Newbie looking to upgrade to Cirrus
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To be honest I was never allowed to use the whizz wheel in both commercial and IR training and haven't had to use it since unless PPL instructing.
I got taught to work out your max drift and then use the clock factoring to work out your drift then use percentages to work out the GS.
In the air I mostly use the 1 in 60 rule.
And some PPL's are actually very switched on with DR and would put some commercials to shame. Its a perishable skill though and if its not exercised you will make stupid mistakes. Which is why I prefer to exercise my mind then check it against the GPS and if they disagree I check both again. The rare times they don't agree its a 50/50 between me getting my lefts and right muddled and the gps being pointed towards somewhere in the middle of china.
Oh and I have twice avoided busting airspace by having the NAV radios setup when a map update had a VOR offset from its proper position.
I got taught to work out your max drift and then use the clock factoring to work out your drift then use percentages to work out the GS.
In the air I mostly use the 1 in 60 rule.
And some PPL's are actually very switched on with DR and would put some commercials to shame. Its a perishable skill though and if its not exercised you will make stupid mistakes. Which is why I prefer to exercise my mind then check it against the GPS and if they disagree I check both again. The rare times they don't agree its a 50/50 between me getting my lefts and right muddled and the gps being pointed towards somewhere in the middle of china.
Oh and I have twice avoided busting airspace by having the NAV radios setup when a map update had a VOR offset from its proper position.
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F900 I am sure things get lost in translation. I would agree and of course have nav skills and use them to fly helicopters vfr and without gps but what I am trying to say not very well is that in general I admit virtually all my fixed wing flying I do rely on GPS and suddenly finding a complete failure in a cirrus with only a compass left in IMC would be a challenge I would prefer not to face or to rely on my DR skills in this situation and therefore carry a back up GPS for this very unlikely event.
I agree it was typo
It was mean't to read that the commercial guys, military and those with an interest in traditional navigation techniques have superior DR skills.
there is nothing superior about it.
It was mean't to read that the commercial guys, military and those with an interest in traditional navigation techniques have superior DR skills.
Last edited by 007helicopter; 27th Nov 2012 at 21:55.
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I was flying back to the UK from Worm - the GPs was a hand held moving map - in fact a Garmin 195 - not so good when the screen packed up, then Nav1 failed and the AI. So the six pack was a 4 and half pack or something like that and there was a strong temptation to duck below the undercast except for those dreaded masts which seem so popular in that part of the world across the low countries. Its flat for as far as the eye can see - why do they need such high masts?
There are times when the old skills are a comfort and your glad you were taught in the old ways.
These days we would pull the chute when the electrics quit completely and the hand held fails, well we might be tempted anyway, even if the engine keeps purring, well at least so long as it is not diesel powered, in which case electrics, avionics and hp go hand in hand. Its progress, but just not as we know it.
There are times when the old skills are a comfort and your glad you were taught in the old ways.
These days we would pull the chute when the electrics quit completely and the hand held fails, well we might be tempted anyway, even if the engine keeps purring, well at least so long as it is not diesel powered, in which case electrics, avionics and hp go hand in hand. Its progress, but just not as we know it.
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007Heli
You have been a devout defender of the Cirrus and all it has to offer and Tend to agree with you up to a point.
There are those who fly and those who have to fly! To be told in the middle of winter that you will collect someone in a twin at 0900 in Inverness and fly them to somewhere in the South of England tends to focus the mind.
If you are a pilot who flies for the pleasure, choose one all singing and dancing aircraft on days you select then your attitude and experience will be very different to those of us who have to.
Those of us who have to may get an all singing and dancing aircraft one day and then some steam driven basic aircraft the next so have to rely on basic skills and knowledge attained through surviving in **** weather where you only have those basic skills and a highly developed situational awareness to guide you through.
When you do get an all singing and dancing aircraft it is a luxury! The systems become a back up to those skills and experience and that is the way it should be! When I see some of these accidents One questions WHY a competent pilot should get into such situations?
That is stating facts not trumpet blowing.
pace
You have been a devout defender of the Cirrus and all it has to offer and Tend to agree with you up to a point.
There are those who fly and those who have to fly! To be told in the middle of winter that you will collect someone in a twin at 0900 in Inverness and fly them to somewhere in the South of England tends to focus the mind.
