Light aircraft down in Dundee
Vince,
Thank you for coming on here, but you really do need to look very hard at the real causes of this accident (it is clear already that there is more than one causal factor, as is usually the case with aviation accidents).
You say you didn't run out of fuel, but also say that you were down to, or below, the minimum usable fuel level (6 litres is min usable for the CT, I believe). The immediate conclusion is that you did, indeed run out of fuel, as "running out" in an aircraft is letting the level drop below minimum usable. Flying down to within a litre or two of min usable is pretty poor airmanship, in my view. The engine had to stop for a reason, and my money is on the AAIB finding that it stopped because there was no fuel reaching it, which means you ran out of fuel.
You also say that you flew as directed by an ATC unit, implying that their directions may have contributed to your predicament, rather then your own judgement. I'm unfamiliar with the area, but were you in controlled airspace at the time of the accident? If you weren't, then an ATC unit cannot give you directions, they can only advise. In the open FIR (class G) you are responsible for your own navigation and actions, not an ATC unit.
It was reported earlier that you landed at a field for fuel, but couldn't get any, so you took off again. If this is true, then the implication is that you initiated a flight (from that field) with doubts as to whether you had enough fuel. If this is the case, then it is not just poor airmanship, it's bordering on negligence.
Lastly, you were flying a microlight aeroplane. Just like everyone else who has learned to fly a microlight I am absolutely certain that it was drummed into you by your instructor to EXPECT an engine failure. Engine failures and forced landings are (or at least were) an inherent part of microlighting, so the syllabus places a fairly hefty emphasis on flying defensively (i.e ALWAYS thinking about where you're going to land WHEN the engine stops) and avoiding flying over terrain where an engine failure might leave you in the position you got yourself into. You were tested on engine failures as part of your GST. You had to demonstrate to the Examiner that you could cope with an engine failure at ANY point in a flight and get the aircraft safely back on the ground (crashing into a tree is not "getting the aircraft safely back on the ground", no matter how incredibly lucky you were to have go away with it this time).
I am very glad that you escaped relatively unscathed, but there is no doubt in my mind that your actions contributed to the majority of the causal factors in this accident, as I am sure will be revealed when the accident report is published. The biggest single problem you have seems to be an inability to accept that you may have made a chain of serious errors of judgement.
Was it wise to plan to fly over the top of high cloud in a VFR only microlight?
What were you going to do from that height if the cloud closed up beneath you and you lost sight of the ground?
Was it wise to cause such disruption in controlled airspace?
Was it wise to take off from a field knowing that you may not have enough fuel to complete your flight?
Was it wise to ignore the minimum usable fuel limit and carry on flying with just a litre or two above it?
Was it wise to fly over terrain where safe landing options were non-existent in the event of engine failure?
Was it wise to believe that emulating the actions of a fictional pilot in a novel was a better course of action than your training?
Unfortunately, your actions and your subsequent comments in the press have just made all microlight pilots look like a bunch of maverick incompetents, which is far from the truth - most are very careful and professional pilots. Microlighters have worked hard over many years to overcome the prejudices that some aviators have regarding them. Your actions have set that hard work back and will have created a great deal of extra work for many people.
You had an entirely avoidable accident that was most probably wholly caused by your own poor judgement. Please accept that, learn from it and become a better pilot because of it. As another instructor has commented earlier in this thread, if you don't learn these lessons and change your approach to flying you will have another accident, I'm sure, and you may not have luck on your side next time.
VP
Thank you for coming on here, but you really do need to look very hard at the real causes of this accident (it is clear already that there is more than one causal factor, as is usually the case with aviation accidents).
You say you didn't run out of fuel, but also say that you were down to, or below, the minimum usable fuel level (6 litres is min usable for the CT, I believe). The immediate conclusion is that you did, indeed run out of fuel, as "running out" in an aircraft is letting the level drop below minimum usable. Flying down to within a litre or two of min usable is pretty poor airmanship, in my view. The engine had to stop for a reason, and my money is on the AAIB finding that it stopped because there was no fuel reaching it, which means you ran out of fuel.
You also say that you flew as directed by an ATC unit, implying that their directions may have contributed to your predicament, rather then your own judgement. I'm unfamiliar with the area, but were you in controlled airspace at the time of the accident? If you weren't, then an ATC unit cannot give you directions, they can only advise. In the open FIR (class G) you are responsible for your own navigation and actions, not an ATC unit.
It was reported earlier that you landed at a field for fuel, but couldn't get any, so you took off again. If this is true, then the implication is that you initiated a flight (from that field) with doubts as to whether you had enough fuel. If this is the case, then it is not just poor airmanship, it's bordering on negligence.
