Light aircraft down in Dundee
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Reading that it comes across a lot better than the TV clip.
Even the Biggles statement doesnt sound so bad.
The guy obviously thought he was in a mess and what would his childhood hero have done.
Often films or books read or viewed as kids sow the seeds for future passions and Biggles must have been a big inspiration to many pilots flying today.
I hope he doesnt give up flying but does take stock and learns from this experience. I also hope that he gets some coaching in flight planning and management especially regarding checking his fuel and reserves before taking to the air again
Pace
Even the Biggles statement doesnt sound so bad.
The guy obviously thought he was in a mess and what would his childhood hero have done.
Often films or books read or viewed as kids sow the seeds for future passions and Biggles must have been a big inspiration to many pilots flying today.
I hope he doesnt give up flying but does take stock and learns from this experience. I also hope that he gets some coaching in flight planning and management especially regarding checking his fuel and reserves before taking to the air again
Pace
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Anyway, some good news for all those "he is not a good pilot because he flys a plane that is lighter than a tin can" (just in case you think i am biased, I fly a 200mph tin can and have not owned /flown a microlight for years) He has recently ordered an brand new absolutely beatifull twin lycoming I0360 pusher powered air Taxi to provide comercial flights around the UK. so really he is one of us, not just a microlight pilot!! 
I still love him to bits though!!
I still love him to bits though!!
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He has recently ordered an brand new absolutely beatifull twin lycoming I0360 pusher powered air Taxi to provide comercial flights around the UK. so really he is one of us, not just a microlight pilot!!
Pace
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OK, just to summarise and make sure I've followed this: He was flying from Barrow, and during this flight he caused some issues round EDI - did he infringe CAS? Then later he noticed he was low on fuel, and while attempting to divert the donk quit and he ended up doing a forced landing onto a golf course and the best place he could find to land was on top of a tree as recommended by Biggles? Which he approached at 70kts?
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Looks like some dodgy journos from a certain Weegie rag of questionable quality have cottoned onto this thread...
Golf course crash pilot blasted as 'complete idiot' by internet pilots - The Daily Record
Careful what you are all saying folks...
Smithy
Golf course crash pilot blasted as 'complete idiot' by internet pilots - The Daily Record
Careful what you are all saying folks...
Smithy
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Captain Smithy
A good lesson to us to beware about what we do say without knowing the facts.
Only the pilot knows really what happened and there is no saying that he has disclosed all those facts.
ie why take to a tree? was he trying to glide to a clearing beyond?
Was the tree density too great to get enough landing distance on the ground below? We dont know but we mock what we percieve.
Strangely his Biggles technique for landing in dense forest is correct and based on water landing apart from the gear.
His 70kts I guessed was his glide speed not his impact speed into the trees
Again I stress that I hope he continues in aviation but does really consider the mistakes which are fact and gets those gaps filled in preferably with an instructor.
Finally from this press report is the last line which should be the approach we all use with the so called press in any situations we get in ourselves and which he should have used earlier.
Pace
A good lesson to us to beware about what we do say without knowing the facts.
Only the pilot knows really what happened and there is no saying that he has disclosed all those facts.
ie why take to a tree? was he trying to glide to a clearing beyond?
Was the tree density too great to get enough landing distance on the ground below? We dont know but we mock what we percieve.
Strangely his Biggles technique for landing in dense forest is correct and based on water landing apart from the gear.
His 70kts I guessed was his glide speed not his impact speed into the trees
Again I stress that I hope he continues in aviation but does really consider the mistakes which are fact and gets those gaps filled in preferably with an instructor.
Finally from this press report is the last line which should be the approach we all use with the so called press in any situations we get in ourselves and which he should have used earlier.
Vince was not available for comment last night about the claims over his flying skills.
Last edited by Pace; 14th Aug 2009 at 09:26.
