CAA Prosecution - A lesson to be learnt
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2009
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From: High Wycombe
Thanks for all the posts my thread received. To summarise;
1. I admitted the incident was my fault from the outset and did not once try to shift the blame. I cocked up.
2. I paid the price, literally, and will forever have to live with my mistake.
3. Every flight I have conducted since this incident has been to the highest standard I am capable of.
4. I have not spoken to Mr A since the incident.
5. I fear for Mr A as I dont think he has learnt anything from this experience. That does not mean I am annoyed he was not punished as I was.
Those are the facts. Those who have posted comments thinking I have somhow tried to shirk my responsibility are just wrong. Those who have seen through this have hopefully learnt from my mistake.
Thanks to all
MP
1. I admitted the incident was my fault from the outset and did not once try to shift the blame. I cocked up.
2. I paid the price, literally, and will forever have to live with my mistake.
3. Every flight I have conducted since this incident has been to the highest standard I am capable of.
4. I have not spoken to Mr A since the incident.
5. I fear for Mr A as I dont think he has learnt anything from this experience. That does not mean I am annoyed he was not punished as I was.
Those are the facts. Those who have posted comments thinking I have somhow tried to shirk my responsibility are just wrong. Those who have seen through this have hopefully learnt from my mistake.
Thanks to all
MP
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
I fear for Mr A as I dont think he has learnt anything from this experience
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,546
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From: Oxford, UK
Does anyone out there remember a flight a few years ago that ended in the drink off of Blackpool? Where an "experienced pilot" was given too much responsibility by a flying school, to deliver an aircraft to a location in the southwest, and returning near darkness in weather that got worse and worse as they approached Blackpool, attempted a couple of approaches, being too low on fuel to go to an alternate with better weather.......
Would that case be relevant to this one in any way?
Would that case be relevant to this one in any way?
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: Maders UK
Mucho Respecto Magpie Pedro
MP,
Good on you for talking about the situation you found yourself in and the punishment the CAA gave you. I think it demonstrates laudable self criticism and am not sure many posters in this forum would do the same given the circumstances.
There are many "perfect pilots" on this forum whose egos exist in a rareified reality. Firstly they would never ever get into the situation you got into and that would enable them to be highly critical of your judgement
etc... . Furthermore they would go on to accuse you of using the thread as a confessional - 
.
Dear dear...
Certain expressions come to mind but the politest one contains the words "pride" and "fall"...
So, MP; all the best with progressing your professional flying career, I'm pretty certain you won't let a navigational ballsup of this scale happen to you again, and that when you are captain of the heavy that has to go around because of an infringer you will view the situation more forgivingly.
None of us are perfect, (not even me!)
SB
Good on you for talking about the situation you found yourself in and the punishment the CAA gave you. I think it demonstrates laudable self criticism and am not sure many posters in this forum would do the same given the circumstances.
There are many "perfect pilots" on this forum whose egos exist in a rareified reality. Firstly they would never ever get into the situation you got into and that would enable them to be highly critical of your judgement
etc... . Furthermore they would go on to accuse you of using the thread as a confessional - . Dear dear...
Certain expressions come to mind but the politest one contains the words "pride" and "fall"...
So, MP; all the best with progressing your professional flying career, I'm pretty certain you won't let a navigational ballsup of this scale happen to you again, and that when you are captain of the heavy that has to go around because of an infringer you will view the situation more forgivingly.
None of us are perfect, (not even me!)
SB
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 31
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From: somewhere
MP wrote:
Truthfully, I suspect it will.
And truthfully, given the circumstances:
I suspect it should, too. The professional flying job market is very much in the favour of the employer at the moment; we can afford to be very choosy.
My best advice is, for the moment, to keep as quiet as possible about it and hope no-one asks (your posting here is probably an even bigger error as many people, myself included, now know far more about your misdemeanour than would otherwise have been the case)... If the question arises, you will need to be truthful.
If you get part of the way through a recruitment process, and it hasn't come up, then you should be ready to pick your time to mention it. Otherwise you will live in permanent fear of being 'found out' and binned.
I am puzzled by one thing, though. You said
...and I fail to see what 'difficulty' there was with you following your progress on a chart and intervening when things started to go wrong...
My last major concern is that in a year or two when the airline indusrty will hopefully be picking up, will this prosecution effectively halt my chances of getting a job with an airline?
