Newbie looking to upgrade to Cirrus

[peterh337]

I find it discouraging that every conversation on GPS quickly degenerates into two polar opposites

Always the way in the UK - presumably due to many years of rabidly anti-GPS flight training.

But the schools are anyway against anything which they would have to spend money on if they had to teach it. They are in business to sell flying hours (etc). They are not in business to train pilots to fly from A to B.

And if you advocate training to fly from A to B you get a load of pilots (usually flying taildraggers, etc) jumping on you saying they fly for fun.

You can't win

Most people here have long given up posting on "GPS" threads.

[FlyingStone]

GPS, autopilot, flight director, VOR, ILS, DME, iPad - who needs all this modern non-sense, totally unrelated to flying? Aircraft flies even without electrical system, no need to complicate stuff.

If we don't need the above, than probably we don't need PPRuNe, other forums, computers, mobile phones, telephones, airmail. If human race was able to survive with sending smoke signals and using mail that needed months to get to destination, why are we complicating our lives with all this modern nonsense?

[AN2 Driver]

BPF I could not agree more.

Most of us these days have several GPS devices on board and I have not ever seen them all fail at the same time. My aircraft has a inbuilt one which has never yet lost reception, I do carry a portable moving map device which quits from time to time due to antenna placement but if I would really need it, both my cellphone and my EFB can be used as GPS devices and have relevant software (Pocketfms) on them. That is 4 devices which would all need to fail simultaneously before a fall back scenario where I'd have to resort to the paper maps and stopwatch or, behold, my own eyes.

Actually, I do fly myself in order to enjoy what I am doing and part of that is watching the scenery, identifying landmarks and learn about the geography of the places I visit beyond those I absolutely need to know for the flight in question. GPS however is a great help with that too.

Rather then constantly opposing those changes for everyday operations, we should learn how to use those devices so that they are a help and not a burden, that is know how to use them and how to take the best information out of them without too much disctraction. But use them we should. They definitly add a lot in terms of exactness of navigation and therefore safety.

Best regards
AN2

[A and C]

Anti GPS ? Who ! Me!

I think that my attitude in support of basic skills has been misinterpreted as one how anti GPS, that I am not and had an IFR GPS fitted in my aircraft while most on this forum were messing about with the first of the hand held GPS units ( and the electrical spaghetti that came with them)

I am anti those who sit fat dumb and happy behind a GPS following the magenta line with the blind faith that one normally associates with followers of strange religious cults.

[Fuji Abound]

I am anti those who sit fat dumb and happy behind a GPS following the magenta line with the blind faith that one normally associates with followers of strange religious cults.

A and C

I know, but as you say the world has changed.

In some respects why shouldn't the next generation sit fat and dumb?

I wouldn't want to navigate with a single GPS but with so many glass cockpits now fitted with twin GPS, and the other usual radio nav. aids I can see pilots flying a lifetime never having to resort to traditional navigation. Perhaps training time is far better spent making certain they now how to use the technology, understand its limits, and grasp what to do when it fails.

Its a brave new world.

[A and C]

Fuji

Quote "understand its limits and know what to do when it fails"

Precisely !!! It's called DR navigation.

[peterh337]

In IMC?

Not so easy

You can fly WW1-style if you throw away most of your mission capability, but then you will probably chuck in flying for good, because you can drive to where you are going.

[Fuji Abound]

A and C

I rather had in mind falling back on VORs, NDBs, hand held GPS, radar vectors, DM, London D and D or equivalent, but I guess you knew that. I would personally prefer any go places ifr pilot to be rock solid in those skills first.

[Bristol1965]

Odai,

It appears there are a number of inconsistencies about Cirrus that really don't have a valid foundation:

1) Doors, if the doors are maintained and operated as per Manufacturer's recommendation, they shouldn't open in flight. For those of you who have had this problem, please discuss it with your maintenance organisation. They must give you a valid reason.

