Light aircraft down in Dundee
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I have spoken to the AAIB yesterday and today and they are getting on with the job. I have referred them initially to my posts on this site since it seems pointless writing another report when most of the detail is available in serial form.
To summarise, you had a notifiable crash and are required by law to report certain details (link at Air Accidents Investigation: Reporting an accident). You've got into a bit of a mess entering discussions here and consequently your recollection of actual events may have been slewed. Furthermore, whilst the AAIB will not apportion blame the authorities (ie CAA/police) may well look at an AAIB report and decide to take things further. As others have suggested, shut up, write a proper, objective and comprehensive report (don't post it here) and present it to the AAIB.
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Originally Posted by avgh
I have spoken to the AAIB yesterday and today and they are getting on with the job. I have referred them initially to my posts on this site since it seems pointless writing another report when most of the detail is available in serial form.
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although this site allows people to use handles to cover thier identity it doesn't take long to work out who does what job, what hardware they drive and what their experence is
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VH,
Please don't ignore an AAIB request for information by referring them here. It is not really cricket to ask them to trawl through the posts on here.
All they want at this stage is succinct facts from your recollection of the incident.
May I suggest you rewrite the form, or request another if you have already sent it off. The AAIB are a bunch of professional pilots, engineers and investigators who do not have the inclination to become involved in a debate on a bulletin board.
Thanks
Please don't ignore an AAIB request for information by referring them here. It is not really cricket to ask them to trawl through the posts on here.
All they want at this stage is succinct facts from your recollection of the incident.
May I suggest you rewrite the form, or request another if you have already sent it off. The AAIB are a bunch of professional pilots, engineers and investigators who do not have the inclination to become involved in a debate on a bulletin board.
Thanks
Unless you actually go to the the bother of tracing his IP address then how do you actually even know that you are chatting with the unfortunate Biggles hero on here anyway?? He could be a troll! I'm sure it is him but can they really use this in any future court case? I personally think far too much importance is placed on these anonymous forums. Even tracing an IP address, what does that prove? I had three different friends all using my PC a few years ago and logging onto pprune, was I liable for what they posted?
Having said all that, if I were Vince I would NOT be posting on here!!...But then maybe I am Vince....wibble....
Having said all that, if I were Vince I would NOT be posting on here!!...But then maybe I am Vince....wibble....
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Vince, as Mad Jock states, though we 'hide behind' user names the aviation world in Scotland is a very small one and many of us know who each other is.
For example, just on this thread alone, I was at OATS with Mad Jock many years ago and have had many a pint with him (I also remember him walking the streets of Oxford barefoot but that’s another story!). I have been on a couple of nights out in EDI many moons ago with 10W and enjoyed one of the hottest currys known to man. I have flown in close formation with CRX only a few months ago and we share a passion for a certain 'rubber band U/C' little aircraft. I have also been on the receiving end of a very good service from Fishbang and his team many times in a variety of aircraft.....thats to name but a few...
I have tried my best not to pass judgement to this point but I suspect as many others have suggested that you co-operate fully with the AAIB and take on board any recommendations they make with regards to further training requirements.
Best of luck however it goes and hopefully you'll come out the other side a better and safer pilot!
UA
For example, just on this thread alone, I was at OATS with Mad Jock many years ago and have had many a pint with him (I also remember him walking the streets of Oxford barefoot but that’s another story!). I have been on a couple of nights out in EDI many moons ago with 10W and enjoyed one of the hottest currys known to man. I have flown in close formation with CRX only a few months ago and we share a passion for a certain 'rubber band U/C' little aircraft. I have also been on the receiving end of a very good service from Fishbang and his team many times in a variety of aircraft.....thats to name but a few...
I have tried my best not to pass judgement to this point but I suspect as many others have suggested that you co-operate fully with the AAIB and take on board any recommendations they make with regards to further training requirements.
Best of luck however it goes and hopefully you'll come out the other side a better and safer pilot!
UA
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Having watched this thread develop over the past week I do wonder about what makes some PPRuNers tick.
Vince has given his side of the story, if AVGH is indeed Biggles, which illustrates that , no matter how well we think we plan, things can go wrong. Initially I was somewaht sceptical about how the accident came about and quationed the ability of the pilot. However, what I have realised is that we all look at things slightly differently and there are not always rights and wrongs.