If you are a pilot who flies for the pleasure, choose one all singing and dancing aircraft on days you select then your attitude and experience will be very different to those of us who have to.
Those of us who have to may get an all singing and dancing aircraft one day and then some steam driven basic aircraft the next so have to rely on basic skills and knowledge attained through surviving in **** weather where you only have those basic skills and a highly developed situational awareness to guide you through.
When you do get an all singing and dancing aircraft it is a luxury! The systems become a back up to those skills and experience and that is the way it should be! When I see some of these accidents One questions WHY a competent pilot should get into such situations?
That is stating facts not trumpet blowing.
pace
Last edited by Pace; 27th Nov 2012 at 22:19.
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And also for us that fly every day it is also quite rare that everything is working. There is always some snag getting worked on.
A mate sent a photo of the deferred defects page on a plane with 35 total landings in the techlog. It had 3 open entrys and it went tech on him that day as well.
A mate sent a photo of the deferred defects page on a plane with 35 total landings in the techlog. It had 3 open entrys and it went tech on him that day as well.
Funny you should write that, Pace. Today I was in a C414 with more magenta lines than I could use at once: Garmin 600, dual Garmin 750s and the like. Saturday night I was co-pilot in a Beechjet 400. Nothing even close to whiz-bang. Even the single GPS is text based. The week before in it I had to use my CR5 whizwheel. <gasp!>
And to follow The furious &/or psychotic Scottish one's comment: Today's trip involved getting through a storm line but without Wx radar and with a failed XM weather downlink. So much for all the toys so....back to the old ways! Mark 1 eyeball, listening to traffic around me, seeking verbal descriptions of ground radar from Flight Service and listening to ATIS/AWOS broadcasts from airports ahead of me to build a mental picture of what was where.
It's very easy for the shiny & wonderful electronics to become crutches, not assistants. I'm firmly in the old curmudgeon camp. Learn & practice on steam. When proficient it's easy to incorporate the toys. Not so going the other way.
And to follow The furious &/or psychotic Scottish one's comment: Today's trip involved getting through a storm line but without Wx radar and with a failed XM weather downlink. So much for all the toys so....back to the old ways! Mark 1 eyeball, listening to traffic around me, seeking verbal descriptions of ground radar from Flight Service and listening to ATIS/AWOS broadcasts from airports ahead of me to build a mental picture of what was where.
It's very easy for the shiny & wonderful electronics to become crutches, not assistants. I'm firmly in the old curmudgeon camp. Learn & practice on steam. When proficient it's easy to incorporate the toys. Not so going the other way.
Last edited by Tinstaafl; 28th Nov 2012 at 02:20.
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It would be a lot less stress though, flying through your storm front in a Falcon 2000 with HUD, and all the gadgets you can imagine. Maybe some people just don't want to fly old dogs of aeroplanes.
I hate vintage aeroplanes. I am not into them at all, and I would rather stay at home than fly a Tiger Moth. Some might call me weird, but I just don't get them. I'd rather fly an Extra than a Spitfire even....
Although I was "classically" trained on steam instruments
I would prefer a nice modern aeroplane over an old crappy PA28 any day. Our Commander is relatively old, and steam driven, but it has crossed our mind to upgrade to Glass even if it doesn't add any value to the aeroplane, purely for flying enjoyment. In the meantime we have 430Ws, GPS's and iPads to keep us going.....
I hate vintage aeroplanes. I am not into them at all, and I would rather stay at home than fly a Tiger Moth. Some might call me weird, but I just don't get them. I'd rather fly an Extra than a Spitfire even....
Although I was "classically" trained on steam instruments
I would prefer a nice modern aeroplane over an old crappy PA28 any day. Our Commander is relatively old, and steam driven, but it has crossed our mind to upgrade to Glass even if it doesn't add any value to the aeroplane, purely for flying enjoyment. In the meantime we have 430Ws, GPS's and iPads to keep us going.....
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Englishal
Me 2.
Flying airways is easy. Its all done for you and if it isnt legs are long and well suited to trad. Nav.
I would still quite like to see some of these old timers navigate around say londons busy airspace ocas. I dont mean point to point but on the fly lets say a surprise circuit of gatwick through mig alley below the 2,500 stub. Make it a real challenge and do it in imc if you like.
