In a spin
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Are you saying that the hardest rudder pedal does not indicate the yaw direction in spins?
I have never heard it taught on any type I have flown. I have never taught it. I would never teach it except where specifically recommended. I cannot see how it would work with power / non-reversible controls. It certainly will not result in the optimum recovery.
the accident brief you cite sheds no light on what actually went wrong
The OP is starting out spinning, and asked some rather generic questions. I believe it worthwhile deflecting him from the advice above, and pointing out that it is a subject that can, and does kill, if not approached correctly.Just my opinion
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Thanks, Nigel. I think I did mention that a spin on a final turn onto approach will probably be your final turn. Which should imply you don't mess around with spins. The poor chaps in the accident report you have cited had only 200 hours each, hardly exerienced; if as the cameras reported they ended up in an inverted spin in a Stampe, there was less than a minute remaining to get it sorted before the trees.
Yes of course, POH to be respected, digested, and training undertaken with an instructor who knows what he or she is talking about. Experimenting with spin recovery on assorted types is NOT recommended. Even with advice from assorted pruners.
In gliding, spin training is routine; in power instruction it is avoided. What a pity.
The original recovery I mentioned is not recorded in history, probably a myth. Very very early days, a spin (called Well Digging by the Wright Brothers) was without exception, terminal. So one hapless pilot, having inadvertently entered a spin, seeing he was about to die, decided to get it over with quickly, and moved the stick forward.....
Yes of course, POH to be respected, digested, and training undertaken with an instructor who knows what he or she is talking about. Experimenting with spin recovery on assorted types is NOT recommended. Even with advice from assorted pruners.
In gliding, spin training is routine; in power instruction it is avoided. What a pity.
The original recovery I mentioned is not recorded in history, probably a myth. Very very early days, a spin (called Well Digging by the Wright Brothers) was without exception, terminal. So one hapless pilot, having inadvertently entered a spin, seeing he was about to die, decided to get it over with quickly, and moved the stick forward.....
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Nigel
I think you've missed the point of my and other posts. The OP asked about what could be used to indicate spin direction. The recovery procedure is, as I and many others have stated, indicated by the POH. If that doesn't work you had better know some more spin recovery tools and, for example, letting go of the controls will do you no good if active control input (suggested by POH) has not broken the spin. On the other hand, and if letting go does not break the spin (if suggested by POH) you had better get active. The rudder is one of the most powerful anti-spin devices and you had better know which way to push it. The problem is that after several turns you may be so disorientated that you really can't tell which way you are spinning and may not be able to see the TC (nystagmus?). Then your best bet may be feel of the aircraft rudder pedals. As in all things flying YMMV, but knowledge imparted is more valuable than ignorance. A good pilot should try earn beyond the knowledge level of his original instructor (some may know little more than the teaching syllabus) and it was quite appropriate for the OP to ask and get opinions that are posted here. While I disagree with some statements posted in this thread I, personally state when my knowledge is uncertain ("I think").
Please note that I was not advocating just pushing the rudder as sole spin recovery technique but simply answering the original question. I suggest that PARE as the optimal generic spin recovery technique and NASA says the same, as does the CAA. (Handling Sense Leaflet 03: Safety In Spin Training | Publications | CAA). OK?
I think you've missed the point of my and other posts. The OP asked about what could be used to indicate spin direction. The recovery procedure is, as I and many others have stated, indicated by the POH. If that doesn't work you had better know some more spin recovery tools and, for example, letting go of the controls will do you no good if active control input (suggested by POH) has not broken the spin. On the other hand, and if letting go does not break the spin (if suggested by POH) you had better get active. The rudder is one of the most powerful anti-spin devices and you had better know which way to push it. The problem is that after several turns you may be so disorientated that you really can't tell which way you are spinning and may not be able to see the TC (nystagmus?). Then your best bet may be feel of the aircraft rudder pedals. As in all things flying YMMV, but knowledge imparted is more valuable than ignorance. A good pilot should try earn beyond the knowledge level of his original instructor (some may know little more than the teaching syllabus) and it was quite appropriate for the OP to ask and get opinions that are posted here. While I disagree with some statements posted in this thread I, personally state when my knowledge is uncertain ("I think").
Please note that I was not advocating just pushing the rudder as sole spin recovery technique but simply answering the original question. I suggest that PARE as the optimal generic spin recovery technique and NASA says the same, as does the CAA. (Handling Sense Leaflet 03: Safety In Spin Training | Publications | CAA). OK?
Last edited by moreflaps; 15th May 2011 at 21:06.
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The same leaflet that actually answered my original question and I quote:
d) In determining the direction of yaw for an inadvertent spin the turn needle is always the best indication (not slip ball). Beware if you only have a turn co-ordinator, it measures yaw and roll. In an inverted spin yaw and roll are in opposite directions so the turn co-ordinator is of no help to you here!