And truthfully, given the circumstances:
I assumed nothing could go wrong
My best advice is, for the moment, to keep as quiet as possible about it and hope no-one asks (your posting here is probably an even bigger error as many people, myself included, now know far more about your misdemeanour than would otherwise have been the case)... If the question arises, you will need to be truthful.
If you get part of the way through a recruitment process, and it hasn't come up, then you should be ready to pick your time to mention it. Otherwise you will live in permanent fear of being 'found out' and binned.
I am puzzled by one thing, though. You said
It was a difficult position to be in
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: South East
MP
I doubt it will affect your chances for an Airline job. Firstly in a couple of major airline application forms it has a question about accidents. It has nothing about prosecutions. You can therefore fill the form honestly. If it does come up then be as honest in the interview as you have been on here. Most interviewers (trust me I know) will use what you say to give a big picture of yourself, and if your good enough you will pass.
The biggest question this raises is that should the 2 yearly flight be a little bit more formalised?
Good luck and come back to Waltham for a beer.
regards
Wide
I doubt it will affect your chances for an Airline job. Firstly in a couple of major airline application forms it has a question about accidents. It has nothing about prosecutions. You can therefore fill the form honestly. If it does come up then be as honest in the interview as you have been on here. Most interviewers (trust me I know) will use what you say to give a big picture of yourself, and if your good enough you will pass.
The biggest question this raises is that should the 2 yearly flight be a little bit more formalised?
Good luck and come back to Waltham for a beer.
regards
Wide
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 511
Likes: 1
From: Great Southern Land
MagpiePedro
Well my two bobs worth is don't let this get you down. Look at what took place, yes there was a misstake on your behalf but nobody was hurt, the best thing you can do is to learn from what happened and move on.
After 40 years of flying that is what I do, I still beat myself around the head a little occasionaly but you must learn and move on!
Well my two bobs worth is don't let this get you down. Look at what took place, yes there was a misstake on your behalf but nobody was hurt, the best thing you can do is to learn from what happened and move on.
After 40 years of flying that is what I do, I still beat myself around the head a little occasionaly but you must learn and move on!
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,118
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The two yearly flight review should be removed, not more formalised.
The CAA review of flight safety following introduction of the JAA BFR in 1990 together with all the other stuff ( 90 day rules, annual MEP tests etc) showed absolutely no safety benefit whatsoever. This is before all the new crap which EASA are going to chuck at us.
This stuff is all just jobs and money for the boys and bureaucrats who invent it . Those who need a "review" are free to have one whenever they wish. We all survived just fine for decades before these requirements were introduced with absolutely no more fatalities or accidents.
OK ...Aim...fire....
The CAA review of flight safety following introduction of the JAA BFR in 1990 together with all the other stuff ( 90 day rules, annual MEP tests etc) showed absolutely no safety benefit whatsoever. This is before all the new crap which EASA are going to chuck at us.
This stuff is all just jobs and money for the boys and bureaucrats who invent it . Those who need a "review" are free to have one whenever they wish. We all survived just fine for decades before these requirements were introduced with absolutely no more fatalities or accidents.
OK ...Aim...fire....
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,729
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From: 75N 16E
Is it a "criminal offence" to bust airspace? If so then it will go on your record...If not, then don't tell anyone 
The best bit about this post is that it shows how serious flying can be. There are many people with the nonchalant attitude "you shouldn't throw stones, it may happen to you". Well it shouldn't happen to you.....That is what being a licensed pilot is all about.
I am still of the view that if this does happen to "you" then "you" should have your licence removed until the authorities are satisfied it is NOT going to happen to you again, unless there are mitigating factors in your favour (system problems, bad vis, illness, that sort of thing), and your actions on realising you are in airspace (did you call Heathrow, did you turn OFF the mode C to "hide" etc....)...
Some things you can't do anything about - like an engine failure, other things, like busting airspace are completely within the pilots control most of the time.
I think there should be a FORMAL BFR - like the FAA one, whereby after 2 years you cannot fly until you have done a BFR with an instructor. However if you go over the 2 years, no problem, you just can't fly until you have done the BFR. That would mean no time contraints and no panic to meet a certain date.
Typical BFR should be a minimum of 1 hr ground school and 1 hr flight, focusing on whatever the "student" has problems with, and once done the instructor signs the bit of paper in the licence. It should not be like a mini test, but a training session, and can include Nav but not only traditional DR nav, but allow use of any nav systems in the aeroplane.
