In a spin
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
From: Essex UK
In a spin
Hi guys,
Moving towards aeros and having not done a spin recovery during the PPL (aircraft not permitted to spin) I've picked up that it can be difficult to know which way one is spinning.
What is the most reliable way to know in which sense to initiate recovery?
I'm guessing the turn indicator would be a good start, I've also heard that one should not look down into the center of the spin but out of the side window, any thoughts advice appreciated.
(Just hope my stomach is going to keep up with my enthusiasm over the next few months
)
Moving towards aeros and having not done a spin recovery during the PPL (aircraft not permitted to spin) I've picked up that it can be difficult to know which way one is spinning.
What is the most reliable way to know in which sense to initiate recovery?
I'm guessing the turn indicator would be a good start, I've also heard that one should not look down into the center of the spin but out of the side window, any thoughts advice appreciated.
(Just hope my stomach is going to keep up with my enthusiasm over the next few months
)
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,320
Likes: 102
From: IRS NAV ONLY
Aeros are usually visual manuevers, so as long as you are making intentional spin entries and recoveries, you should be looking outside. The direction of a turn during spin is usually quite easy to figure out, especially if you are doing it intentionally, since you will almost always give aircraft pro-spin rudder when it stalls, to give it enough yaw to develop a spin - if you'll push left rudder to develop a spin, then push right rudder to get out of it. It depends on the type, but many spin-certified CS23 aircraft require rudder input to actually hold the aircraft spinning - if you release it, the rotation will slowly decelerate, all you have to do is give it a bit contra-rudder and pull it out of a dive. Recovery from dive is where you should glance an airspeed indicator to see how much buffer do you have from Vne (again, it depends on the aircraft) - nevertheless, don't be too agressive on the stick during recovery: controls are very effective at high speeds and a bit of overreaction could dynamically stall the aircraft.
Of course, if an aircraft gets into spin in IMC conditions, then looking at your turn coordinator should show the direction of a spin, but in VMC - look outside
Of course, if an aircraft gets into spin in IMC conditions, then looking at your turn coordinator should show the direction of a spin, but in VMC - look outside
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 2
From: Oxford, UK
more fun spinning in a glider!
At Dunstable they have a K13 glider kept especially for spin training, as the glassfibre K21 training gliders are reluctant to spin, and have to have tail loaded with a bit of lead to unbalance properly!
I used to hate and dread spinning, but the dear old K13 is such a reliable old boat I grew to love spins and now do them every chance I get, just for the fun of it. When introducing a beginner to the sport, best to let him enter the spin and make the recovery; in the old days, the instructor would bang it in, and say "now recover, you have control!" which is unhelpful, as you don't have a chance to feel it go whoomp! as it enters, and to savour the way the elevator no longer works in the normal sense!
If the front seat pilot is a bit overweight, it will most likely not spin at all, but spiral dive, in which case all controls are working normally.
In a K13, I do the hassll checks first, height adequate for recovery, airframe speed limitations (eg, do not exceed 108 knots in the recovery dive), straps done up nice and tight, objects in the cockpit secure, location is appropriate (not over population centers or airfields or other aircraft below one) and lookout (again!). And then do a clearing 180 degree turn first to left, then another to right, in case another glider sees you turning 360 degrees and thinks "oho, he's got a thermal, I'll just slot in underneath!".
And then I just amble along nicely, getting slower, and slower, and eventually a wing will give up and drop, and THAT'S the way it wants to go, so a boot full of rudder in agreement with the wing drop, stick held fully back, and ROUND you go! Yahoo! Having put it in the spin, just do the recovery the other way, don't have to think left or right. Helpful if one is dyslexic.
Have fun! You do know how to recover, don't you?
And if you enter a spin while over-ruddering a final turn onto approach, don't worry about which way it is spinning, because you are too low to make the recovery anyhow. It WILL be your FINAL turn......
I used to hate and dread spinning, but the dear old K13 is such a reliable old boat I grew to love spins and now do them every chance I get, just for the fun of it. When introducing a beginner to the sport, best to let him enter the spin and make the recovery; in the old days, the instructor would bang it in, and say "now recover, you have control!" which is unhelpful, as you don't have a chance to feel it go whoomp! as it enters, and to savour the way the elevator no longer works in the normal sense!
If the front seat pilot is a bit overweight, it will most likely not spin at all, but spiral dive, in which case all controls are working normally.
In a K13, I do the hassll checks first, height adequate for recovery, airframe speed limitations (eg, do not exceed 108 knots in the recovery dive), straps done up nice and tight, objects in the cockpit secure, location is appropriate (not over population centers or airfields or other aircraft below one) and lookout (again!). And then do a clearing 180 degree turn first to left, then another to right, in case another glider sees you turning 360 degrees and thinks "oho, he's got a thermal, I'll just slot in underneath!".