Come on, step up, no gps.
Me 2.
Flying airways is easy. Its all done for you and if it isnt legs are long and well suited to trad. Nav.
I would still quite like to see some of these old timers navigate around say londons busy airspace ocas. I dont mean point to point but on the fly lets say a surprise circuit of gatwick through mig alley below the 2,500 stub. Make it a real challenge and do it in imc if you like.
Come on, step up, no gps.
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Englishal
Think I will put you in touch with the owner of one of the Jets I fly! Its 30+ years old and most half modern club pistons would put her to shame
Everything original steam with wait for it
a King 90B GPS.
It does the job but is annoying loading by hand 30 odd waypoints for a trans Europe flight.
Weather Radar is also original! Oh for the luxuries of FADEC an FMS a nice MFD but I cannot even get him to upgrade to a Garmin 430 never mind spending $200,000 on decent kit.
As MJ states a lot is workarounds expecting something not to work fully.
But with all that she is RVSM and struggles to FL390 but God do you have to work!
That jet has soul and flying something like her is good for the soul
Take these Magenta line pilots who need pilot assist here and there and parachute handles if an engine goes bang to compensate for a lack of basic skills stick them in that jet and they would not know where to start!
But yes please ask him nicely for me to cough up $200,000 and I can watch some nice displays! It is coming up to Christmas
Fuji
Come on most of us have been doing that for 25 years in IMC with 200 cloudbases below in a wide mix of aircraft and kit. Know that airspace back to front! As I said good for the soul.
Fuji what do you do the day you are asked to fly an aircraft which is NOT all singing and dancing through that airspace in IMC? decline because your skills are not up to it without a full box of toys and tricks ? I know in your own particular case your skills are more than up to it toys or no toys
Pace
Think I will put you in touch with the owner of one of the Jets I fly! Its 30+ years old and most half modern club pistons would put her to shame
Everything original steam with wait for it
a King 90B GPS.It does the job but is annoying loading by hand 30 odd waypoints for a trans Europe flight.
Weather Radar is also original! Oh for the luxuries of FADEC an FMS a nice MFD but I cannot even get him to upgrade to a Garmin 430 never mind spending $200,000 on decent kit.
As MJ states a lot is workarounds expecting something not to work fully.
But with all that she is RVSM and struggles to FL390 but God do you have to work!
That jet has soul and flying something like her is good for the soul
Take these Magenta line pilots who need pilot assist here and there and parachute handles if an engine goes bang to compensate for a lack of basic skills stick them in that jet and they would not know where to start!
But yes please ask him nicely for me to cough up $200,000 and I can watch some nice displays! It is coming up to Christmas
I would still quite like to see some of these old timers navigate around say londons busy airspace ocas. I dont mean point to point but on the fly lets say a surprise circuit of gatwick through mig alley below the 2,500 stub. Make it a real challenge and do it in imc if you like.
Come on most of us have been doing that for 25 years in IMC with 200 cloudbases below in a wide mix of aircraft and kit. Know that airspace back to front! As I said good for the soul.
Fuji what do you do the day you are asked to fly an aircraft which is NOT all singing and dancing through that airspace in IMC? decline because your skills are not up to it without a full box of toys and tricks ? I know in your own particular case your skills are more than up to it toys or no toys
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 28th Nov 2012 at 11:30.
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I am 100% sure that if the HUD wasn't working in the Falcon 2000 or some of the other nice bits of kit and the boss wanted to go somewhere you would be flying or out of a job.
We do have GPS and use it everyday. But we have the get of of jail free card skills as back up and we keep them current even though we have the gizmos as well. Mainly because we do have to use them.
We do have GPS and use it everyday. But we have the get of of jail free card skills as back up and we keep them current even though we have the gizmos as well. Mainly because we do have to use them.
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Fuji what do you do the day you are asked to fly an aircraft which is NOT all singing and dancing through that airspace in IMC? decline because your skills are not up to it without a full box of toys and tricks ? I know in your own particular case your skills are more than up to it toys or no toys 
I suppose my point is its one thing to fly airways with a six pack with long(ish) legs and conveniently placed VORs and quite another to fly complicated short legs around southern UK airspace.
