CAA Prosecution - A lesson to be learnt
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My view is that it is a waste of time fining someone for something like this.
What would probably happen in FAA land is that you'd be mandated to retake the FI or CPL flight test, or a portion of it, with a FAA insepector. I reckon they should do this in the UK too. Let you keep the £500 but then ensure you "lose" your ticket until to take the remedial test to a satisfactory standard.
What would probably happen in FAA land is that you'd be mandated to retake the FI or CPL flight test, or a portion of it, with a FAA insepector. I reckon they should do this in the UK too. Let you keep the £500 but then ensure you "lose" your ticket until to take the remedial test to a satisfactory standard.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: world
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I had a similar thing (not looking at Heathrow tower I Might add) when a guy came for a check ride to Join the club. It was on a PA28 archer and he showed me pictures of his own PA28 arrow that he owns at his home town. Obviously I assumed (and there is the key word) he would be ok. Instantly I could see his checks were poor and his spatial awareness and knowledge of rules was ****e. I let him carry on whilst monitoring the situation and he was apauling. I took it off him on three of the four landings and suggested he do some time with the CFI. But because he oozed with confidence and owned an aircraft of same type (more complex actually) I initially took a relaxed view to the whole thing. The truth is Assume makes an ass out of you and me! those who say they are great are usually crap those who keep quiet usually fly a red arrow :-)
I once told a horse riding instructor I was an expert rider and it took off with me and bucked me off so I too have been the big mouth all be it with a sore arse! (her arse was nice by the way hence the attempt to sound like a pro)
Magpie- could you see the whites of their eyes?
I once told a horse riding instructor I was an expert rider and it took off with me and bucked me off so I too have been the big mouth all be it with a sore arse! (her arse was nice by the way hence the attempt to sound like a pro)
Magpie- could you see the whites of their eyes?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: High Wycombe
Age: 41
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not quite the whites of there eyes! We were a couple of miles away but Heathrow Tower is one of those things you see and insantly recognise. Thats when you suddenly rise an extra inch or two in your seat!
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chin up MP!
As an examiner and instructor in my part of aviation, the first thing that I look for within the community is the honesty to own up and the balls to admit to making a mistake.
It takes courage to not only admit to your errors, but bigger mutts nutts to come out and be as honest as you were.
You ****** up in a truely royal fashion and paid a steep price, but it's not so important that we found out because of your error but more so that others can learn from it.
It's a shame that there aren't more folk like you within the professional side of flying training who are willing to admit errors they've got away with.
As an examiner and instructor in my part of aviation, the first thing that I look for within the community is the honesty to own up and the balls to admit to making a mistake.
It takes courage to not only admit to your errors, but bigger mutts nutts to come out and be as honest as you were.
You ****** up in a truely royal fashion and paid a steep price, but it's not so important that we found out because of your error but more so that others can learn from it.
It's a shame that there aren't more folk like you within the professional side of flying training who are willing to admit errors they've got away with.
dq120, I had a similar experience with a pilot who had a FAA licence and used to own a high performance light single. He wanted to fly our aircraft, so I took him on what I thought would probably be a straightforward familiarisation ride.
When he whacked the control yoke from one extreme to the other, banging against the limits, during the 'full and free' control check pre-start, the alarm bells started ringing. From then it got worse and worse - he didn't fly the aeroplane, it flew him. I had to take control during several of his landing attempts..... On another occasion we went for a short navex to learn some of the UK airspace and FIS/RIS quirks - he was hopeless. A simple circuit at an unfamiliar FISO aerodrome maxxed him out.
He went back to the US without having been cleared to fly our little PA28s.
When he whacked the control yoke from one extreme to the other, banging against the limits, during the 'full and free' control check pre-start, the alarm bells started ringing. From then it got worse and worse - he didn't fly the aeroplane, it flew him. I had to take control during several of his landing attempts..... On another occasion we went for a short navex to learn some of the UK airspace and FIS/RIS quirks - he was hopeless. A simple circuit at an unfamiliar FISO aerodrome maxxed him out.
He went back to the US without having been cleared to fly our little PA28s.
Pedro, sorry you have had your collar felt, but as said above you have learned a valuable lesson. having flown a lot in this area, given the proximity to the london class A, i am surprised your school didnt send you out with another instructor to point out the local landmarks, before you went up with a student.
if you can recognise wycombe, marlow and maidenhead, and you stay to the west, you will avoid trouble. the "november" joining point for WW at henley is, i am sure, there to keep joining traffic away from the class A. i suspect your club member thought he could fly a direct line between booker and WW, ignore the joining instructions, and get away with it.
if you can recognise wycombe, marlow and maidenhead, and you stay to the west, you will avoid trouble. the "november" joining point for WW at henley is, i am sure, there to keep joining traffic away from the class A. i suspect your club member thought he could fly a direct line between booker and WW, ignore the joining instructions, and get away with it.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MP,
Sorry to hear of your woes! You have my sympathy. Given certain circumstances, this could have happened to many of us.