And then I just amble along nicely, getting slower, and slower, and eventually a wing will give up and drop, and THAT'S the way it wants to go, so a boot full of rudder in agreement with the wing drop, stick held fully back, and ROUND you go! Yahoo! Having put it in the spin, just do the recovery the other way, don't have to think left or right. Helpful if one is dyslexic.
Have fun! You do know how to recover, don't you?
And if you enter a spin while over-ruddering a final turn onto approach, don't worry about which way it is spinning, because you are too low to make the recovery anyhow. It WILL be your FINAL turn......
Fleet Manager
Joined: Aug 2006
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 7,090
Likes: 2,952
From: Ontario, Canada
What Flying Stone said.
If you have deliberately entered the spin in suitable conditions, you will know which direction it is going. If you have accidentally entered a spin with the horizon in sight, you will know which way it is going.
If you have entered a spin with inadequate visual reference to identify the direction, you should not have been flying that way there, in the first place, without adequate instrument flying training. That training will teach you to recognize and recover from unusual attitudes.
In a spin approved aircraft, with the right amount of space around, and under you, a spin is a very safe and worthwhile maneuver to practice for improving pilot skill. The rotation may seem a little fast and blurry the first few times, but as you do a few, they will seem to slow down, and you'll have a sense of more time to observe, enjoy then recover.
First, we do not have a skill. Then we gain that skill, but not yet the familiarity to completely demonstrate it in "real time". With practice, the skill improves, but more so, our ability to always "be ahead" if it improves.
Go an take aerobatic training, and do spins. The more you do it, the less blurry the rotating world will seem!
If you have deliberately entered the spin in suitable conditions, you will know which direction it is going. If you have accidentally entered a spin with the horizon in sight, you will know which way it is going.
If you have entered a spin with inadequate visual reference to identify the direction, you should not have been flying that way there, in the first place, without adequate instrument flying training. That training will teach you to recognize and recover from unusual attitudes.
In a spin approved aircraft, with the right amount of space around, and under you, a spin is a very safe and worthwhile maneuver to practice for improving pilot skill. The rotation may seem a little fast and blurry the first few times, but as you do a few, they will seem to slow down, and you'll have a sense of more time to observe, enjoy then recover.
First, we do not have a skill. Then we gain that skill, but not yet the familiarity to completely demonstrate it in "real time". With practice, the skill improves, but more so, our ability to always "be ahead" if it improves.
Go an take aerobatic training, and do spins. The more you do it, the less blurry the rotating world will seem!
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
From: Essex UK
Have fun! You do know how to recover, don't you?
If above fails, into spin aileron, maintain full opposite rudder and stick full forward.
That's what I've got from the pilot notes for the type I expect to teach me my first spin.
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 2
From: Oxford, UK
Hello, C.G....
Yes, that's the correct sequence of the recovery action. However if flying power, I seem to remember you should ease off on the throttle as well.
A spin is an event when one wing is stalled and the other is not, and auto-rotation takes place. In many gliders, simply easing the stick forward a bit will bring it out of the stalled condition. This may be the same for power, but I expect that depends on the type, and how established you are in the spin, and if it is a "flat" spin! Pilots that attempt the flat spin are usually wearing a parachute!
Position of the stick fully back is the giveaway.....ease it forward and see what happens! (assume plenty of height, of course.
Mary
A spin is an event when one wing is stalled and the other is not, and auto-rotation takes place. In many gliders, simply easing the stick forward a bit will bring it out of the stalled condition. This may be the same for power, but I expect that depends on the type, and how established you are in the spin, and if it is a "flat" spin! Pilots that attempt the flat spin are usually wearing a parachute!
Position of the stick fully back is the giveaway.....ease it forward and see what happens! (assume plenty of height, of course.
Mary
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
From: UK
A spin is an event when one wing is stalled and the other is not
A conventional spin usually has both wings stalled - however, the L/D characteristics beyond the stall lead to the autorotation (Lift and Drag curves in opposite directions).
One wing stalled and one not is used in a Flick Roll.
Overall - please do not read a pPrune thread on how to generically spin / recover or not
Recoveries can be very type specific, and the POH etc. should be well understood e.g. some types need a pause after the opposite rudder before stick forward, others you need to be careful of how much forward stick you might use to avoid an inverted spin etc. Some types are safe to spin at ~2500' (as in an aerobatic competition), others have a entry / recovery / abandonment calculation that might require ~8000' entry (Bulldog).NoD
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
From: Amsterdam
Full opposite rudder, ailerons central, pause, stick forward until rotation stops, centralise rudder, ease out from the dive.