Lastly, you were flying a microlight aeroplane. Just like everyone else who has learned to fly a microlight I am absolutely certain that it was drummed into you by your instructor to EXPECT an engine failure. Engine failures and forced landings are (or at least were) an inherent part of microlighting, so the syllabus places a fairly hefty emphasis on flying defensively (i.e ALWAYS thinking about where you're going to land WHEN the engine stops) and avoiding flying over terrain where an engine failure might leave you in the position you got yourself into. You were tested on engine failures as part of your GST. You had to demonstrate to the Examiner that you could cope with an engine failure at ANY point in a flight and get the aircraft safely back on the ground (crashing into a tree is not "getting the aircraft safely back on the ground", no matter how incredibly lucky you were to have go away with it this time).
I am very glad that you escaped relatively unscathed, but there is no doubt in my mind that your actions contributed to the majority of the causal factors in this accident, as I am sure will be revealed when the accident report is published. The biggest single problem you have seems to be an inability to accept that you may have made a chain of serious errors of judgement.
Was it wise to plan to fly over the top of high cloud in a VFR only microlight?
What were you going to do from that height if the cloud closed up beneath you and you lost sight of the ground?
Was it wise to cause such disruption in controlled airspace?
Was it wise to take off from a field knowing that you may not have enough fuel to complete your flight?
Was it wise to ignore the minimum usable fuel limit and carry on flying with just a litre or two above it?
Was it wise to fly over terrain where safe landing options were non-existent in the event of engine failure?
Was it wise to believe that emulating the actions of a fictional pilot in a novel was a better course of action than your training?
Unfortunately, your actions and your subsequent comments in the press have just made all microlight pilots look like a bunch of maverick incompetents, which is far from the truth - most are very careful and professional pilots. Microlighters have worked hard over many years to overcome the prejudices that some aviators have regarding them. Your actions have set that hard work back and will have created a great deal of extra work for many people.
You had an entirely avoidable accident that was most probably wholly caused by your own poor judgement. Please accept that, learn from it and become a better pilot because of it. As another instructor has commented earlier in this thread, if you don't learn these lessons and change your approach to flying you will have another accident, I'm sure, and you may not have luck on your side next time.
VP
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Well, I suppose we might have been a little unfair. One can’t help but wish that "pancake" landings had been on my JAR FCL syllabus. I must speak to Malcolm about that. 
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thank you fisbangwallop. your name is a bit too close to my recent landing style! VERY keen to learn from constructive comment, and to help others learn from any errors too. Lesson one. Say nothing to the Press - any mistakes they print will be magnified 1000 fold and thrown in your face by PPRuNe ! Vince
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Vince....I think you owe a big vote of thanks to the Lady controller who kept all those big birds away from you as you trundlled through the Scottish TMA at FL100....
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Flight design say safe to 1/2 litre (email yesterday)
No stop at a field for fuel. FictionI am afraid
Was in good Vis at 10,000 feet, and well clear of the mulitiple layers of cloud. If I had needed to descen I would have done so to the East of Edinburgh controlled airspace where weather was a bit clearer. Someone suggested that my route should have been there anyway, but the plot went straight through the Forth Bridge -try it yourself.
Stuff about Stottish Radar seems to be from one person listening in. Maybe a pilot? Let the Inspector decide. My track was straight as a die (see satnav later).
As for the rest I should like to discuss with you but find it frustrating to try to remember your comments and reply to them - is there no way of showing the comment and the reply sheet together? Vince
re Controller - of course, but I asked permission before entering the area and was granted. Flew in a dead straight line (see satnav later). My apoloies if that was wrong. Leave the enquiry to decide.
No stop at a field for fuel. FictionI am afraid
Was in good Vis at 10,000 feet, and well clear of the mulitiple layers of cloud. If I had needed to descen I would have done so to the East of Edinburgh controlled airspace where weather was a bit clearer. Someone suggested that my route should have been there anyway, but the plot went straight through the Forth Bridge -try it yourself.
Stuff about Stottish Radar seems to be from one person listening in. Maybe a pilot? Let the Inspector decide. My track was straight as a die (see satnav later).
As for the rest I should like to discuss with you but find it frustrating to try to remember your comments and reply to them - is there no way of showing the comment and the reply sheet together? Vince
re Controller - of course, but I asked permission before entering the area and was granted. Flew in a dead straight line (see satnav later). My apoloies if that was wrong. Leave the enquiry to decide.
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Vince...no thats dead right and not wrong at all...it is calss D airspace and providing you have a clearance to enter which you did you can indeed operate VFR......the fact was it was a rather busy piece of airsapce and one not too used to seeing an ultralite flying at 70kts!! at FL100 
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VP - all accidents are avoidable- but then would we ever fly?. Hope you never have one. Vince
Point taken fisbangwalop, She did have to ask twice for the aircraft type.....
