CAA Prosecution - A lesson to be learnt
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
bose-x, if the original post has served to help MagpiePedro explain his situation such that it will be a warning to others, then so much the better.
Not the first time you've waded in to rip the ears off someone who has had the honesty to report his less-than-ideal experiences to a wider audience......
Truly professional pilots encourage such candour and honesty.
Not the first time you've waded in to rip the ears off someone who has had the honesty to report his less-than-ideal experiences to a wider audience......
Truly professional pilots encourage such candour and honesty.
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
Not arguing with that at all Beagle. Merely responding to the view that PPRuNe is some sort of confessional where you post your sins and do not expect a comment from others......................... If you only want a response that makes you feel better than perhaps the local church would be a better 'forum' for a confession.
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: Scotland
I'd go with Jonkil on this one, Pedro was not asking foregiveness, nor a pat on the back.
I don't think he deserves quite so much of a kicking as he has had from the Utterly Infallible Sky God Supermen on here.
He got a kicking from CAA. He accepted it like a man. He had the balls to tell us about it in some form of warning, not that Utterly Infallible Sky God Superman needed a warning of course. It must be bloody wonderful knowing that your life has been & is going to be, so perfect, that you will never ever cock anything up, never make any mistake however small for the duration of your life.
If I have made any spelling or grammatical errors, please keep it to yourself because I couldn't give a flying
.
I don't think he deserves quite so much of a kicking as he has had from the Utterly Infallible Sky God Supermen on here.
He got a kicking from CAA. He accepted it like a man. He had the balls to tell us about it in some form of warning, not that Utterly Infallible Sky God Superman needed a warning of course. It must be bloody wonderful knowing that your life has been & is going to be, so perfect, that you will never ever cock anything up, never make any mistake however small for the duration of your life.
If I have made any spelling or grammatical errors, please keep it to yourself because I couldn't give a flying
.
Joined: Sep 2008
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From: Back in Blighty!
Well i think there would be a lot more of this kind of thing if people had the balls to confess to something they had done and forget there pride, im only just about to do my ppl skills test and im sure I will be making mistakes over the next few years/many years. We are not robots!
You never make the same mistake twice!
You never make the same mistake twice!
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 683
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From: UK
Originally Posted by bose-x
Merely responding to the view that PPRuNe is some sort of confessional where you post your sins and do not expect a comment from others.........................
Originally Posted by bose-x
Ah right, now I understand, PPRuNe is just a confessional. It allows those who have done wrong to clear their souls and not have to expect any comment in return. Just a few hail mary's and job done!
MagpiePedro, thank you - publicly this time - on your honesty and self-awareness. Thanks also for posting this in PF rather than the Instructors forum, as this way you get the widest relevant audience.
I also think that your acceptance of blame is far more mature than some posters credit you for, and that your consideration of what your student did (or didn't) take away from the experience is not only valid, but shows a commendable long term view of how such experiences may give best benefit to everyone concerned rather than just the prime suspect. (Which in this case was quite rightly you, as you say.)
If, Magpie, you had ever attempted in this thread to duck your own responsibility as PIC, or minimise it, I'd have some sympathy with the criticisms, but you self-evidently didn't - as can be seen by those who read your posts properly.
Why is this important?
Because honesty like Magpie's must be encouraged, which will not happen if SkyGods leap in to hammer someone who has ALREADY confessed openly to their errors by telling them they were an idiot. They KNOW that already - they confess to others to minimise errors being repeated, as they always will be. Why else would they?
Those who don't confess (because, as a relevant example, they believe that bose will publicly ridicule them) will prevent others learning from their mistakes, and so those others may end up making those mistakes themselves before they can learn. With the obvious real world risks.
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Posts: n/a
I'm still with Bose.
Yep, the OP did post here, but if you look at posts 8 and 12, there is tendency to gripe about the treatment handed to the PPL.
Reality is that this new instructor wasn't prepared and got caught out.
He was unlucky in the sense that his faux pas was pretty much as high profile as it gets and I really sympathise with that, for many of us have got away with things that were lower profile.
However, griping at the treatment of the PPL did sound like a little like transference to me as well and I thought Bose's original comments were fair, if direct.