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As i understand it, he did recognise he was low on fuel and landed at a small airfield to get fuel but none was available so he took off again heading to a bigger airfield to get fuel, which i also understand he did a go around for reasons only he will know. after that is when the fan stopped
i have seen the pictures of this twin, its new and looks superb with a sort of loading bay at the back. cant remember its name though
i have seen the pictures of this twin, its new and looks superb with a sort of loading bay at the back. cant remember its name though
Unsurprisingly, the brain-dead journalist who 'wrote' the piece managed to attribute at least one quote that was about a totally different pilot as being about the guy in the tree. They never cease to amaze me - can't even get a copy and paste job right. Yes, journalist sponging stories off the board, I mean you!
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Kat,
THANK YOU.
That was my post that was totally misquoted and said it was about the incident pilot when it wasnt. I have deleted it now in case any other 'journalistically challenged' junior reporters also misquote me.
I saw the light with the Daily Record in 2001 when they ran a centre spread about how MS Flight Sim 2000 (then) was a threat to security and showed their reporter 'flying' into skyscrapers on his pc. They regarded it as a training aid for terrorists.
Makes the Daily Star seem like a good read.
CRX.
THANK YOU.
That was my post that was totally misquoted and said it was about the incident pilot when it wasnt. I have deleted it now in case any other 'journalistically challenged' junior reporters also misquote me.
I saw the light with the Daily Record in 2001 when they ran a centre spread about how MS Flight Sim 2000 (then) was a threat to security and showed their reporter 'flying' into skyscrapers on his pc. They regarded it as a training aid for terrorists.
Makes the Daily Star seem like a good read.
CRX.
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Pace,
A well balanced view which I think is fair in the circumstances. It is far too easy to leap to conclusions based on snippets of hearsay information. The Biggle story was perhaps the best way to explain to laymen (journalists).
All said and done, regardless of how and why he ended up making a forced landing he did walk away unscathed with no loss of life or damage to property. For this he must receive some credit. We will never know whether this was an ill judged mistake - that worked out well. Or a well reasoned and skilful approach into a tree where the pilot quickly assessed all the risks before using his expert handling skill to bring the aircraft to rest.
If you are ever going to hit a tree it is better to do so in the canopy then atthe base - Some years ago, I had the misfortune to witness a performance sports car disintegrate on colliding with tree. There was nothing recognisable after the accident and the tree - largely unscathed is still there! The gretest risk is perhaps that having landed 40ft up the aircraft then slips out of the tree - its not the fall that kills you but the sudden stop at the bottom. Ouch.
As the pilots wife explianed " my husband is an adveturer - planes, cars and motorbikes. He loves them all...." and no doubt his insurance premiums have just gone up.
We need characters like this to remind the rest of us how to do things properly - otherwise nobody would believe that it mattered.
A well balanced view which I think is fair in the circumstances. It is far too easy to leap to conclusions based on snippets of hearsay information. The Biggle story was perhaps the best way to explain to laymen (journalists).
All said and done, regardless of how and why he ended up making a forced landing he did walk away unscathed with no loss of life or damage to property. For this he must receive some credit. We will never know whether this was an ill judged mistake - that worked out well. Or a well reasoned and skilful approach into a tree where the pilot quickly assessed all the risks before using his expert handling skill to bring the aircraft to rest.
If you are ever going to hit a tree it is better to do so in the canopy then atthe base - Some years ago, I had the misfortune to witness a performance sports car disintegrate on colliding with tree. There was nothing recognisable after the accident and the tree - largely unscathed is still there! The gretest risk is perhaps that having landed 40ft up the aircraft then slips out of the tree - its not the fall that kills you but the sudden stop at the bottom. Ouch.
As the pilots wife explianed " my husband is an adveturer - planes, cars and motorbikes. He loves them all...." and no doubt his insurance premiums have just gone up.
We need characters like this to remind the rest of us how to do things properly - otherwise nobody would believe that it mattered.
Wow, reading through this thread, I am beginning to believe that Biggles was't real, perhaps even just a fictional character.
Looks like I may have to review my flying emergency procedures. Help!
Looks like I may have to review my flying emergency procedures. Help!
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As I said, I was feeling more charitable until I read the posts of what people heard of him on Scottish, which appear to be less hearsay and more fact.
Hence my earlier comments that I fully stand by.