I knew I had read it somewhere and that's all I was after.
Certainly the rest has been stimulating enough, but I wasn't actually asking for a generic recovery technique, though I can see the handling notes for the aircraft I'll be spinning is close to PARE. I'll be watching out to see if I can feel the rudder in the spin, sounds though from the pilot's notes in a true spin the rudder may feel very light for the given type. I'll have to see.
d) In determining the direction of yaw for an inadvertent spin the turn needle is always the best indication (not slip ball). Beware if you only have a turn co-ordinator, it measures yaw and roll. In an inverted spin yaw and roll are in opposite directions so the turn co-ordinator is of no help to you here!
I knew I had read it somewhere and that's all I was after.
Certainly the rest has been stimulating enough, but I wasn't actually asking for a generic recovery technique, though I can see the handling notes for the aircraft I'll be spinning is close to PARE. I'll be watching out to see if I can feel the rudder in the spin, sounds though from the pilot's notes in a true spin the rudder may feel very light for the given type. I'll have to see.
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Doesn't hurt to have a discussion and thrash it out thoroughly...the CAA leaflet is a useful summary.
C.G., do let us know about your spin training in detail, what type, where flown, how your instructor presents it. I'm sure we'd all be interested to know how you get on!
I did quite a few hours in a Warrior, first rate instrument platform, nice and steady. A biennial check ride in a C152 aerobatic approved type under the hood wasn't a problem, unusual attitudes included. The first clue that the examiner was planning to throw in a spin was our climb to altitude! Sensible man.
C.G., do let us know about your spin training in detail, what type, where flown, how your instructor presents it. I'm sure we'd all be interested to know how you get on!
I did quite a few hours in a Warrior, first rate instrument platform, nice and steady. A biennial check ride in a C152 aerobatic approved type under the hood wasn't a problem, unusual attitudes included. The first clue that the examiner was planning to throw in a spin was our climb to altitude! Sensible man.
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Maybe I'm thick but what is PARE?
I have a heck of a time remembering so many acronyms, so I just try to remember how to fly well, as learned and practiced. If I had to stop and remember an acronym, then remember what it stands for, then apply that, the event would already be over - for better or worse!
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How do you tell the direction of spin? Simple - look along the nose - NOT towards the ground - which means sighting up through the canopy and can be deceptive. When you are looking along the nose, the nose will move towards the direction of too much rudder. So, Power off; Controls to Neutral (stick and rudder); Check the direction of rotation / apply rudder in opposite direction to spin rotation; when spin stops and airspeed is above stall speed, apply power & recover to straight & level.
Basic approach works whether upright or inverted, flat or other.
Basic approach works whether upright or inverted, flat or other.
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PARE?
OK, I've looked it up on Google.
P is for Power Off
A is for ailerons neutral
R is for Rudder, opposite and hold (until spin stops)
E is for Elevator, neutral.
as most nmonics, you can spend a lot of time down-wind trying to remember what the heck UFSTALL stands for. And still get it wrong....
P is for Pull the stick back???????
A is for Attitude -keep pulling and get that horizon in place....
R is for Roll into a turn
E is for Exit if you can still open the canopy......
P is for Power Off
A is for ailerons neutral
R is for Rudder, opposite and hold (until spin stops)
E is for Elevator, neutral.
as most nmonics, you can spend a lot of time down-wind trying to remember what the heck UFSTALL stands for. And still get it wrong....
P is for Pull the stick back???????
A is for Attitude -keep pulling and get that horizon in place....
R is for Roll into a turn
E is for Exit if you can still open the canopy......
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PARE stands for:
Power: to idle
Ailerons: neutral (and flaps up)
Rudder: full opposite to the spin and held
Elevator: through neutral
When the spin stops recover the dive as normal
Power: to idle
Ailerons: neutral (and flaps up)
Rudder: full opposite to the spin and held
Elevator: through neutral
When the spin stops recover the dive as normal
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Mary has it about right.
Nemonics can mean anything you wish, P= power up, pull like hell, pray, piss yersel. you name it.
If the thing is spinning, recovery should be an automatic action, not a checklist reference.
Nemonics can mean anything you wish, P= power up, pull like hell, pray, piss yersel. you name it.
If the thing is spinning, recovery should be an automatic action, not a checklist reference.
I do keep the recommended spin recovery for any given type on my kneeboard - I generally try to remind myself from time to time, and almost always before any deliberate stalling. There are worse ways of spending 20 seconds between your HASELL checks and the first stall, or more likely whilst I'm climbing to height for manoeuvre.
G
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moreflaps
And in some types this is how to execute a crossover spin depending on how fast and how far past neutral you go.
Not a go at you moreflaps, but as an aerobatic instructor this is an area where cover all defences can be very dangerous.