If this is payback time for Bose, then he does stick his head over the parapet and he's big enough to fight his own corner, but in this instance he has made astute observations.
Yep, the OP did post here, but if you look at posts 8 and 12, there is tendency to gripe about the treatment handed to the PPL.
Reality is that this new instructor wasn't prepared and got caught out.
He was unlucky in the sense that his faux pas was pretty much as high profile as it gets and I really sympathise with that, for many of us have got away with things that were lower profile.
However, griping at the treatment of the PPL did sound like a little like transference to me as well and I thought Bose's original comments were fair, if direct.
If this is payback time for Bose, then he does stick his head over the parapet and he's big enough to fight his own corner, but in this instance he has made astute observations.
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: UK
Originally Posted by Final 3 Greens
Reality is that this new instructor wasn't prepared and got caught out.
His later point is that HE has had the lesson branded into him - but has his student? A perfectly relevant question to ask, I'd have thought we should all agree.
Joined: May 2001
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From: UK
It takes ba**s for many people to admit their mistakes. It may be a bit easier when the post is anonymous, be it on here or CHIRP.
So he made a mistake. In my earlier post I was expressing my opinion on how we as a society assess the seriousness of mistakes. I gave the example of the guy running into the back of a car due to inattention, contrasted with the same accident caused by the driver being on his mobile or even drunk. Most of us would happily slate the second driver in the way some are suggesting Bose is doing, but would be far more forgiving in the first instance.
The poster has had the courage to admit his mistake. The general lesson that if there is any chance the other pilot has derogated responsibility to us we had better measure up to that responsibility is a good lesson and one terribly easy to overlook in many circumstances.
I think in this case Bose is suggesting that an instructor has less excuse than most for making this mistake. I think Bose is suggesting that an instructor who is being paid for his services should reasonably be expected to ensure the flight does not infringe CAS. A mistake it is, but if Bose’s assessment is correct, however harsh, I think he is simply making the point that it was a reasonably serious mistake and one which was difficult to excuse – a view which doubtless the Court also took.
This thread, like any other, is a debate about the issues. I don’t think it is a matter of slating this pilot, nor I would hope is it about any of us being holier than thou, but there would seem to be some merit in discussing how you can end up being totally responsible for the flight when you thought it was down to the other guy and when this happens whether the precursor were mistakes that were serious enough to be on a scale with the driver on his mobile, or were due to momentary inattention, or somewhere in between.
In short lets not polarise the debate into another thread in which we slate each other but have a more interesting discussion about how the command process works in a single pilot aircraft where there are two pilots in the front and if you wish an assessment of whether the mistakes made by this instructor were more or less excusable.
So he made a mistake. In my earlier post I was expressing my opinion on how we as a society assess the seriousness of mistakes. I gave the example of the guy running into the back of a car due to inattention, contrasted with the same accident caused by the driver being on his mobile or even drunk. Most of us would happily slate the second driver in the way some are suggesting Bose is doing, but would be far more forgiving in the first instance.
The poster has had the courage to admit his mistake. The general lesson that if there is any chance the other pilot has derogated responsibility to us we had better measure up to that responsibility is a good lesson and one terribly easy to overlook in many circumstances.
I think in this case Bose is suggesting that an instructor has less excuse than most for making this mistake. I think Bose is suggesting that an instructor who is being paid for his services should reasonably be expected to ensure the flight does not infringe CAS. A mistake it is, but if Bose’s assessment is correct, however harsh, I think he is simply making the point that it was a reasonably serious mistake and one which was difficult to excuse – a view which doubtless the Court also took.
This thread, like any other, is a debate about the issues. I don’t think it is a matter of slating this pilot, nor I would hope is it about any of us being holier than thou, but there would seem to be some merit in discussing how you can end up being totally responsible for the flight when you thought it was down to the other guy and when this happens whether the precursor were mistakes that were serious enough to be on a scale with the driver on his mobile, or were due to momentary inattention, or somewhere in between.
In short lets not polarise the debate into another thread in which we slate each other but have a more interesting discussion about how the command process works in a single pilot aircraft where there are two pilots in the front and if you wish an assessment of whether the mistakes made by this instructor were more or less excusable.