2) Cirrus don't specify an exact training hours. You are given 7 sortie's to carry out, you may be able to do them in 2 hours, or 15 hours. You will not be forced to do the hours un-necessarily. At the end of the day, you need to learn and operate the aircraft, including dealing with emergencies. There is also the question of insurance company requirement and that will depend on the supplier of your aircraft.

3) If you are to hand fly a Cirrus (or similar performance aircraft), there is a lot more to learn and develop, then you will ever get from a PA28 or C152. The Cirrus control stick moves less than half the movement of a PA28 or a C152, the aircraft is also much faster, hence much finer input and eventually better control.

4) The Cirrus is probably the easiest aircraft to fly, landing it is also more natural and easy once you learn the aircraft's behaviour. If the aircraft is taught properly, many of the landing issues that have been mentioned shouldn't have happened. Cirrus is a natural aircraft, she will do what you want her to do, even if it is beyond her limit, if you want the aircraft to bounce off the ground whilst landing, she will do it as per your input/intention!!!

5) Most Cirrus aircrafts are equipped with TCAS, Storm Scope, IFR charts, Ground proximity warning system, etc, most of these are safety equipment that can save lives.

6) And to keep those friends of yours on this forum, who are against GPS happy, well; don't use them, you can set the MFD to display a non map screen i.e. engine instrument page, and do the same with the two GPSs, so here we go, you can hand fly the aircraft with no navigational aids at 140kts and practice your navigational skill?

7) As Jonazerno suggested, Cirrus has its own training syllabus (CSIP) and will enhance your PPL skill/experience.

8) Your nearest Cirrus transition training provider is in Gloucestershire airport.

For those of you who rightly insist on maintaining navigational skill, there are times you do need other aids, for example when you fly IFR or on instrument, there may not be any ground reference, across the sea (unless you are Charles Lindbergh), over mountain or flying at night. so everything really needs to be considered in its own perspective.

OADI, here is a question for you:

What is the reason behind your hour building? Are you trying to proceed to Commercial flying?

[Odai]

Many thanks again for all the advice, much appreciated.

Just to be clear, I am not looking to buy at the moment. At the most, I'd be looking to join a non-equity group or a club such as the one Winhern suggested.

The point has been made that aircraft such as the Cirrus are excessive for what I want to do, hour building. The reasons I am after such an aircraft are that the higher airspeeds will result in more challenging hand flying and basic navigation, I am after experience with more advanced avionics (not to mention that such aircraft tend to be newer and hence more comfortable to fly in on long trips), in addition of course to it being a lot more fun.

The Cirrus would have been my first choice had the initial training requirements not been so expensive. In addition, I'm having difficulty getting a response from the group responsible for it.

At the moment, one possibility is to maybe try and get time in the Aquila A210s at Blackpool. At 120 KIAS cruise, they are a nice step up from the PA28s and being lighter aircraft I'd assume they are 'twitchier' and therefore more demanding to fly. I could then also try and locate a glass cockpit PA28/172 or similar for flying friends/family etc. I could stick to this until I have gained more experience and hopefully also the IMCR (which I'm aiming to start after accruing the necessary prerequisites). I could then re-evaluate my options which may by then will have improved in terms of aircraft availability. Hopefully I'd then be able to find the high performance four seater SEP I'm after.

Which brings me to my next point - how do I go about finding groups/clubs etc willing to hire out their airplanes at airfields in my area? Up until now I'm simply been googling for FTOs/schools at my local fields (Liverpool, Barton, Blackpool, Woodvale, Hawarden) and checked to see if they're willing to hire out their fleet to PPLs. Is there a more efficient way of doing this? There is also the likes of Aircraft Grouping Ltd but they seem to be in some sort of difficulty and they are the only example of that kind of venture I've been able to find.

I've found this from a quick search:

Free aviation classified adverts

But there doesn't seem to be that many relevant results.

Any ideas?

[Odai]

Bristol1965, apologies, I missed your excellent post.

Those are all great points and I appreciate your input.

The reason for my hour building would be to accrue the necessary experience for advanced ratings, including the IMC, and eventually commercial training as you mentioned.