OK, if there has been an ATC infringement that does need to be seriously investigated and the AAIB need to be satisfied that there are no inherent problems with the aircraft design that contributed to the accident.
Frankly, until there is a full report we don't know and can't tell if fuel exhaustion was a cause or only a contributory factor ( fuel starvation due to low levels). As for his flight planning I can think of 20 different ways to plan a route from Barrow to Kinloss to avoid terrain, controlled airspace, obstacles, low cloud, etc. etc. and have any number of potential diversion airfields available as I flew north. Would any of these be any better than the direct track with Dundee as an diversion? - only in my opinion. And that's my point.
VH and any pilot should be free to plan what he/she sees as the most suitable route given the A/C available and the prevailing weather conditions. The responsibility rests with the PIC.
Was this flight carried out safely - I cannot judge, based on the hearsay evidence here. Certainly, there appear to have been issues with ATC at Scottish and around Edinburgh and, with hindsight, Vince may have cause to consider whether this transit at his chosen height was wise. If an infringement did occur then technically safety has been compromised.
The fuel planning is a matter for reflection because the decision to divert was made after the point at which it would have been obviuos thet Kinloss couldn't have been reached on remaining fuel. However, if there were 50 mins available this should have been plenty to divert to Dundee or an alternate.
If you accept Vince's account the engine failue may have been as a result of a low fuel state. The forced landing in the tree may have been as a result on inexperience and no PPLs practice forced landings enough. And even when they do they often make a mess of things when it happens for real - fact!
I didn't hear any of the radio work on the day but what goes for good RT in club flying will often sound amateurish against the clipped tones of professionals. Again, maybe some retraining is required but without a full transcript I will not judge.
Finally, can I say that I have heard some absolute howlers from fully trained commercial pilots at Edinburgh and elsewhere. Many are from foreign crew but there have been plenty form those that should know better. The best/worst of these was a Russian military A/C leaving edinburgh with a faulty transponder. They had no squawk and were told that Scottish wouldn't be able to acept them without one. These guys took off, turned right across the city and were last heard reporting enroute via newcastle!
Vince has given his side of the story, if AVGH is indeed Biggles, which illustrates that , no matter how well we think we plan, things can go wrong. Initially I was somewaht sceptical about how the accident came about and quationed the ability of the pilot. However, what I have realised is that we all look at things slightly differently and there are not always rights and wrongs.
OK, if there has been an ATC infringement that does need to be seriously investigated and the AAIB need to be satisfied that there are no inherent problems with the aircraft design that contributed to the accident.
Frankly, until there is a full report we don't know and can't tell if fuel exhaustion was a cause or only a contributory factor ( fuel starvation due to low levels). As for his flight planning I can think of 20 different ways to plan a route from Barrow to Kinloss to avoid terrain, controlled airspace, obstacles, low cloud, etc. etc. and have any number of potential diversion airfields available as I flew north. Would any of these be any better than the direct track with Dundee as an diversion? - only in my opinion. And that's my point.
VH and any pilot should be free to plan what he/she sees as the most suitable route given the A/C available and the prevailing weather conditions. The responsibility rests with the PIC.
Was this flight carried out safely - I cannot judge, based on the hearsay evidence here. Certainly, there appear to have been issues with ATC at Scottish and around Edinburgh and, with hindsight, Vince may have cause to consider whether this transit at his chosen height was wise. If an infringement did occur then technically safety has been compromised.
The fuel planning is a matter for reflection because the decision to divert was made after the point at which it would have been obviuos thet Kinloss couldn't have been reached on remaining fuel. However, if there were 50 mins available this should have been plenty to divert to Dundee or an alternate.
If you accept Vince's account the engine failue may have been as a result of a low fuel state. The forced landing in the tree may have been as a result on inexperience and no PPLs practice forced landings enough. And even when they do they often make a mess of things when it happens for real - fact!
I didn't hear any of the radio work on the day but what goes for good RT in club flying will often sound amateurish against the clipped tones of professionals. Again, maybe some retraining is required but without a full transcript I will not judge.
Finally, can I say that I have heard some absolute howlers from fully trained commercial pilots at Edinburgh and elsewhere. Many are from foreign crew but there have been plenty form those that should know better. The best/worst of these was a Russian military A/C leaving edinburgh with a faulty transponder. They had no squawk and were told that Scottish wouldn't be able to acept them without one. These guys took off, turned right across the city and were last heard reporting enroute via newcastle!
