was that you had taken a very Northern European assumption, I compleatly agree with you about the radar cover in Northern Europle and the USA.
The problems come when the newish Cirrus pilot ventures three hours south.
I can't count the number of times when crusing above FL300 I have listened to northern European registered light aircraft trying to contact ATC units, I usually chip in and offer a relay. Nine times out of ten that ATC unit suddenly starts receiving the light aircraft transmission when they know there is no way of avoiding talking to them !
In that environment only a few hours flying away from the UK the pilot has to be much more self reliant and if the worst happens all they have to fall back on is the basic pilotage skills.
The problems come when the newish Cirrus pilot ventures three hours south.
I can't count the number of times when crusing above FL300 I have listened to northern European registered light aircraft trying to contact ATC units, I usually chip in and offer a relay. Nine times out of ten that ATC unit suddenly starts receiving the light aircraft transmission when they know there is no way of avoiding talking to them !
In that environment only a few hours flying away from the UK the pilot has to be much more self reliant and if the worst happens all they have to fall back on is the basic pilotage skills.
Last edited by A and C; 13th Nov 2012 at 08:24.
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Pace
What is landing too fast if not bad handling skills ?
Too much is made of hot ship singles!
Pilots were soloed in Spirfires at a handful of hours in
the last war!It was possible to do a complete PPL on a twin!
More should be placed on handling skills and displays confined to a simulator firmly on the ground.
What is landing too fast if not bad handling skills ?
Too much is made of hot ship singles!
Pilots were soloed in Spirfires at a handful of hours in
the last war!It was possible to do a complete PPL on a twin!
More should be placed on handling skills and displays confined to a simulator firmly on the ground.
For those of you that seem to think a Cirrus is a hot ship really need to get in touch with reality, it is a single piston aircraft that is a few knots faster than what you learn't to fly on with a few fancy avionics that are nothing more than glorified Gamin GPS's.
How do you think people convert on to new types with only a single seat? you read the manuals, get briefed by an instructor and use the basic flying skills that you were taught and I am not talking about single piston GA aircraft that are all basically similiar with simple systems.
I would strongly suggest that if you cannot read the flight manual and fly a Cirrus VFR the way you were taught to using basics techniques without having to use the magenta line, then you should go back to the flying school that did your PPL and get your money back.
Last edited by Above The Clouds; 13th Nov 2012 at 10:35.
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Get yourself a Taylor Monoplane. Cheap as chips and will keep you on your toes
About to fly one myself for the first time, 1455 hours and 7 years later than I should have.
h
About to fly one myself for the first time, 1455 hours and 7 years later than I should have.
h
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No the Cirrus is a great choice and one I am hoping to block buy some hours on soon.
We have had many discussions on the aircraft and the chute is a real plus if treated with respect.
The point here is that the aircraft is a fixed gear single! ok its a bit slippery hence more reason to have piloting skills which means nailing the speeds.
The mooney was considered difficult by some! It was also slippery and a challenge to some on landing due to the fact that if the aircraft was fast it floated forever in ground effect.
Hence both aircraft need good handling skills and then they will not be a problem!
The rest ? The Candy needs learning not in the aircraft unless you have money to burn but in the classroom on a sim.
10 hours demanded by some stinks of artificial operator created insurance requirements to generate £2000 of revenue.
Pace
We have had many discussions on the aircraft and the chute is a real plus if treated with respect.
The point here is that the aircraft is a fixed gear single! ok its a bit slippery hence more reason to have piloting skills which means nailing the speeds.
The mooney was considered difficult by some! It was also slippery and a challenge to some on landing due to the fact that if the aircraft was fast it floated forever in ground effect.
Hence both aircraft need good handling skills and then they will not be a problem!
The rest ? The Candy needs learning not in the aircraft unless you have money to burn but in the classroom on a sim.
10 hours demanded by some stinks of artificial operator created insurance requirements to generate £2000 of revenue.