Hence my earlier comments that I fully stand by.
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Having re-read the journos story - some things just don't add up.
If G - VINH left Walney " in the morning" a direct routing to Kinloss would give a distance of around 220nm. Lets allow an average speed of say 80kts ( I don't have the weather for that day but, allowing for climb and headwind etc. (This is against a stated cruise speed of 120Kts) and positioning to land this would give a total flight time of around 3 hours.
So if , sometime "in the morning" was even midday. he should have been arriving over the Moray coast at around 3 or 4pm. The a/c is listed as having a range of 1000nm ( 30 reserve) at 97kts so Kinloss was easily in range.
The track would have taken him either over the lake district towards Edinburgh ( my track was through the overhead of EDI which was perhaps the best optional the height he was reporting , via Perth ( just to the west of the airfield) up over the Angus glens toward royal Deeside keeping the Cairngorms to the west and continuing North until the Moray coast was in sight. If we allow for an initial leg to avoid the peaks around the lake district and a weather diversion that took him further east then this might account for his positioning well to the east of his original ( obvious) track. But, the accident was logged at 4.50pm.
Now, Caird Park is only 145nm or so from Walney island and even allowing for a half hour or so of mucking around trying to get back to Dundee airport (which is only 3nm or so to the south west of the crash site) I am puzzled as to where the time has gone? He could have got to where he did in a little over 2hours from Walney and still have enough fuel to fly to Kinloss and back again - if he started the day with full tanks.
If he did leave walney " in the morning " ( i.e before midday) is it small wonder that he was not only fatigued but running low on fuel 5 hours later when he still had 80 - 90nm to go ( without weather diversion etc.)
Where has he been? He is logged as stumbling through the Edinburgh Zone and we know he came to rest in a tree at teatime but what of the earlier part of the flight? When did he leave and would simple , very simple arithmetic not have alerted any pilot that the donkey was getting hungry?
I'm also a little bit fuzzy as to why he chose to aim at the golf course when, if you look at the location to the N of Dundee you will see acres of fields. All a bit of a mystery as to why you should rely on a childhood memory of a fictional character when there were a list of other options that had been available - before the fuel state became critical. No doubt, this man is oft to be seen at the side of a road with a little green can when he is out adventuring in his classic cars and motorbikes.
C42 - I'm intrigued. You say he is about to start an air taxi company with an unidentified pusher twin. Can you give more details. It is a business I think I might avoid!
If G - VINH left Walney " in the morning" a direct routing to Kinloss would give a distance of around 220nm. Lets allow an average speed of say 80kts ( I don't have the weather for that day but, allowing for climb and headwind etc. (This is against a stated cruise speed of 120Kts) and positioning to land this would give a total flight time of around 3 hours.
So if , sometime "in the morning" was even midday. he should have been arriving over the Moray coast at around 3 or 4pm. The a/c is listed as having a range of 1000nm ( 30 reserve) at 97kts so Kinloss was easily in range.
The track would have taken him either over the lake district towards Edinburgh ( my track was through the overhead of EDI which was perhaps the best optional the height he was reporting , via Perth ( just to the west of the airfield) up over the Angus glens toward royal Deeside keeping the Cairngorms to the west and continuing North until the Moray coast was in sight. If we allow for an initial leg to avoid the peaks around the lake district and a weather diversion that took him further east then this might account for his positioning well to the east of his original ( obvious) track. But, the accident was logged at 4.50pm.
Now, Caird Park is only 145nm or so from Walney island and even allowing for a half hour or so of mucking around trying to get back to Dundee airport (which is only 3nm or so to the south west of the crash site) I am puzzled as to where the time has gone? He could have got to where he did in a little over 2hours from Walney and still have enough fuel to fly to Kinloss and back again - if he started the day with full tanks.
If he did leave walney " in the morning " ( i.e before midday) is it small wonder that he was not only fatigued but running low on fuel 5 hours later when he still had 80 - 90nm to go ( without weather diversion etc.)