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Entertaining
This thread has made entertaining reading if nothing else - but it could have been even better if it had happened a year or so ago and he had diverted to Oban!
One thing useful to have come out of this debate has been that what some of us take for granted as being common knowledge is often no such thing.
For all his faults, Vince seems to have been completely unaware of the potential fuel indication and flow problems from a high wing, relatively flat dihedral aircraft with wing tanks. Most of us with experience of these types will probably be only too familiar with the potential isses, particularly those with experience of one or two of the microlights with this configuration that have had problems in the past (the Foxbat and CT spring to mind as two obvious candidates).
Vince seems to have been unaware that the usable fuel was less than the total fuel by 6 litres. He also seems to have been unaware of the fuel cross feed problem that can occur if the aircraft is flown slightly out of balance (as might be slightly more likely in a microlight that is just one-up and has no aileron trim).
In my own mind, based largely on Vince's own testimony, I'm certain that fuel starvation was the reason for the engine stoppage. I wonder if anyone thought to check the float bowls for fuel after the accident? If they were found to be empty then this would be a pretty good confirmation that this is what happened.
Having a few litres of fuel in the tank after the aircraft had run out of fuel would be completely normal for this type, of that I'm sure, so this is no proof at all that lack of fuel wasn't the cause.
How many pilot's aren't familiar with the technical details of their aircraft? It's in the syllabus for microlight pilots and I know that the old GFT included a bit on the ground at the end where the pilot was given an oral test of his/her understanding of some of the technical quirks of his/her aircraft. I wonder if this is still the case?
It seems clear that Vince was under the serious misapprehension that he had enough usable fuel for his journey, when it seems very obvious to some of us that he didn't and should have planned to take on fuel much sooner than he did.
I was always taught that trip planning included 30 mins extra reserve fuel for loitering about, extra climbs etc, plus however much extra was needed to take account of any probable en-route diversions due to weather. I think I'd have probably planned on about 45 mins to 1 hours extra fuel for the last leg of Vince's trip (Barrow to Kinloss), based on the information we've been given here.
Microlight fuel burn is notoriously susceptible to a wide variation, based on density, climb profiles, weight etc, which adds another big variable into the equation. My old microlight would cruise one-up with a burn of around 8 litres per hour, but could easily be pushed up to 12 litres per hour with a few long climbs, or in bad conditions (a 50% increase is significant if you've only got a small tank!). I always used to assume that it'd burn 12 litres per hour, then be pleasantly surprised if I didn't need to make a planned fuel stop. In my view I was being sensible, but my guess is that Vince might think I was just being daft not to assume that I'd always only burn 8 litres per hour...........
VP
For all his faults, Vince seems to have been completely unaware of the potential fuel indication and flow problems from a high wing, relatively flat dihedral aircraft with wing tanks. Most of us with experience of these types will probably be only too familiar with the potential isses, particularly those with experience of one or two of the microlights with this configuration that have had problems in the past (the Foxbat and CT spring to mind as two obvious candidates).
Vince seems to have been unaware that the usable fuel was less than the total fuel by 6 litres. He also seems to have been unaware of the fuel cross feed problem that can occur if the aircraft is flown slightly out of balance (as might be slightly more likely in a microlight that is just one-up and has no aileron trim).
In my own mind, based largely on Vince's own testimony, I'm certain that fuel starvation was the reason for the engine stoppage. I wonder if anyone thought to check the float bowls for fuel after the accident? If they were found to be empty then this would be a pretty good confirmation that this is what happened.
Having a few litres of fuel in the tank after the aircraft had run out of fuel would be completely normal for this type, of that I'm sure, so this is no proof at all that lack of fuel wasn't the cause.
How many pilot's aren't familiar with the technical details of their aircraft? It's in the syllabus for microlight pilots and I know that the old GFT included a bit on the ground at the end where the pilot was given an oral test of his/her understanding of some of the technical quirks of his/her aircraft. I wonder if this is still the case?
It seems clear that Vince was under the serious misapprehension that he had enough usable fuel for his journey, when it seems very obvious to some of us that he didn't and should have planned to take on fuel much sooner than he did.
I was always taught that trip planning included 30 mins extra reserve fuel for loitering about, extra climbs etc, plus however much extra was needed to take account of any probable en-route diversions due to weather. I think I'd have probably planned on about 45 mins to 1 hours extra fuel for the last leg of Vince's trip (Barrow to Kinloss), based on the information we've been given here.