Point taken fisbangwalop, She did have to ask twice for the aircraft type.....
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Press & Journal website
I found this on the Press & Journal website. Its' a response posted by a reader to the amazing story
Plane recovered after crash into tree, Biggles-inspired pilot ‘will be back in cockpit soon’
Reply by reader. A classic.
Readers' Comments
Mr Hagedorn’s wife Carole yesterday said the experience had not put her husband off flying. She said: “He’ll be back in the cockpit as soon as he possibly can. He’s one of life’s great adventurers. I hope he stays out of Scotland this time for our safety.
Keith Stirton
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Plane recovered after crash into tree, Biggles-inspired pilot ‘will be back in cockpit soon’
Reply by reader. A classic.
Readers' Comments
Mr Hagedorn’s wife Carole yesterday said the experience had not put her husband off flying. She said: “He’ll be back in the cockpit as soon as he possibly can. He’s one of life’s great adventurers. I hope he stays out of Scotland this time for our safety.
Keith Stirton
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<< Look forward to a new CT - cnnot wait to get airborne again. >>
CAA, ATC units, Aircraft insurers, police, hospital A & E depts, and the general public, be warned. This overbearing, pompous, arrogant and incompetent idiot intends to buy another CT and 'fly' again.
Next time this fool crashes some innocent might become a victim.
We recommend that mentors receive training to become more skilful at listening, This from his own website!
CAA, ATC units, Aircraft insurers, police, hospital A & E depts, and the general public, be warned. This overbearing, pompous, arrogant and incompetent idiot intends to buy another CT and 'fly' again.
Next time this fool crashes some innocent might become a victim.
We recommend that mentors receive training to become more skilful at listening, This from his own website!
...having a distinct preference for talking rather than listening...
, and being apparently incapable of accepting any responsibility for their mistakes... [they] never, to my recollection, ever felt they had made a mistake. It was always “because of this, that or the other factor” beyond their control.
Mr H - a simple suggestion... You have 2 ears and 1 mouth, use them in that proportion.
Or put more succinctly, JUST SHUT THE F**K UP!
But wait, here are yet more tales of woe and misery, Mr H moaning about his most recent difficulties...
If I have learned one thing it is how difficult it is to get into a site like this and respond
Sadly, with your bumptious, arrogant and 'knowing better than you' attitude, combined with your distinct inability to listen and learn, and your propensity to blame everybody and everything but yourself for getting into dreadful situations of your own making, you will forever be an accident waiting to happen in whatever situation you are in, aviation or otherwise.
Last edited by pilotmike; 15th Aug 2009 at 09:29.
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AVGH, why 70 knots in the glide? Why not 40 with full flaps?
On speaking to the press: Why do that in the first place? At the very least it comes across as wanting the limelight.
I'm glad you survived and didn't hurt anyone on the ground, sounds to me you should have diverted much sooner to a different airfield considering your own statement about remaining fuel. At the very least that is an error on your side and a grave one, it's called get-home-itis and is the most common reason for people getting killed in planes. Read the mags and you'll know.
On speaking to the press: Why do that in the first place? At the very least it comes across as wanting the limelight.
I'm glad you survived and didn't hurt anyone on the ground, sounds to me you should have diverted much sooner to a different airfield considering your own statement about remaining fuel. At the very least that is an error on your side and a grave one, it's called get-home-itis and is the most common reason for people getting killed in planes. Read the mags and you'll know.
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Vince
I must admire your guts or ??? in coming into this site with so much flack flying around. I think I would have slunk off and hidden.
Personally I like colourful people we need a bit of colour now and again and your incident certainly brightened up this forum
When and if you get the new aircraft please do get a good instructor to access your flying you have a daughter who loves you.
I would actually be happy to come on a flight with you that aircraft appears so interesting? I am sure others here would too (not all at the same time otherwise we would pancake into another tree )
Anyway take care do learn from this and do get checked out
Pace
I must admire your guts or ??? in coming into this site with so much flack flying around. I think I would have slunk off and hidden.
Personally I like colourful people we need a bit of colour now and again and your incident certainly brightened up this forum
When and if you get the new aircraft please do get a good instructor to access your flying you have a daughter who loves you.
I would actually be happy to come on a flight with you that aircraft appears so interesting? I am sure others here would too (not all at the same time otherwise we would pancake into another tree
)Anyway take care do learn from this and do get checked out
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 15th Aug 2009 at 10:09.
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Hi Vince
If you were able to see either sight gauge with fuel in it, you did not fly sufficiently un-coordinated (if at all) to starve your engine. FD's half litre is alas a tad unrealistic. When I am 101% sure of my dead stick landing abilities with zero damage (presently 70%) maybe then I will know by doing it for real.