If I could find an affordable Cirrus near me, then I would probably move straight onto that.

[fwjc]

Odai - it's your money, so spend it as you will. I'm glad not everyone is scraping together their last few pennies to fly, and that you can afford to splash out.

But do bear in mind that a) most commercial aircraft are not "twitchy" or "demanding", at least from a hands on perspective and b) if you really do want to learn to fly twitchy stuff that demands accurate flying, go for tailwheel. If that's too easy for you go for something sporty like a Pitts or Christen Eagle. I guarantee you'll find that challenging and it will teach you how to really fly an aeroplane. Someone I know has a job offer on the basis of knowing what his feet are for, and knowing how to really fly safely. Admittedly it wasn't with Ryanair, but that's another story.

However I get the impression that you've already made your mind up to fly something more expensive, quicker and with more bells and whistles (although I'm not sure if you even have the qualifications to use these right now). As I say, clearly you have plenty of money and are not so fussed about getting quality hours, cheaply. Even a mix of half and half would be better. Anyway, hope the hour building and training goes well. There's a thread on here somewhere, I think, that talks about the most useful things to do with hour building which is worth looking at. I seem to recall that it's in the Wannabes section under Training.

[Bristol1965]

ODAI,

If I was in your position, I would get my PPL out of the way. Then if you can, do the night rating if you haven't already done it as part of your PPL. Next the solo hours that you need before commencing your IMC(R) and then the IMC.

For hour building you have some options,

1) Rent an aircraft from a club, i.e. the Aquila from Aircraft Grouping.

2) Lease an aircraft for a short period of time (i.e. C152).

3) Buy into a group who operates a reasonable aircraft.

4) Buy a block hours in a non equity group, like the SR20 in Gloucestershire.

I have a feeling the club in Gloucestershire may be able to help you.

[Odai]

Hey fwjc,

Apologies if I gave that impression, it's not what I intended.

What I am trying to do is to keep the cost to a minimum as I certainly don't have much to 'splash out' with, but at the same time get the most out of my pre-CPL hour building (thinking both in terms of my skills and, if I decide on that route, employability). Unfortunately, I just don't see this happening if I stick to the likes of the cheapest 152s etc.

[mad_jock]

What you do your hour building in is not going to effect your employability.

In fact a broad range of strange types tail wheel etc will pull the eye more than a plastic pig state of the art job.

[fwjc]

MJ - not sure what you mean by the idea of tailwheel "pulling" the eye, but if you mean that it's a negative thing, I thing it's horses for courses. I only mentioned it because the OP wanted more something more challenging to fly, and that can be a cheaper way to achieve it.
For most people wanting to hour build, I would recommend much the same as Bristol1965 - buy block hours on something relatively simple and inexpensive, making sure you have at least some instruments if possible.
Friends have done this with a C152 (buying shares for a few months), a Slingsby (shares again), a PA28 (non-capital shares) and a Grob115 (block hours). I also know people who couldn't afford this who got shares in a Jodel.
I still recommend looking at the thread on what to do with your hours, but as MJ says initially, it doesn't matter what you hour build on, as long as it's constructively done.

[Pace]

If someone wants to block buy hours they will choose the aircraft to fit their budget?
If they are lucky enough to afford the Cirrus then all well and good but for an hour builder for not a lot more maybe multi engine time would be more beneficial ?
If its single time then a more basic aircraft apart from being cheaper will help hone basic flying skills more than an all singing and dancing dream machine?

Pace

[Pace]

M Berger

I am afraid your SEP time unless its turbine SEP is not going to light the fires of any prospective employer.
Jet Time YES Turboprop YES Multi engine piston (Maybe YES) SEP and its low life hours to a prospective employer

Pace

[Thud105]

"I am afraid your SEP time unless its turbine SEP is not going to light the fires of any prospective employer."
What's 'turbine SEP'? I thought the P in SEP meant 'Piston'.

[Bristol1965]

In turbine world, SEP = Single engine Prop i.e. Piper Meridian or Jet Prop (PA46), as an alternative to single engine gas turbine.