Microlight fuel burn is notoriously susceptible to a wide variation, based on density, climb profiles, weight etc, which adds another big variable into the equation. My old microlight would cruise one-up with a burn of around 8 litres per hour, but could easily be pushed up to 12 litres per hour with a few long climbs, or in bad conditions (a 50% increase is significant if you've only got a small tank!). I always used to assume that it'd burn 12 litres per hour, then be pleasantly surprised if I didn't need to make a planned fuel stop. In my view I was being sensible, but my guess is that Vince might think I was just being daft not to assume that I'd always only burn 8 litres per hour...........
VP
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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(I'd be using my real name on PPRuNe except that at the time I joined essentially nobody at all used their real name, and I didn't want to look odd.)
Of course there are reasons why ATCOs and Professional Pilots prefer to remain anonymous, but those reasons do not apply to amateurs and I am quite sure that most people use their funny names simply because they feel like they are playing Secret Seven or Swallows and Amazons.
I am equally sure that the reason that people on here get so rude and unpleasant is because of the anonymity. I know that anyone who cares can find my eMail address and telephone number in seconds and that is a really good incentive not to call people w@nkers, to$$ers and complete furkin morons.
I wish a few others on here would change step.
I am more commonly on two other aviation forums. On PPL/IR real names are de rigeur and no-one is rude or unpleasant. On Flyer it is about half in half and Ian Seager occasionally has to tell us off and here it is 99/1 anonymity and no constructive dialogue is possible without people becoming unpleasant.
Surely the link can be made?
Well said Timothy, this thread has become very personal, rude and insulting. I believe that some posters have missed the point of the the forum.
Lets keep it professional people!
It is entertaining though, mind you if anyone prefers real vitriolic, check out the microlight web site!
Lets keep it professional people!
It is entertaining though, mind you if anyone prefers real vitriolic, check out the microlight web site!
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Please provide a link
And after reading some of the microlight forums I don't think anyone here is taring the whole of the microlight community over this event.
Although your flex wings are a pain in the arse in the circuit and I wish you could strap something to them to paint on primary radar.
And after reading some of the microlight forums I don't think anyone here is taring the whole of the microlight community over this event.
Although your flex wings are a pain in the arse in the circuit and I wish you could strap something to them to paint on primary radar.
Last edited by mad_jock; 19th Aug 2009 at 14:48.
Mad Jock,
I did not suggest that there is an agenda against mirolighters, for your information, I fly sep, occasionally P2 in microlights including the CTSW.
Check out BMAA microlight forum for some real ding dongs!
Regards
T18
I did not suggest that there is an agenda against mirolighters, for your information, I fly sep, occasionally P2 in microlights including the CTSW.
Check out BMAA microlight forum for some real ding dongs!
Regards
T18
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The level of rudeness on this forum comes as a huge shock when one first encounters it. Certain posters set themselves up as aviation experts and poo-poo anything anyone with alleged less experience has to say.
After a while one learns to separate the wheat from the chaff and benefit from those who make a genuine contribution.
It goes without saying that not every poster is what they make themselves out to be.
As to using real names - well, taking the above into account is that not difficult to understand?
The laugh about this thread is that usually this kind of thread goes on endlessly about the stupidity of some or pilot who is now dead. In this case the pilot is alive and well and very much in the discussion!
After a while one learns to separate the wheat from the chaff and benefit from those who make a genuine contribution.
It goes without saying that not every poster is what they make themselves out to be.
As to using real names - well, taking the above into account is that not difficult to understand?
The laugh about this thread is that usually this kind of thread goes on endlessly about the stupidity of some or pilot who is now dead. In this case the pilot is alive and well and very much in the discussion!
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Molesworth,
I would not call it shocking just typical. I wish I could sort out the wheat from the chaff but as with most flying forums there is little to gain except some entertainment from threads involving accidents.
No doubt I`ll get slated for saying so but I couldn`t give a toss.
If this thread ever gets back on track I`ll buy everyone a pint, including biggles himself
I would not call it shocking just typical. I wish I could sort out the wheat from the chaff but as with most flying forums there is little to gain except some entertainment from threads involving accidents.
No doubt I`ll get slated for saying so but I couldn`t give a toss.
If this thread ever gets back on track I`ll buy everyone a pint, including biggles himself