Pace
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Why write in an aggressive manner?
Thread Starter
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Fatmanmedia, unfortunately at this stage purchasing an aircraft (or even a share in one) is out of the question due to cost. 
A and C, thank you again for taking the time to post your opinions and experiences - much appreciated. However, I did mention in my post that I do intend to keep my dead reckoning skills sharp and use them in conjunction with more modern methods to maintain situational awareness and have something to fall back on in case the proverbial fecal matter hits the fan. Not to mention that I'd need to demonstrate I can still do it when it's time for my CPL training, as you said.
However, I see no sense in not making use of the advanced technology when it is available to you. In fact, I'd say pilots should go to pains to aquire the tech when it isn't already available (for example, taking a handheld GPS when flying in a steam gauge cockpit). Such tech will keep your flying more accurate and therefore safer (less likely to be unsure of position, stray into CAS etc).
No matter how good your dead reckoning skills become, it is still more innaccurate/error prone than something like a GPS.
Sorry, should have made myself clearer. What I'm getting at is that the 10 hours training required by the insurance for the Cirrus will not count towards the solo time requirement for starting commercial training (not PIC time). It would also be at a higher rate (I think +£50 per hour for an instructor).
I'm still trying to find other suitable aircraft to fly in my local area but not having much luck. In addition, I am not sure what the situation is with even the Cirrus. I intended to purchase a no equity share (the only way to make it affordable) from Aircraft Grouping at Blackpool, but considering the criminal charges just made against the owner I don't know if making a long term investment there (in the form of a deposit) is a good idea anymore. It is unfortunate, as, considering the lack of other options, the Cirrus was looking like my best bet despite the pricey initial costs.
Any other ideas?
The main problem here is not finding a model that would suit my requirements, but rather an example of one with availability at an airfield that isn't on the other side of the country to me.
A and C, thank you again for taking the time to post your opinions and experiences - much appreciated. However, I did mention in my post that I do intend to keep my dead reckoning skills sharp and use them in conjunction with more modern methods to maintain situational awareness and have something to fall back on in case the proverbial fecal matter hits the fan. Not to mention that I'd need to demonstrate I can still do it when it's time for my CPL training, as you said.
However, I see no sense in not making use of the advanced technology when it is available to you. In fact, I'd say pilots should go to pains to aquire the tech when it isn't already available (for example, taking a handheld GPS when flying in a steam gauge cockpit). Such tech will keep your flying more accurate and therefore safer (less likely to be unsure of position, stray into CAS etc).
No matter how good your dead reckoning skills become, it is still more innaccurate/error prone than something like a GPS.
Originally Posted by thborchert
Odai,
Not sure I get it: You want to build hours, yet complain about ten hours of training. Hmm. Seems a great way to build hours and learn something at the same time. If you get bored in hour 5, you can spend the rest flying to neat places.
Not sure I get it: You want to build hours, yet complain about ten hours of training. Hmm. Seems a great way to build hours and learn something at the same time. If you get bored in hour 5, you can spend the rest flying to neat places.
I'm still trying to find other suitable aircraft to fly in my local area but not having much luck. In addition, I am not sure what the situation is with even the Cirrus. I intended to purchase a no equity share (the only way to make it affordable) from Aircraft Grouping at Blackpool, but considering the criminal charges just made against the owner I don't know if making a long term investment there (in the form of a deposit) is a good idea anymore. It is unfortunate, as, considering the lack of other options, the Cirrus was looking like my best bet despite the pricey initial costs.
Any other ideas?
The main problem here is not finding a model that would suit my requirements, but rather an example of one with availability at an airfield that isn't on the other side of the country to me.
Last edited by Odai; 13th Nov 2012 at 14:00.
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A and C
but if you are a devotee of the purple line that is where a GPS in your flight bag comes in. Sorry to persist but I have never heard of both 430s on a Cirrus and the GPS in the flight bag simultaneously failing. They could, I just don't think its happened yet and not expecting to read a report of it happening any time soon.