The best bit about this post is that it shows how serious flying can be. There are many people with the nonchalant attitude "you shouldn't throw stones, it may happen to you". Well it shouldn't happen to you.....That is what being a licensed pilot is all about.
I am still of the view that if this does happen to "you" then "you" should have your licence removed until the authorities are satisfied it is NOT going to happen to you again, unless there are mitigating factors in your favour (system problems, bad vis, illness, that sort of thing), and your actions on realising you are in airspace (did you call Heathrow, did you turn OFF the mode C to "hide" etc....)...
Some things you can't do anything about - like an engine failure, other things, like busting airspace are completely within the pilots control most of the time.
I think there should be a FORMAL BFR - like the FAA one, whereby after 2 years you cannot fly until you have done a BFR with an instructor. However if you go over the 2 years, no problem, you just can't fly until you have done the BFR. That would mean no time contraints and no panic to meet a certain date.
Typical BFR should be a minimum of 1 hr ground school and 1 hr flight, focusing on whatever the "student" has problems with, and once done the instructor signs the bit of paper in the licence. It should not be like a mini test, but a training session, and can include Nav but not only traditional DR nav, but allow use of any nav systems in the aeroplane.
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
Yes, flying is a serious business. It's very easy to mess up something and get into trouble.
I think most pilots realise this and I also think that is a big reason why so many give up. There is the constant worry of ending up in deep s**t, which you just don't have in other walks of life e.g. driving (except, in driving, speed cameras but one can install warning devices for those).
I think most pilots realise this and I also think that is a big reason why so many give up. There is the constant worry of ending up in deep s**t, which you just don't have in other walks of life e.g. driving (except, in driving, speed cameras but one can install warning devices for those).
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 247
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From: London
We all survived just fine for decades before these requirements were introduced with absolutely no more fatalities or accidents.
I agree with you up to a point. A responsible pilot will ensure that he flies safely and thoroughly briefs him or herself before flying, especially if there has been a lapse of some months. One doesn't loose handling skills that quickly. It's more a case of remembering all the drills.
On the other hand, flying with an instructor from time to time is not a bad idea (even if they also get lost sometimes - sorry maggie
).
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 343
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From: On a roll...
Magpie Pedro - was at WW that morning of your bust & was listening in to the phone/radio calls. If I remember rightly, you were one of two aircraft that LHR thought had infringed simultaneously ....
Interesting to hear the follow-up.
Can only comment as another PPL, but as someone who's done some mentoring, even when sitting right-seat & most definitely not PIC, I do my own pre-flight planning. Even for a local bimble.
I have a huge respect for instructors, since you have to be ready for the unexpected from the moment you approach the aircraft to the minute you sign in the paperwork. As a professional, it's the realising of the mistakes that defines what you do. Those who don't see it as a mistake are those that don't deserve the title. Some of the lessons can be hard.
Heathrow Director - who is no doubt the most pertinent person to speak on here - has already suggested this, but I would reiterate that Google Earth is a fantastic resource for pre-flight planning & I use it for every trip. When operating around a control zone like LHR's, it's a life-saver. A GPS is great, but there's nothing like having a mental image in your own head of what you should see when....especially in ratty conditions when you want to keep "head-up". I even print out 3D images of the view at the height I should be at given waypoints.
I'm currently looking at running a training course on GE for pilots with another PPL - if anyone's interested, let me know. Situational awareness is a very different thing to knowing how to operate the aircraft.
Hope the flying bug is still with you & the experience has let you grow rather than make you hang up the headset.
Flying is a privilege.
BFA
Interesting to hear the follow-up.
Can only comment as another PPL, but as someone who's done some mentoring, even when sitting right-seat & most definitely not PIC, I do my own pre-flight planning. Even for a local bimble.
I have a huge respect for instructors, since you have to be ready for the unexpected from the moment you approach the aircraft to the minute you sign in the paperwork. As a professional, it's the realising of the mistakes that defines what you do. Those who don't see it as a mistake are those that don't deserve the title. Some of the lessons can be hard.