Some forumz have a quote icon, not this forum, so cut, paste and indent if you must.
On the basis you have had a genuine engine failure, I predict you will be not only exonerated by AAIB but commended for creative lateral piloting skills
What models do you fly? I do 3d heli sh1t, sort of good average. Models are a bonus when learning to fly, and if you crash you will not die.
If you were able to see either sight gauge with fuel in it, you did not fly sufficiently un-coordinated (if at all) to starve your engine. FD's half litre is alas a tad unrealistic. When I am 101% sure of my dead stick landing abilities with zero damage (presently 70%) maybe then I will know by doing it for real.
Some forumz have a quote icon, not this forum, so cut, paste and indent if you must.
On the basis you have had a genuine engine failure, I predict you will be not only exonerated by AAIB but commended for creative lateral piloting skills
What models do you fly? I do 3d heli sh1t, sort of good average. Models are a bonus when learning to fly, and if you crash you will not die.
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Vince first of all I presume dealing with the authorities was quite low stress compared to dealing with your daughter.
The pilot that heard your transit is definately a pilot (a short stocky one) in fact he used to be my company type rating examiner. He is not a big plane only person and in fact a CRE on SEP's. In fact his own aircraft from what I can see of it, the main gear has alot of rubber bands keeping it together.
And for the other's after doing a ferry the day after the comments about crap RT could be leveled at 80% of the traffic speaking to scottish info. So much so my gash RT was getting used as an example of how to do it by an instructor at tayside.
Anyway Vince if you want to get back into the saddle, pm me. I might have to ferry a C172 down to Dundee and back from INV on Tuesday or Wednesday or if you just want a fun hour of dual to get your confidence back I can arrange that as well (I don't think I will be able to last a hour without taking the piss though
) we can leave any instructor debriefs until you get back home.
And don't try and answer and justify yourself to everyone. Its done now and you just need to move forward learn from the experence. Most high houred pilots have done daft things, the only difference between you and us is that we managed to get away with a sweaty arse and a few more grey hairs instead of stuck up a tree.
MJ
The pilot that heard your transit is definately a pilot (a short stocky one) in fact he used to be my company type rating examiner. He is not a big plane only person and in fact a CRE on SEP's. In fact his own aircraft from what I can see of it, the main gear has alot of rubber bands keeping it together.
And for the other's after doing a ferry the day after the comments about crap RT could be leveled at 80% of the traffic speaking to scottish info. So much so my gash RT was getting used as an example of how to do it by an instructor at tayside.
Anyway Vince if you want to get back into the saddle, pm me. I might have to ferry a C172 down to Dundee and back from INV on Tuesday or Wednesday or if you just want a fun hour of dual to get your confidence back I can arrange that as well (I don't think I will be able to last a hour without taking the piss though
) we can leave any instructor debriefs until you get back home.And don't try and answer and justify yourself to everyone. Its done now and you just need to move forward learn from the experence. Most high houred pilots have done daft things, the only difference between you and us is that we managed to get away with a sweaty arse and a few more grey hairs instead of stuck up a tree.
MJ
I think I meant some forum software automatically embeds the quote.
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Mad Jock...Quote "And for the other's after doing a ferry the day after the comments about crap RT could be leveled at 80% of the traffic speaking to scottish info. So much so my gash RT was getting used as an example of how to do it by an instructor at tayside." Unquote
To be fair "mad jock" the standard of R/T that talks to me every day on Scottish Info is pretty good...I have no complaints, and for those that are not so hot well I just guess they are nervous of speaking to ATC.....so for those that are nervous dont be affraid...I am here to help and to be honest my own R/T may at times be a little slack..
And p.s. thanks for the photo's
To be fair "mad jock" the standard of R/T that talks to me every day on Scottish Info is pretty good...I have no complaints, and for those that are not so hot well I just guess they are nervous of speaking to ATC.....so for those that are nervous dont be affraid...I am here to help and to be honest my own R/T may at times be a little slack..
And p.s. thanks for the photo's
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honest my own R/T may at times be a little slack
I think mine was "G-xxxx C172 departed Dundee to Inverness, 2000ft at Rattray, routing A9, estimating INV at min 35, request Basic service" a henious crime to some.
Must be turning into a grumpy old git, it just seems nobody is teaching the words "rodger", "wilco" and "affirm" or for the exclusive use in the scottish FIR "aye" and "nae bother".
Most just read everything back.
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And don't try and answer and justify yourself to everyone. Its done now and you just need to move forward learn from the experence. Most high houred pilots have done daft things, the only difference between you and us is that we managed to get away with a sweaty arse and a few more grey hairs instead of stuck up a tree.
I remember a recent twin star takeoff crash out of Lands End never got the flack that this thread did and that was with a so called experienced pilot.
Pace