In a spin

[BackPacker]

Since the plane may be banked a spiral dive may result but that should be easy to fix...

And that's exactly why we're banging on about using the recovery procedure from the POH. It's not so much that the generic PARE technique will not stop the spin, but it's the ensuing dive (spiral or not) and its recovery that may exceed the planes limitations if you happen to break the spin improperly.

I can well imagine that there are aircraft types that really require you to stop the yaw *before* you break the stall, otherwise you end up in a spiral dive which exceeds the aircrafts limitations. By stopping the yaw *before* you break the stall, all you will probably get into is a straight dive. Which is easier to recover from, within the planes limitations, than a spiral dive.

[Pace]

Backpacker

I think we all accept that spin training was stopped due to more aircraft being lost practicing them than in real situations.

My own feeling is that banning spin training was a mistake! What should have been done is firstly raising the altitude for spin training and secondly only allowing spin training in specific aircraft with known good spin characteristics.

Do we have figures for aircraft loss in spiral dive training as because of the connection between the two and indeed the possible confusion between the two manouvres my view which may be old school is that both should be thoroughly taught to and experienced by student pilots.

Pace

[rotorfossil]

The main problem if you get into a spin inadvertently is the disorientation. If your aircraft is fitted with a turn & slip (not a turn co-ordinator, it doesn't work); full opposite rudder to the turn needle. With ailerons neutral check direction of rotation. If rotation is same as yaw, you are in an upright spin and stick forward or as in the flight manual if it says different. If rotation is opposite to yaw, you are in an inverted spin, in which case stick back. When rotation stops, ease out of the dive - gently!

Best not to get into the situation that leads to an inadvertent spin, particularly close to the ground.

[ProfChrisReed]

Pace wrote:

I think we all accept that spin training was stopped due to more aircraft being lost practicing them than in real situations.

This is what "everyone knows", but I've never found any research which demonstrated it as a fact.

I can't see how spin training at a suitable height, in a suitable aircraft, should lead to any increase in training accidents. In gliding we had a spate of accidents when a new type of trainer arrived some years ago, but since its (different) spinning characteristics were properly understood it's now recognised as the best spin trainer available.

[The500man]

I was under the impression it wasn't training accidents that led to spinning being removed from the syllabus, but newly minted PPL holders that were showing off to their friends, and finding out that they weren't as **** hot as they thought?

[BackPacker]

Or a plot by Mr. Cessna and Mr. Piper, so that they could sell more "intentional spins prohibited" C172s and PA28s to flight schools?

In any case, bringing spins back as a mandatory element in PPL training would cause a lot of flight schools to make significant changes to their fleet.

[Pace]

I have to say I have flown with some great old school examiners in both twin props and jets.

They all had one thing in common! You do everything fully! OK we take the twins up to 10K and the jets higher but none of this incipient rubbish.

Next it will be recovering an aircraft from an incipient takeoffs( ie too dangerous up there) and im not talking about pre V1 aborted takeoffs

All good for the soul as they would say.

Pace

[Dan Winterland]

As for the question of which way - it's not alway's immediately obvious from visual references. The direction of spin is defined as the direction of yaw. the only true way of determining this is to check the turn needle. (Note not the turn co-ordinater as they don't always work). Someone has mentioned rudder to oppose the turn needle - the CFS technique mention ''foot into the empy space'' which means if the turn needle is to the left then it's a spin to the left. The instrument will have a big black space on the right side as the needle is stuck on the left stop and this is the side where you push the rudder. Simple, and it works. If spinnning regularly, the aircraft should have a turn and slip IMHO. A club I instructed at has the turn co-ordinators changed on the two PA28-140s as they were spun occasionally.

Thankfully, no one has has promoted the ''standard spin recovery'' - which does not exist. If you are flying a type cleared for spinning then you must know that type's recovery technique. They mostly similar (apart form a few oddities) but subtley different to have an effect if the wrong technique is applied. Some may delay the recovery slightly, but some may actually prevent recovery. The aforemention PARE is a form od standard recovery, but I wouldn't recommend it. Also, someone may mention the Beags-Muller technique which was designed as a standard emergency recovery. But again, this won't work on all types including a couple of common ones used for aerobatic training.

Also someone mention the film ''Spinning Modern Aircraft'' which although was made in the 60s and heavily features Jet Provosts and Gants, is still very relevant. this was updated in the 90s by ''The Spin Explained'' featuring the Tucano which is a fantastic film and explains everything you would need to know in 30 minutes. Both of these films are available to buy from SSVC, but are very expensive.

[Pilot DAR]

make significant changes to their fleet.

And possibly instructing staff....

but some may actually prevent recovery

Not in certified GA aircraft, which are required to conform to:

.....It shall not be possible to obtain uncontrollable spins by means of any possible use of the controls.....