Full opposite rudder, ailerons central, pause, stick forward *after* the rotation stops, ...
Your method works too in the R2160 and is actually more precise when doing competition aerobatics, but might not lead to the recovery with the least height loss.
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
From: A place where something is or could be located; a site.
NoD beat me to it.....
An aircraft can spin (auto rotate) quite happily with both wings stalled. In fact, this is usually the case.
Also, whilst the recovery procedure is VERY type specific, the order of actions just given doesn't sit easy with me.
The whole point of easing the control column forward is to recover from the stall. Unless you have to for POH reasons, you do not want to be auto-rotating whilst stuffing the nose down.
Saying
suggests that you think this is what causes the rotation to stop. It is the opposite rudder which achieves this.
A more sensible recovery sequence for a genreic type would have you easing the control column forward AFTER the autorotation has stopped. Otherwise you run the risk of tightening the spin.
EK
An aircraft can spin (auto rotate) quite happily with both wings stalled. In fact, this is usually the case.
Also, whilst the recovery procedure is VERY type specific, the order of actions just given doesn't sit easy with me.
The whole point of easing the control column forward is to recover from the stall. Unless you have to for POH reasons, you do not want to be auto-rotating whilst stuffing the nose down.
Saying
stick forward until rotation stops
A more sensible recovery sequence for a genreic type would have you easing the control column forward AFTER the autorotation has stopped. Otherwise you run the risk of tightening the spin.
EK
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,297
Likes: 0
From: The Burrow, N53:48:02 W1:48:57, The Tin Tent - EGBS, EGBO
Surely the sensible thing is to read the POH for the manufacturer's recommendations for recovery as they are not all the same. The C152 requires immediate power off, full opposite rudder and centralised controls until spin stops then recover from the ensuing spiral dive. The DA40, from memory, also requires power off, full opposite rudder but then - wings level and stick forward followed eventually by recovery from the spiral dive.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
From: Essex UK
Interesting stuff
The type I'll be flying has been subject to an AIL which reads:
Spin Recovery must be started at least 3,500 feet above ground level, in order to retain level flight by 1,500 feet, consistent with a height loss during recovery of up to 2,000 feet.
a) check throttle CLOSED;
b) check ailerons CENTRAL;
c) apply full OPPOSITE RUDDER;
d) PAUSE:
e) move the stick firmly FORWARD against the increasing stick force and stick buffet. IF NECESSARY TO THE FRONT STOP and hold it there until rotation ceases;
f) when rotation ceases CENTRALISE the rudder control and ease out of the ensuing dive
I wouldn't have thought stick fully forwards stops the rotation, but both the above and the pilot's notes specifically state stick forwards until rotation stops. I can see the point that it isn't what stops the rotation, but rather an instruction to do it until the rotation ceases.
Saying
Quote:
stick forward until rotation stops
suggests that you think this is what causes the rotation to stop. It is the opposite rudder which achieves this.
Quote:
stick forward until rotation stops
suggests that you think this is what causes the rotation to stop. It is the opposite rudder which achieves this.
Spin Recovery must be started at least 3,500 feet above ground level, in order to retain level flight by 1,500 feet, consistent with a height loss during recovery of up to 2,000 feet.
a) check throttle CLOSED;
b) check ailerons CENTRAL;
c) apply full OPPOSITE RUDDER;
d) PAUSE:
e) move the stick firmly FORWARD against the increasing stick force and stick buffet. IF NECESSARY TO THE FRONT STOP and hold it there until rotation ceases;
f) when rotation ceases CENTRALISE the rudder control and ease out of the ensuing dive
I wouldn't have thought stick fully forwards stops the rotation, but both the above and the pilot's notes specifically state stick forwards until rotation stops. I can see the point that it isn't what stops the rotation, but rather an instruction to do it until the rotation ceases.
Last edited by Conventional Gear; 14th May 2011 at 21:38.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
From: UK
I wouldn't have thought stick fully forwards stops the rotation, but both the above and the pilot's notes specifically state stick forwards until rotation stops. I can see the point that it isn't what stops the rotation, but rather an instruction to do it until the rotation ceases.
Stick forward is attempting to unstall the wings. However, it will also initially tend to speed up the rotation (look up B/A ratio
) - in the type above, that is why the "PAUSE" - slow the rotation as much as possible prior stick forward.Leave it up to the TPs to experiment and devise the recovery drill - as above shows, each type needs to be considered differently.
NoD
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
From: Essex UK
Yep you are correct NoD - increasing speed of rotation is remarked on as a sign of correct recovery technique for the type in question.