Joined: Feb 2009
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From: England
MP, you should have told the CAA that you were not P1 and quoted the PPrune posts last year were quite a lot of the self appointed experts on here were adamant that if you were engaged on a check ride as an instructor with a qualified pilot you could not be P1, funny how none of them have picked up on this!
Also not mentioned is that you could have brought down a public transport flight with disasterous consequences, I wonder how the 'experts' would have viewed your incursion then?
Your conviction will shew on a CRC check, so I would be very suprised if any major airline would employ you and I speak as a retired ex management pilot. If you were involved in an incident with an airline and your prosecution came to light it would not look very good for that company would it?
The commader is decided before flight but the role of commander needs to be understood at a much earlier stage as this incident proves.
Also not mentioned is that you could have brought down a public transport flight with disasterous consequences, I wonder how the 'experts' would have viewed your incursion then?
Your conviction will shew on a CRC check, so I would be very suprised if any major airline would employ you and I speak as a retired ex management pilot. If you were involved in an incident with an airline and your prosecution came to light it would not look very good for that company would it?
The commader is decided before flight but the role of commander needs to be understood at a much earlier stage as this incident proves.
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: Hotel this week, hotel next week, home whenever...
My 2 Cents....
This doesn't sit with me well - but Bose has it here.
Yep - MP screwed up and yes, he knows it. But he also has commented on the fact that he feels the CAA should come down his 'student'. Nope....sorry, but that is MP's responsibility.
As has been pointed out many times this was, I believe, single crew - there is no P2 function and even if there was it would be entirely at the behest of the aircraft commander (MP) or 'company' (the school) to insist on whatever corrective action (punishment) they felt necessary.
As commander, MP is responsible for the safe and propper conduct of the flight and from a commercial point of view he has a responsibility to his customer (the other pilot) to ensure that learning points are, well, exactly that. Sad fact, but the customer has paid to be 'watched' to ensure he could conduct a flight safely. MP failed in this respect.
PPP,PPP
Sad, yes.
Ballsy to admit the original error, yes.
Naive to expect anyone to share the blame? very much so!
Yep - MP screwed up and yes, he knows it. But he also has commented on the fact that he feels the CAA should come down his 'student'. Nope....sorry, but that is MP's responsibility.
As has been pointed out many times this was, I believe, single crew - there is no P2 function and even if there was it would be entirely at the behest of the aircraft commander (MP) or 'company' (the school) to insist on whatever corrective action (punishment) they felt necessary.
As commander, MP is responsible for the safe and propper conduct of the flight and from a commercial point of view he has a responsibility to his customer (the other pilot) to ensure that learning points are, well, exactly that. Sad fact, but the customer has paid to be 'watched' to ensure he could conduct a flight safely. MP failed in this respect.
PPP,PPP
Sad, yes.
Ballsy to admit the original error, yes.
Naive to expect anyone to share the blame? very much so!
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,598
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From: Amsterdam
MP, you should have told the CAA that you were not P1 and quoted the PPRuNe posts last year were quite a lot of the self appointed experts on here were adamant that if you were engaged on a check ride as an instructor with a qualified pilot you could not be P1, funny how none of them have picked up on this!
In general, on a club mandated club check with a pilot who is otherwise legally current (including the 90-day rule), both the "student" and the "instructor" could legally claim P1, but not simultaneously. So you've got to decide before the flight who is (and gets to log) PIC/P1. At least, that's what I remember from the discussion here a while ago.
In this particular case, the decision seems to have been preempted by club rules. Fair enough. Case closed.
"Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,414
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From: Europe
On the path of life we all have lessons to learn.
If we are lucky we get away with a close shave.
In this case you bought the ticket. Worse things happen; bag the experience and move on, ignore the detractors.
If we are lucky we get away with a close shave.
In this case you bought the ticket. Worse things happen; bag the experience and move on, ignore the detractors.
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: The 'Bat Cave' @ HLP in the Big Durian Indo
MagpiePedro , everyone has a 'brain in neutral' moment when flying , some get killed , some get a scare , some get fined and some get away scott free and keep it to themselves.