Where has he been? He is logged as stumbling through the Edinburgh Zone and we know he came to rest in a tree at teatime but what of the earlier part of the flight? When did he leave and would simple , very simple arithmetic not have alerted any pilot that the donkey was getting hungry?
I'm also a little bit fuzzy as to why he chose to aim at the golf course when, if you look at the location to the N of Dundee you will see acres of fields. All a bit of a mystery as to why you should rely on a childhood memory of a fictional character when there were a list of other options that had been available - before the fuel state became critical. No doubt, this man is oft to be seen at the side of a road with a little green can when he is out adventuring in his classic cars and motorbikes.
C42 - I'm intrigued. You say he is about to start an air taxi company with an unidentified pusher twin. Can you give more details. It is a business I think I might avoid!
It was with a mixture of sadness and irritation that I read about Mr Hagedorn’s apparently highly avoidable accident.
People who simply refuse to accept responsibility for their mistakes, people who refuse to listen and to learn will forever remain a danger to themselves, and more importantly, to the wider public. Choosing as he does, to bask in the limelight with stories of heroically ‘saving the day’, he shows no sign of taking even the first vital steps to becoming a safer pilot.
For some on here to blame his instructor or examiner is not fair. Many people present themselves for both flying instruction and indeed for examination for grant of PPL (or NPPL) who are of marginal ability. However, an examiner can only judge what is demonstrated on the day. Neither the instructor nor the examiner have any control over any possible degradation of performance, or their growing propensity for risk taking after the grant of a licence.
Possibly there is an over ‘inclusive’ attitude in some flying schools, demonstrated by a ‘we can teach anyone to fly’ attitude, which can give false expectation to some. A more realistic assessment at an early stage of flight training might well help to minimise later accidents by over ambitious pilots of marginally ability. By contrast, it was refreshing to hear in a Safety training lecture at a very early stage of my commercial helicopter fight training that “helicopters are not for everybody”.
Mr Hagendorn’s woeful tale and his manner on TV remind me of two particular students that I have at one time tried to instruct. They shared distinct similarities; being ‘older’, ‘intelligent’, of a somewhat ‘bumptious’ manner, having a distinct preference for talking rather than listening, and being apparently incapable of accepting any responsibility for their mistakes. Indeed the two in question never, to my recollection, ever felt they had made a mistake. It was always “because of this, that or the other factor” beyond their control.
The fact that they are intelligent sadly does nothing to help these people to learn, and thereby to become safer pilots. Quite the opposite. Their intelligence has allowed them to cruise through life being the ‘instructor’ not the ‘student’, and changing roles in later life is not something that comes easily to them. They will typically spend more time in pre-flight briefings talking rather than listening to the instructor. They will usually be trying to correct the instructor, based on their long-held and invariably erroneous ‘knowledge’ gained from dubious sources such as MS Flight Sim (or in Mr H’s case, Biggles books). Blind faith in these false props rather than the wise words from an expert instructor is a poor substitute for the day to day task of flying safely, and especially so in an emergency.
Both of the students that Mr H reminds me of went on to have serious accidents. Thankfully, like Mr H, the one who did eventually manage to get a PPL survived to tell the tale. Not so the other one.
Lets hope that Mr H takes this opportunity to have a real hard look at himself, to review his attitude to airmanship and his need to listen and learn from both his mistakes and from others who are wiser. This would give him his best chance to become a better pilot before it is too late. As an airline pilot who regularly flies a jet full of passengers in the EDI airspace that Mr H apparently violated, I am appalled to know that my passengers and I are being put at such serious risk by fools like him. The saddest part is that he seems to be completely unaware of the danger he is putting so many people in.
There are none so blind as those who refuse to listen.
People who simply refuse to accept responsibility for their mistakes, people who refuse to listen and to learn will forever remain a danger to themselves, and more importantly, to the wider public. Choosing as he does, to bask in the limelight with stories of heroically ‘saving the day’, he shows no sign of taking even the first vital steps to becoming a safer pilot.
For some on here to blame his instructor or examiner is not fair. Many people present themselves for both flying instruction and indeed for examination for grant of PPL (or NPPL) who are of marginal ability. However, an examiner can only judge what is demonstrated on the day. Neither the instructor nor the examiner have any control over any possible degradation of performance, or their growing propensity for risk taking after the grant of a licence.