PARE stands for:
Elevator: through neutral
Elevator: through neutral
Not a go at you moreflaps, but as an aerobatic instructor this is an area where cover all defences can be very dangerous.
Avoid imitations
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Clearly the POH or in this case handling notes and an AIL are the place to look for exact technique.
IMO, the only proper advice here. There's no such thing as a "general" correspondence course in spin recoveries covering all aircraft types.
During my time as an RAF QFI I read an interesting "AIRCLUES" article written by the Chief Instructor of the RAF's Central Flying School (Wing Commander Peter Moore).
He was current on all three types of aircraft then flown at CFS, namely Bulldog, Jet Provost and Hawk. All three had very different spin recovery techniques.
One day he was flying the Air Officer Commanding (i.e. one of the biggest RAF big-wigs) in the Hawk. The AOC had no experience on that type and asked to see a full spin and recovery.
As he put the aircraft into the spin, PM had a mental blank and couldn't remember the recovery procedure....... Thankfully it did come back to him just in time and they survived, but PM lost most of his hair on top with the stress of it (oh no, my mistake - that last bit happened before the event).
His message was.... don't become blase; mentally think about the recovery drill beforehand.
We used to be required to practice high rotational spin recoveries every month whilst instructing on the Bulldog (always 2 QFIs together). We used to brief the other QFI how we were going to enter the hi-rot. spin and how we intended to recover..... easier if you only fly one type but even more relevant if it's more than one.
As a student pilot I once badly messed up a stall turn in a Jet Provost (in those days I seemed almost impervious to G) and the aircraft flicked on me, going upwards. By the time I'd sorted it out I reckon it had tail slid, hammerheaded and spun rapidly in both directions and I was almost completely disorientated by the rapidly spinning horizon outside. I eventually went heads in and used the turn needle as I had been taught and recovered, but by then I had lost 10,000 feet plus and was below the minimum safe height for ejection... not that I was aware of the fact at the time; only on climbout afterwards.
Put me in good stead for when a UAS student of mine later inadvertantly did just about the same in a Bulldog, during workup up to his spin/aeros check (Bulldog could be one of the least forgiving types the RAF had).
The subsequent "antics" of the aircraft over the next few seconds resulted in the student actually screaming out loud! He was a big "ruffy-tuffy" rugby player at that. I made light of it but he was very embarassed about it
I lost a lot less height sorting out that one - but we both decided he'd had enough aeros for the day and so we went home to base for a debrief and to get the aircraft looked over by the engineers.
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Torque's is valuable advice, though perhaps not entirely in place in a discussion regarding spins, in spin approved certified GA types. My experience is that spin approved GA types all have more or less the same recovery technique, and will adequately respond to any recovery technique, which is close.
That's no excuse for not being properly trained in spin recovery, and doing it right, and Torque's advice certainly shows the need for awareness when flying other types.
When I'm spinning non spin approved types during flight tests, I'm always being careful to apply the most appropriate recovery procedure (Flight Manual procedure if possible). I'm certainly not trying to invent new techniques!
That's no excuse for not being properly trained in spin recovery, and doing it right, and Torque's advice certainly shows the need for awareness when flying other types.
When I'm spinning non spin approved types during flight tests, I'm always being careful to apply the most appropriate recovery procedure (Flight Manual procedure if possible). I'm certainly not trying to invent new techniques!
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WB: "And in some types this is how to execute a crossover spin depending on how fast and how far past neutral you go."
Interesting, in my experience that is not the case -unless you still have yaw, which should not be the case if you followed the R instruction in PARE. If you don't concur, can you explain why the spin flipped?
Cheers
Interesting, in my experience that is not the case -unless you still have yaw, which should not be the case if you followed the R instruction in PARE. If you don't concur, can you explain why the spin flipped?
Cheers
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His message was.... don't become blase; mentally think about the recovery drill beforehand.
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WB: "And in some types this is how to execute a crossover spin depending on how fast and how far past neutral you go."
Interesting, in my experience that is not the case -unless you still have yaw, which should not be the case if you followed the R instruction in PARE. If you don't concur, can you explain why the spin flipped?
Cheers
Interesting, in my experience that is not the case -unless you still have yaw, which should not be the case if you followed the R instruction in PARE. If you don't concur, can you explain why the spin flipped?
Cheers
As a basic concepts go, PARE has validity with stable run of the mill tourers. However there are so many variables with aerobatic aircraft any cover all spin recovery technique may induce its own hazards. There is nothing to beat flying with an experienced instructor on type.
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Ah, I see the problem. The missing instruction is when the yaw stops check the rudder and move the stick forward, (not holding full opposite rudder to reverse the yaw). If the yaw is stopped when the stick goes forward the stall is broken on both wings and with no couple a dive results. Since the plane may be banked a spiral dive may result but that should be easy to fix... The interesting thing is that provided the COG is in limits, the NASA tests showed the reliability of this method.
Cheers
Cheers