Perhaps there is confusion as to the purpose of the thread.
I didn't originally ask about how to do spin recovery, simply how does one reliably establish the direction of a spin. (I was thinking of an inadvertent spin during aeros practice you see). I never actually asked what the the recovery technique was, that was just an interesting side topic that came up.
Clearly the POH or in this case handling notes and an AIL are the place to look for exact technique.
Perhaps there is confusion as to the purpose of the thread.
I didn't originally ask about how to do spin recovery, simply how does one reliably establish the direction of a spin. (I was thinking of an inadvertent spin during aeros practice you see). I never actually asked what the the recovery technique was, that was just an interesting side topic that came up.
Clearly the POH or in this case handling notes and an AIL are the place to look for exact technique.
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
From: New Zealand
The rudder pedal with the most resistance will be the one to push I think -but the turn coordinator is also reliable. Personally I have used neither so far as I have somehow always know what direction the spin was in (as I started it )
Remember for generic recovery PARE should work -we just had a long thread about this.
Cheers
)Remember for generic recovery PARE should work -we just had a long thread about this.
Cheers
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
From: Londonish
Conventional Gear - for what it's worth, it's usually blindingly obvious which way the world is spinning, just watch the scenery blurring past the nose!
Most types I've met recover if you take your feet off, but the one I've met where it didn't you could take your feet off, and the rudder would sit on the in-turn stop - you then stand on the closest pedal. I believe moreflaps is also correct about the t/c.
Further down the line, putting the stick forward while maintaining in-spin rudder can be good fun (don't try this at home!).
Most types I've met recover if you take your feet off, but the one I've met where it didn't you could take your feet off, and the rudder would sit on the in-turn stop - you then stand on the closest pedal. I believe moreflaps is also correct about the t/c.
Further down the line, putting the stick forward while maintaining in-spin rudder can be good fun (don't try this at home!).
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 6,209
Likes: 2
From: north of barlu
Spinning modern aircraft.....the film
If you can get to see a 1950's RAF instructional film called Spinning Modern Aircraft it will help no end in understanding the subject.
The film is a jem with a shots on long gone aircraft, graphics that must have been quite advanced at the time and a soundtrack that sounds like it was made by the BBC in 1935. But for all of that it is technicly correct for todays light aircraft.
The film is a jem with a shots on long gone aircraft, graphics that must have been quite advanced at the time and a soundtrack that sounds like it was made by the BBC in 1935. But for all of that it is technicly correct for todays light aircraft.
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 2
From: Oxford, UK
Lots of expert advice chipped in here! Regret if I have misunderstood the stalled/unstalled condition of one wing or the other. Certainly something is stalled if the elevator no longer works in the normal sense.....
Easing back on the throttle (if you've got one!) seems to be agreed as part of the recovery process.
I'm sure you remember the old story about how the very first spin recovery was achieved?
Easing back on the throttle (if you've got one!) seems to be agreed as part of the recovery process.
I'm sure you remember the old story about how the very first spin recovery was achieved?
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
From: UK
For those light hearted comments above about "how easy" "how obvious" "how fun to play with the controls" "I thnk this is how you do it":
might I suggest a read of this (recent) AAIB Report and associated references.
To the OP
read the POH and listen to/ask the instructor in your training. It will be somewhat type specific
NoD
The rudder pedal with the most resistance will be the one to push I think
Further down the line, putting the stick forward while maintaining in-spin rudder can be good fun
To the OP
What is the most reliable way to know in which sense to initiate recovery?
NoD
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
From: Essex UK
I'm sure you remember the old story about how the very first spin recovery was achieved?
Can't remember the guys name but read about it many years ago.
PS thanks for your input NoD as a newbie to spins I **could** have fallen into the trap of thinking I was learning a standard technique for recovery, seems though loosely one does exist, one would be wise to consult the POH before considering spinning.
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
From: New Zealand
Nod
Are you saying that the hardest rudder pedal does not indicate the yaw direction in spins? As I said, I haven't tested that proposition but I believe it to be correct and that is why I said "I think". There is certainly no light heartedness about unintentional spins implied on my part so what are you getting at?
In any case, as I read it, the accident brief you cite sheds no light on what actually went wrong except the PIC did not appear to be very experienced and the COG/WB was questionable.
Cheers
Are you saying that the hardest rudder pedal does not indicate the yaw direction in spins? As I said, I haven't tested that proposition but I believe it to be correct and that is why I said "I think". There is certainly no light heartedness about unintentional spins implied on my part so what are you getting at?
In any case, as I read it, the accident brief you cite sheds no light on what actually went wrong except the PIC did not appear to be very experienced and the COG/WB was questionable.
Cheers