Possibly there is an over ‘inclusive’ attitude in some flying schools, demonstrated by a ‘we can teach anyone to fly’ attitude, which can give false expectation to some. A more realistic assessment at an early stage of flight training might well help to minimise later accidents by over ambitious pilots of marginally ability. By contrast, it was refreshing to hear in a Safety training lecture at a very early stage of my commercial helicopter fight training that “helicopters are not for everybody”.
Mr Hagendorn’s woeful tale and his manner on TV remind me of two particular students that I have at one time tried to instruct. They shared distinct similarities; being ‘older’, ‘intelligent’, of a somewhat ‘bumptious’ manner, having a distinct preference for talking rather than listening, and being apparently incapable of accepting any responsibility for their mistakes. Indeed the two in question never, to my recollection, ever felt they had made a mistake. It was always “because of this, that or the other factor” beyond their control.
The fact that they are intelligent sadly does nothing to help these people to learn, and thereby to become safer pilots. Quite the opposite. Their intelligence has allowed them to cruise through life being the ‘instructor’ not the ‘student’, and changing roles in later life is not something that comes easily to them. They will typically spend more time in pre-flight briefings talking rather than listening to the instructor. They will usually be trying to correct the instructor, based on their long-held and invariably erroneous ‘knowledge’ gained from dubious sources such as MS Flight Sim (or in Mr H’s case, Biggles books). Blind faith in these false props rather than the wise words from an expert instructor is a poor substitute for the day to day task of flying safely, and especially so in an emergency.
Both of the students that Mr H reminds me of went on to have serious accidents. Thankfully, like Mr H, the one who did eventually manage to get a PPL survived to tell the tale. Not so the other one.
Lets hope that Mr H takes this opportunity to have a real hard look at himself, to review his attitude to airmanship and his need to listen and learn from both his mistakes and from others who are wiser. This would give him his best chance to become a better pilot before it is too late. As an airline pilot who regularly flies a jet full of passengers in the EDI airspace that Mr H apparently violated, I am appalled to know that my passengers and I are being put at such serious risk by fools like him. The saddest part is that he seems to be completely unaware of the danger he is putting so many people in.
There are none so blind as those who refuse to listen.
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Presumably during the approach and time in controlled airspace he was warned by Scottish and given instructions to leave by the safest and quickest route.
Did he simply ignore same, or did he have difficulty understanding his predicament and the instructions given?
Too many examples of things not adding up for this one to be as straight forward as is made out.
Did he simply ignore same, or did he have difficulty understanding his predicament and the instructions given?
Too many examples of things not adding up for this one to be as straight forward as is made out.
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Unless he was thought he was flying a jet, climbing straight out of the CTR/CTA was never going to be the quickest option - nor the most economical on fuel. Although, it may have been safest to climb as he was routing away from trouble if he then had to cross the Forth at a wider point than the bridges.
Looks like this was one of these flights where an accident was the only likely outcome. I think PilotMike has summed up very well - Poor Mr H - it wasn't his fault that the the machine conked out and what a great job he has done saving the day. I guess he must just be wired differently.
Had he chosen to land with fuel or made a precautionary landing on farmland he would not have endangered so many other people and would perhaps have been of a lesser risk to himself.
I still dn't understand how you can spend 5 hrs getting from Barrow in Furness to Dundee! F**k I can drive there and halfway back in that time! What was he doing - looking for an accident?
Looks like this was one of these flights where an accident was the only likely outcome. I think PilotMike has summed up very well - Poor Mr H - it wasn't his fault that the the machine conked out and what a great job he has done saving the day. I guess he must just be wired differently.
Had he chosen to land with fuel or made a precautionary landing on farmland he would not have endangered so many other people and would perhaps have been of a lesser risk to himself.
I still dn't understand how you can spend 5 hrs getting from Barrow in Furness to Dundee! F**k I can drive there and halfway back in that time! What was he doing - looking for an accident?