There will always be 'Sky Gods' who have never done wrong (never admit to it) who will put the boot in.
Keep critcising yourself and sharing , that's how we all learn.
I'll bet you will never be a sit back and relax PIC again , good lesson learned.
There will always be 'Sky Gods' who have never done wrong (never admit to it) who will put the boot in.
Keep critcising yourself and sharing , that's how we all learn.
I'll bet you will never be a sit back and relax PIC again , good lesson learned.
Joined: May 2001
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Not wanting to bring the thread into a wannbies type bitch fest.
I noticed that the poster said they were integrated trained.
How much experience did you have prior to this event in planning and executing your own flights outside the training environment of your course?.
Its not intended as a derogatory remark I know that you guys are trained from the outset with RHS something sexy in mind. I presume every flight you do is in the course syllabus with no latitude for spur of the moment. I also presume as well every flight will have been checked by an instructor and signed off as you don't get a license until you have finished the whole lot.
Would it be fair to say that this is one of the few flights you have been PIC on that nobody has doubled checked what you have planned, exam flights excluded.
I noticed that the poster said they were integrated trained.
How much experience did you have prior to this event in planning and executing your own flights outside the training environment of your course?.
Its not intended as a derogatory remark I know that you guys are trained from the outset with RHS something sexy in mind. I presume every flight you do is in the course syllabus with no latitude for spur of the moment. I also presume as well every flight will have been checked by an instructor and signed off as you don't get a license until you have finished the whole lot.
Would it be fair to say that this is one of the few flights you have been PIC on that nobody has doubled checked what you have planned, exam flights excluded.
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
Maggie did well to post that. What an experience!
Obviously one lesson to be learnt is that the impression one might get of a pilot's experience (from conversation) might be bull!!!!!, and in this GA business which is full of Walter Mitty characters, a lot of what one hears is indeed just that. Quite a bit of it not a million miles away from these forums, either. I used to rent out my TB20 and was astonished at some of the types I came across then, and more since, and oddly enough the worst happened to be certain instructors.
The other lesson is that one has to avoid the "experienced pilot" syndrome. In GA, single pilot, there will always be some ambiguity as regards who is really PIC - even if legally the situation may be clear. I've got vastly more touring experience that almost any PPL instructor I have ever met and I am sure I could go up for some check or renewal flight with any local instructor and sail straight into CAS while the instructor would be pretty relaxed, and if this was in a G-reg then he would be PIC by default and would get busted for it.
I am N-reg and under FAA rules the "student" is PIC (in US airspace on the privileges of the FAA Student Pilot Certificate) and in general terms this remains the case in UK airspace too, so the scenario is more ambiguous there because in most N-reg flying instruction done outside the USA the "student" is actually legally capable of being PIC.
Reading many accident reports, sometimes between the lines (the AAIB has to be careful what they write) it is obvious that a lot of bad decisions are made in this way. I have never had a scary flight myself but my only spectacularly bad weather decision to date (which resulted in having to fly an ILS into Biggin through the bottom part of a very dark CB) was made when I was flying as a PU/T with a supposedly highly experienced instructor. One well publicised recent 2x fatal in the USA had both pilots with tens of thousands of hours between them and they still did a CFIT - equipment failure excepted, it is likely that each assumed the other knew what they were doing.
Finally, I am suprised the CAA prosecuted in this case. Maybe they wanted to make an example of it? Who knows. They are a bunch of ex policemen and thus sometimes work in mysterious ways. Normally, if you have the "correct attitude" (grovel like hell at the interview) you get away with a CAS bust. They tend to prosecute high-media-profile TRA busts, and most of all they love prosecuting alleged illegal public transport (usually reported to them by a nearby AOC holder
).
Next time, fly with a GPS The student doesn't need to see it, of course. I would never fly anywhere without a GPS - I prefer to sleep at night and life is too short.
Obviously one lesson to be learnt is that the impression one might get of a pilot's experience (from conversation) might be bull!!!!!, and in this GA business which is full of Walter Mitty characters, a lot of what one hears is indeed just that. Quite a bit of it not a million miles away from these forums, either. I used to rent out my TB20 and was astonished at some of the types I came across then, and more since, and oddly enough the worst happened to be certain instructors.