Heathrow Director - who is no doubt the most pertinent person to speak on here - has already suggested this, but I would reiterate that Google Earth is a fantastic resource for pre-flight planning & I use it for every trip. When operating around a control zone like LHR's, it's a life-saver. A GPS is great, but there's nothing like having a mental image in your own head of what you should see when....especially in ratty conditions when you want to keep "head-up". I even print out 3D images of the view at the height I should be at given waypoints.
I'm currently looking at running a training course on GE for pilots with another PPL - if anyone's interested, let me know. Situational awareness is a very different thing to knowing how to operate the aircraft.
Hope the flying bug is still with you & the experience has let you grow rather than make you hang up the headset.
Flying is a privilege.
BFA
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Posts: n/a
Magpie Pedro - was at WW that morning of your bust & was listening in to the phone/radio calls. If I remember rightly, you were one of two aircraft that LHR thought had infringed simultaneously ....
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,064
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From: Hants, UK
Full marks to MP for the honesty on the circumstances of this infringement. Must just ask: was it in a certain club aircraft(C172S G-O..G)? That has a panel-mounted GPS, albeit with a very small map.
Also a bit surprised that your 'instructor checkout' at your flying club did not apparently give you enough familiarity with the local area to recognise important features before the heathrow tower got your attention!
I hear that White Waltham traffic may well figure on the 'evidence' paperwork at the next 'infringement prosecution' brought by the CAA following someone else's antics in the Heathrow Zone yesterday
Also a bit surprised that your 'instructor checkout' at your flying club did not apparently give you enough familiarity with the local area to recognise important features before the heathrow tower got your attention!
I hear that White Waltham traffic may well figure on the 'evidence' paperwork at the next 'infringement prosecution' brought by the CAA following someone else's antics in the Heathrow Zone yesterday
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: On a roll...
W-F
Stand corrected. Know at the time they were calls coming in about two aircraft, one that was well inside the zone & one that had just clipped it. Both ended up sat on the grass outside the WW clubhouse. Both from the same operator.
Eyeinthe sky
Yes - that aircraft you mentioned was one of the two.
WLAC instructors themselves can have a fairly laid-back approach to things at times, but they are super-scrupulous about the arrival procedures & circuit discipline at WW, which appears well justified.
Extend downwind on certain runways at WW & you are in the Heathrow zone.
BFA
Stand corrected. Know at the time they were calls coming in about two aircraft, one that was well inside the zone & one that had just clipped it. Both ended up sat on the grass outside the WW clubhouse. Both from the same operator.
Eyeinthe sky
Yes - that aircraft you mentioned was one of the two.
WLAC instructors themselves can have a fairly laid-back approach to things at times, but they are super-scrupulous about the arrival procedures & circuit discipline at WW, which appears well justified.
Extend downwind on certain runways at WW & you are in the Heathrow zone.
BFA
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
Is the google earth airspace data current?
Last I heard, it was derived from the U.S. military aviation database (the name escapes me right now) which was removed from public access in the summer of 2006.
Last I heard, it was derived from the U.S. military aviation database (the name escapes me right now) which was removed from public access in the summer of 2006.
Guest
Posts: n/a
bfa,
From an ATC perspective I was rather intimately involved with MP's infringement from start to finish, I certainly don't recall a second one taking place at the same time. If one did it mustn't have been of any great significance or I'm sure I'd remember.
Stand corrected. Know at the time they were calls coming in about two aircraft, one that was well inside the zone & one that had just clipped it. Both ended up sat on the grass outside the WW clubhouse. Both from the same operator.
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: On a roll...
The airspace kmz's I've seen have only been for the US & very limited. Not sure if anyone's created any for elsewhere in the world...
They would have to be regularly & scrupulously updated to be of any practical use of course. You could use 'SketchUp' to produce the 3D polygons quite easily I would imagine though.
My suggestion however is actually to place the route ('Path' in Google-speak) on & fly it at the appropriate levels you intend to fly at & then save it as a 'Tour'....with no other information. Terrain exaggeration you set to something suitable for the area. This simulates more closely what you're going to experience from the cockpit....there are no airspace boundaries marked in the sky after all...
It is the reading of the terrain & highlighting of prominent features from the view you're going to have where I find it really useful. Not everyone has a feel for topography & I'm not sure it is adequately emphasised in the PPL syllabus. We spend so much time learning all the various nav techniques & flying time is so expensive, we seem to forget this fundamental element of navigating somewhere along the line...