Unlike the G1000 the 430s drive the Avidyne displays and the GPSs are not hidden behind the panel - they both function as stand alone instruments. There is no rebooting in flight - you can turn them off and on again and they will establish a position almost instantly just like the moving map in your flight bag for a few hundreds of quid.
Things really have moved on. In the days of a single panel GPS or a hand held reliant on batteries sods law is you would be spot on, but its not like that any more. I dont know if you have flown in a Cirrus but there is a lot more redundancy, duplication and kit than you might imagine.
In that environment only a few hours flying away from the UK the pilot has to be much more self reliant and if the worst happens all they have to fall back on is the basic pilotage skills.
Unlike the G1000 the 430s drive the Avidyne displays and the GPSs are not hidden behind the panel - they both function as stand alone instruments. There is no rebooting in flight - you can turn them off and on again and they will establish a position almost instantly just like the moving map in your flight bag for a few hundreds of quid.
Things really have moved on. In the days of a single panel GPS or a hand held reliant on batteries sods law is you would be spot on, but its not like that any more. I dont know if you have flown in a Cirrus but there is a lot more redundancy, duplication and kit than you might imagine.
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Sorry to persist but I have never heard of both 430s on a Cirrus and the GPS in the flight bag simultaneously failing.
Did anybody lose signal or are the military just crap at it?
D.O.
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Fuji
I agree about the reliability of the modern GPS receivers, what I was trying to get at is what happens if the GPS satellite system fails or is shut down probably by a criminal act or for military reasons.
It matters not if you have one or ten GPS units if it is the satellite system that is at fault.
It matters not if you have one or ten GPS units if it is the satellite system that is at fault.
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Odai
It might be worth considering something outside of your current thinking for hour building. It doesn't matter how fast you're flying - an hour at 80mph is the same as an hour at 140mph... But the cost of an hour is considerably less at 80mph than it is at 140mph, generally.
A share in a simple aeroplane such as a C152 can be around £5000, with monthlies at £80 and hourly rates at around £60ph. When you sell out, if you look after the aeroplane, you get that £5k back.
Being even more "daring", my original member share in a permit aeroplane was£1000, with monthlies at £60 and hourly rates of £40ph. There was no glass cockpit, but I did get to do plenty of cheap and fun flying.
Yes, a Cirrus is very swish and has lots of mod cons and capability, but it's not a poor man's aeroplane. There's plenty of time for you to fly fancy stuff once you've built some inexpensive experience. The additional benefit is that those additional inexpensive hours translate to reduced insurance costs. Think of it a little like the cheap banger we usually get to drive when we first pass our driving test. It might not have electric windows, but it does the job, and you can move onto the shiny stuff in time.
Just a thought, that's all. Enjoy whatever it is that you choose to fly...
It might be worth considering something outside of your current thinking for hour building. It doesn't matter how fast you're flying - an hour at 80mph is the same as an hour at 140mph... But the cost of an hour is considerably less at 80mph than it is at 140mph, generally.
A share in a simple aeroplane such as a C152 can be around £5000, with monthlies at £80 and hourly rates at around £60ph. When you sell out, if you look after the aeroplane, you get that £5k back.
Being even more "daring", my original member share in a permit aeroplane was£1000, with monthlies at £60 and hourly rates of £40ph. There was no glass cockpit, but I did get to do plenty of cheap and fun flying.
Yes, a Cirrus is very swish and has lots of mod cons and capability, but it's not a poor man's aeroplane. There's plenty of time for you to fly fancy stuff once you've built some inexpensive experience. The additional benefit is that those additional inexpensive hours translate to reduced insurance costs. Think of it a little like the cheap banger we usually get to drive when we first pass our driving test. It might not have electric windows, but it does the job, and you can move onto the shiny stuff in time.
Just a thought, that's all. Enjoy whatever it is that you choose to fly...