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I did my IMC rating with Steam Gauges in a PA28 around 6 years ago, since I got the Cirrus with its "toys and gizmos" then in actual fact other than helicopters I have not ever flown an aircraft with steam gauge's fixed wing since,unless I get into something strictly VFR then I likely never will.
My skills on steam Gauges I am sure have eroded dramatically but being totally proficient on steam gauges will have little benefit if all the screens go blank in a current Cirrus, the only navigation tool left would be a magnetic compass, I would not fancy IMC around London airspace with just that in IMC or any other airspace.
Old school pilots hats off to you, you had no choice when you learn't and it gives you an added dimension to back up. I also agree also if you fly a whole variety as Pace said you need to be well equipped to handle what you are given and where boss man wants to go.
I do have the luxury of choosing based on my own needs and do fly quite a lot for personal business but invariably and often do cancel due to weather or any other reason and either take an alternative transport or go another day.
I also question anyone's ability to rely on DR in completely foreign airspace, mountains, tight airspace, high workload, stress of the failure, stress or carrying PAX, I am sure it can make for a challenging time and even proficient guys getting overloaded.
Personally I prefer the current modern tools GPS provide, which are reliable and readily available and spend my time getting as competent and proficient as I can with them.
Another point regarding the risk of my attitude I do not recall one Cirrus fatality or accident that was a result of "all the screens going blank"
I am sure however this could and probably has happened to some guys with partial failure if they are not well trained on all the systems.
My skills on steam Gauges I am sure have eroded dramatically but being totally proficient on steam gauges will have little benefit if all the screens go blank in a current Cirrus, the only navigation tool left would be a magnetic compass, I would not fancy IMC around London airspace with just that in IMC or any other airspace.
Old school pilots hats off to you, you had no choice when you learn't and it gives you an added dimension to back up. I also agree also if you fly a whole variety as Pace said you need to be well equipped to handle what you are given and where boss man wants to go.
I do have the luxury of choosing based on my own needs and do fly quite a lot for personal business but invariably and often do cancel due to weather or any other reason and either take an alternative transport or go another day.
I also question anyone's ability to rely on DR in completely foreign airspace, mountains, tight airspace, high workload, stress of the failure, stress or carrying PAX, I am sure it can make for a challenging time and even proficient guys getting overloaded.
Personally I prefer the current modern tools GPS provide, which are reliable and readily available and spend my time getting as competent and proficient as I can with them.
Another point regarding the risk of my attitude I do not recall one Cirrus fatality or accident that was a result of "all the screens going blank"
I am sure however this could and probably has happened to some guys with partial failure if they are not well trained on all the systems.
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I am sure it can make for a challenging time and even proficient guys getting overloaded.
Even a couple of weeks doing visual approaches you loose your edge.
The airframes are all quite young but given time and usage the wiring problems will start occuring.
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But yes please ask him nicely for me to cough up $200,000 and I can watch some nice displays! It is coming up to Christmas
I suggest you find a few thunderheads and fly close to them
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There is one navigation tool you have missed ATC do not forget them
Pace
Pace
However the ICOM would give some coverage so fair point.
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Please find enclosed an interesting accident report by the Swiss "NTSB". The pilot of a cirrus SR22 was flying IMC from Geneva to Berlin, when near Berne the alternator failed.
It turned out the pilot did not know very well the systems of the Cirrus SR22, which are only partially redundant. He did not have access to the landing plates of LSZH (Zurich) as they were in the system that was shut down. He failed to alert ATC to his serious situation and the airplane crashed in the last turn before attempting a VFR landing, probably due to a low speed stall.
The Cirrus seems to be a very nice plane, but it is way more complex than a PA28 and you have to know and understand it very well. To revert to the initial question, I doubt that it is the right plane for a fresh PPL pilot, but in the end it is ODAI's call.
I also guess ODAI might need more than just 10 hours to feel confortable on the plane (I remember having trouble adapting to the speed and systems (constant speed propeller, gear, avionics) of a Mooney after having done all my training and hour building on a C152 an PA28).
LINK
http://www.bfu.admin.ch/common/pdf/2146_e.pdf
It turned out the pilot did not know very well the systems of the Cirrus SR22, which are only partially redundant. He did not have access to the landing plates of LSZH (Zurich) as they were in the system that was shut down. He failed to alert ATC to his serious situation and the airplane crashed in the last turn before attempting a VFR landing, probably due to a low speed stall.