Unfortunately instructors probably don't always have the time to run through an entire journey like this on GE with their students, but it's amazing how useful it can be to ask "so, what do see that sings out to you at this point in the journey" for instance.
There is always something, even on the dullest routes, whether it be subtle topography changes or a far mast, minor water feature, confluence of linear features. It may not confirm a locationas such, but it can add to your confidence or otherwise of your general position.
In poor viz, that 3D "mental image" of what the route should look like can be invaluable. It's the next step beyond reading "ground-to-map" if you like (the ground never lies, but the map can...). If you think about it, it's what you do in your local area....you may well be navigating between some pretty minor features...roundabouts, ponds, individual churches. These aren't marked on the map, even on the airfield plates, but they are marked on your brain.
The GPS & the map itself become a back-up to keeping Mk1 eyeball outside & looking for stuff :-) The GPS is a wonderful get-home, but some have delays of several seconds in updating position & you should know where you are to start with, right?!?
I really wonder how many PPL's follow the military rule of thumb of roughly 3 hours prep for 1 hour's flying & how many of these incidents start on the ground?? The attitude of certain clubs to PPL mentoring (even instructor mentoring if judging by this story...) has got to be questioned. Don't the people running some of these organisations remember what if felt like to plan your very first solo navs after your PPL? Bloody frightening & lonely experience for many people that's for sure.
Also find it surprising how much emphasis put on the 1:500K map in the UK. Unless you're flying a 250kt hot-ship, the 1:250K is perfectly usable for most GA speeds. Ok, you might need two for a very long nav, but the extra information (runway layouts, topo, small masts, feature details...including exact airspace boundary info) has got to be worth the extra paper. Any comments?
In areas with few features, eg. South Africa, it's the only map they use. Wonder if using the 1:250K around London would avoid some of these kinds of incidents??
BFA
They would have to be regularly & scrupulously updated to be of any practical use of course. You could use 'SketchUp' to produce the 3D polygons quite easily I would imagine though.
My suggestion however is actually to place the route ('Path' in Google-speak) on & fly it at the appropriate levels you intend to fly at & then save it as a 'Tour'....with no other information. Terrain exaggeration you set to something suitable for the area. This simulates more closely what you're going to experience from the cockpit....there are no airspace boundaries marked in the sky after all...
It is the reading of the terrain & highlighting of prominent features from the view you're going to have where I find it really useful. Not everyone has a feel for topography & I'm not sure it is adequately emphasised in the PPL syllabus. We spend so much time learning all the various nav techniques & flying time is so expensive, we seem to forget this fundamental element of navigating somewhere along the line...
Unfortunately instructors probably don't always have the time to run through an entire journey like this on GE with their students, but it's amazing how useful it can be to ask "so, what do see that sings out to you at this point in the journey" for instance.
There is always something, even on the dullest routes, whether it be subtle topography changes or a far mast, minor water feature, confluence of linear features. It may not confirm a locationas such, but it can add to your confidence or otherwise of your general position.
In poor viz, that 3D "mental image" of what the route should look like can be invaluable. It's the next step beyond reading "ground-to-map" if you like (the ground never lies, but the map can...). If you think about it, it's what you do in your local area....you may well be navigating between some pretty minor features...roundabouts, ponds, individual churches. These aren't marked on the map, even on the airfield plates, but they are marked on your brain.
The GPS & the map itself become a back-up to keeping Mk1 eyeball outside & looking for stuff :-) The GPS is a wonderful get-home, but some have delays of several seconds in updating position & you should know where you are to start with, right?!?
I really wonder how many PPL's follow the military rule of thumb of roughly 3 hours prep for 1 hour's flying & how many of these incidents start on the ground?? The attitude of certain clubs to PPL mentoring (even instructor mentoring if judging by this story...) has got to be questioned. Don't the people running some of these organisations remember what if felt like to plan your very first solo navs after your PPL? Bloody frightening & lonely experience for many people that's for sure.
Also find it surprising how much emphasis put on the 1:500K map in the UK. Unless you're flying a 250kt hot-ship, the 1:250K is perfectly usable for most GA speeds. Ok, you might need two for a very long nav, but the extra information (runway layouts, topo, small masts, feature details...including exact airspace boundary info) has got to be worth the extra paper. Any comments?
In areas with few features, eg. South Africa, it's the only map they use. Wonder if using the 1:250K around London would avoid some of these kinds of incidents??
BFA