The other lesson is that one has to avoid the "experienced pilot" syndrome. In GA, single pilot, there will always be some ambiguity as regards who is really PIC - even if legally the situation may be clear. I've got vastly more touring experience that almost any PPL instructor I have ever met and I am sure I could go up for some check or renewal flight with any local instructor and sail straight into CAS while the instructor would be pretty relaxed, and if this was in a G-reg then he would be PIC by default and would get busted for it.
I am N-reg and under FAA rules the "student" is PIC (in US airspace on the privileges of the FAA Student Pilot Certificate) and in general terms this remains the case in UK airspace too, so the scenario is more ambiguous there because in most N-reg flying instruction done outside the USA the "student" is actually legally capable of being PIC.
Reading many accident reports, sometimes between the lines (the AAIB has to be careful what they write) it is obvious that a lot of bad decisions are made in this way. I have never had a scary flight myself but my only spectacularly bad weather decision to date (which resulted in having to fly an ILS into Biggin through the bottom part of a very dark CB) was made when I was flying as a PU/T with a supposedly highly experienced instructor. One well publicised recent 2x fatal in the USA had both pilots with tens of thousands of hours between them and they still did a CFIT - equipment failure excepted, it is likely that each assumed the other knew what they were doing.
Finally, I am suprised the CAA prosecuted in this case. Maybe they wanted to make an example of it? Who knows. They are a bunch of ex policemen and thus sometimes work in mysterious ways. Normally, if you have the "correct attitude" (grovel like hell at the interview) you get away with a CAS bust. They tend to prosecute high-media-profile TRA busts, and most of all they love prosecuting alleged illegal public transport (usually reported to them by a nearby AOC holder
).Next time, fly with a GPS
The student doesn't need to see it, of course. I would never fly anywhere without a GPS - I prefer to sleep at night and life is too short.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: lancs.UK
Firstly, I'll state I'm NOT a pilot, Sim-er (well, crashing RC heli's doesn't count? 
) nor am I a walt.
Were I in a position to be under instruction....even for a "check-ride"....I would like to think that my "instructor" started from the absolute basics.
As Duchess Driver referenced, PPP PPP.
I'd like to think my planning, preparation (including a PROPER walk-round) and ensuing performance were ALL included in the appraisal for which I was paying.
Some years back, I was Hon Boatswain at a local sailing-club. I maintained inboard and outboard fast and slow rescue-boats which all members did a duty-rota maintaining.
ALL persons "driving" had recurring assessments, from launching the rowing-dinghy, to padlocking the Rescue-Boat back on it's moorings.
I always picked up some pearl of wisdom from these training exercises and would have felt cheated, if the instructor/examiner had taken a passive role and just signed my log.
Re, the" inexplicable" motor-accident scenario......you would be prosecuted for DRIVING WITHOUT DUE CARE AND ATTENTION. in all probability.
Hitting another vehicle is always due to a mistake. if the grim reaper doesn't punish you, the Law or insurance company will.
Magpie- hope you are now more assertive!
) nor am I a walt.Were I in a position to be under instruction....even for a "check-ride"....I would like to think that my "instructor" started from the absolute basics.
As Duchess Driver referenced, PPP PPP.
I'd like to think my planning, preparation (including a PROPER walk-round) and ensuing performance were ALL included in the appraisal for which I was paying.
Some years back, I was Hon Boatswain at a local sailing-club. I maintained inboard and outboard fast and slow rescue-boats which all members did a duty-rota maintaining.
ALL persons "driving" had recurring assessments, from launching the rowing-dinghy, to padlocking the Rescue-Boat back on it's moorings.
I always picked up some pearl of wisdom from these training exercises and would have felt cheated, if the instructor/examiner had taken a passive role and just signed my log.
Re, the" inexplicable" motor-accident scenario......you would be prosecuted for DRIVING WITHOUT DUE CARE AND ATTENTION. in all probability.
Hitting another vehicle is always due to a mistake. if the grim reaper doesn't punish you, the Law or insurance company will.
Magpie- hope you are now more assertive!