The Cirrus seems to be a very nice plane, but it is way more complex than a PA28 and you have to know and understand it very well. To revert to the initial question, I doubt that it is the right plane for a fresh PPL pilot, but in the end it is ODAI's call.
I also guess ODAI might need more than just 10 hours to feel confortable on the plane (I remember having trouble adapting to the speed and systems (constant speed propeller, gear, avionics) of a Mooney after having done all my training and hour building on a C152 an PA28).
LINK
http://www.bfu.admin.ch/common/pdf/2146_e.pdf
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Out of interest, what is so difficult about using steam gauges, or transitioning back to them after glass?
After all, it's just another way of presenting the same information. Sometimes the instruments even look visually the same (like a steam DI versus the graphical one on a screen).
Thanks Adrian B for the advice.
After all, it's just another way of presenting the same information. Sometimes the instruments even look visually the same (like a steam DI versus the graphical one on a screen).
Thanks Adrian B for the advice.
Last edited by Odai; 28th Nov 2012 at 20:03.
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Its the scans that you have to use with them and the cross referencing the information. Mainly in instrument flying
When you first start out you need to think dot to alt wings to DI where the dot is you pitch refence on the AH and wings is the roll reference for straight and level.
Each manover or phase of flight has its own scan depending whats the important information. After a bit you don't even realise you are doing it. And your eye will take in the required info and your hands and feet will sort it out and give you capacity to think at the same time as well.
The glass is just presented with little requirement to scan and if you do fixate on one instrument the others are within your field of vision.
Once you have the steam scan battered into you its a bit like riding a bike you might be a bit rusty but it soon comes back.
When you first start out you need to think dot to alt wings to DI where the dot is you pitch refence on the AH and wings is the roll reference for straight and level.
Each manover or phase of flight has its own scan depending whats the important information. After a bit you don't even realise you are doing it. And your eye will take in the required info and your hands and feet will sort it out and give you capacity to think at the same time as well.
The glass is just presented with little requirement to scan and if you do fixate on one instrument the others are within your field of vision.
Once you have the steam scan battered into you its a bit like riding a bike you might be a bit rusty but it soon comes back.
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Welcome, Adrian B, to the hot steamy topic du jour for Private Prune Flyers. I think you are well qualified to contribute if you transited directly from 152/PA28 to the Mooney, which can give the pilot quite a shock, having been brought up, so to speak, on fairly simple equipment and relatively slow speed.
Thanks, Fuji for mentioning the useful technique of I Follow Roads to avoid the naughty bits round Heathrow, etc. F900EX, you may have misunderstood my use of the term, in fact I did gain the IR, but it now has decayed beyond use. Following roads still works very well.
Fuji, I can very well imagine your feelings in transiting from Worms (well named) under a lowering cloudbase, and wondering why they needed all those humogous ariel installations.... I got lost over France a while back near Tours, in February, trying to fly VFR in a Supercub, getting lower and lower and decided to follow the river into Tours figuring they couldn't construct an ariel in the river. Tours were very kind and welcoming over the VFR, but I did notice a small strip by the river and lobbed into that instead. Survived again.
007heli, you remark that you cannot recall a single fatality or accident in a Cirrus that was the result of ALL the screens going blank....
Actually what goes blank is the pilot's mind.
Thanks, Fuji for mentioning the useful technique of I Follow Roads to avoid the naughty bits round Heathrow, etc. F900EX, you may have misunderstood my use of the term, in fact I did gain the IR, but it now has decayed beyond use. Following roads still works very well.
Fuji, I can very well imagine your feelings in transiting from Worms (well named) under a lowering cloudbase, and wondering why they needed all those humogous ariel installations.... I got lost over France a while back near Tours, in February, trying to fly VFR in a Supercub, getting lower and lower and decided to follow the river into Tours figuring they couldn't construct an ariel in the river. Tours were very kind and welcoming over the VFR, but I did notice a small strip by the river and lobbed into that instead. Survived again.
007heli, you remark that you cannot recall a single fatality or accident in a Cirrus that was the result of ALL the screens going blank....
Actually what goes blank is the pilot's mind.