I used to instruct, firstly part time then as a full time instructor, strangely out of White Waltham. Lovely airfield and locality BUT you have to be so careful operating in and out and VIGILANT at all times!
As an instructor you are a professional pilot (whatever anyone says) and you must know both your privileges and responsibilities. Take control, be assertive and therefore be a captain! Safety and legality are the most important aspects of flying, the rest can and does follow in my book.
I learned so much as an instructor and I am now a better pilot for it. Made loads of mistakes and frightened myself to death half a dozen times! I know at my old club that I would have been tipped off by more experienced colleagues when flying with these so-called "experienced PPLs". To my mind they (but not all) are the most dangerous and the ones most likely to get you in trouble or worse! Perhaps junior/new instructors, especially the young ones should be mentored a little more.
Good luck now!
Sorry to hear of your woes! You have my sympathy. Given certain circumstances, this could have happened to many of us.
I used to instruct, firstly part time then as a full time instructor, strangely out of White Waltham. Lovely airfield and locality BUT you have to be so careful operating in and out and VIGILANT at all times!
As an instructor you are a professional pilot (whatever anyone says) and you must know both your privileges and responsibilities. Take control, be assertive and therefore be a captain! Safety and legality are the most important aspects of flying, the rest can and does follow in my book.
I learned so much as an instructor and I am now a better pilot for it. Made loads of mistakes and frightened myself to death half a dozen times! I know at my old club that I would have been tipped off by more experienced colleagues when flying with these so-called "experienced PPLs". To my mind they (but not all) are the most dangerous and the ones most likely to get you in trouble or worse! Perhaps junior/new instructors, especially the young ones should be mentored a little more.
Good luck now!
Guest
Posts: n/a
MP
Sorry you had to learn it the hard way, but there is a big difference being being responsible for a flight and accountable for the conduct of the flight.
The former can be delegated and the latter cannot, as you found out to your cost.
I suffered from a similar assumption, except it was in reverse.
The instructor on my first night circuit for a year did not watch closely enough, because 'you seemed well in control and made a beautiful approach', however, I screwed the landing and was lucky not to damage the aeroplane as the instructor was too late intervening.
At the time, I had over 200 hours, was confident, knew the drills backwards and good on the r/t -BUT I was out of currency at night, even though very recent during daylight.
Moral of the story, if you are there as an instructor, monitor like a hawk and be ready to intervene at any stage.
If the person you are instructing doesn't like it, they have an attitude problem.
Sorry you had to learn it the hard way, but there is a big difference being being responsible for a flight and accountable for the conduct of the flight.
The former can be delegated and the latter cannot, as you found out to your cost.
I suffered from a similar assumption, except it was in reverse.
The instructor on my first night circuit for a year did not watch closely enough, because 'you seemed well in control and made a beautiful approach', however, I screwed the landing and was lucky not to damage the aeroplane as the instructor was too late intervening.
At the time, I had over 200 hours, was confident, knew the drills backwards and good on the r/t -BUT I was out of currency at night, even though very recent during daylight.
Moral of the story, if you are there as an instructor, monitor like a hawk and be ready to intervene at any stage.
If the person you are instructing doesn't like it, they have an attitude problem.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: world
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
this was meant to be a reply to BEagle..
the classic one I had which was by far the most alarming went as follows: I was sat in tower at an airfield (AG radio) and I got a call from a major airport controller asking me to tell all AC in the circuit to bugger off and any on the ground to stay put as he was talking a lost pilot in to our field. I did so and the bloke landed and taxied up to the apron. He got out and left all the lights flashing and brakes off. I thought he must be pissed up. In a brummy accent (which made a great tale greater) he told me that whilst on a solo x country of 15 mins he got lost and after an hour he had a near miss with an aircraft that came really close and waggled his wings. "i just waggled em back like" "there is some bloody idiots up there". I rang his flight school who were relieved he was down and not dead. They told me he busted Coventry, EMA, Birmingham (in the overhead) and Langar dropzoone. they asked if I would fly him back. Got to the plane with him and I asked why he was tiptoeing on the peddles. He said he did not know how to move his seatforward. It also turned out the reason he had to get ema to talk him down was coz he couldnt work out how to get even numbers on the radio! I took it to the fuel pump and it had f all fuel left and i mean FFF all. I let him fly it back to his base which he couldnt find. It turned out he had 75hrs and had only just gone solo, he owned an auster but crashed this in letouquet when he couldnt get the nose down coz his wife had a suitcase on her kneee in the back (i.e. the fuel went low so no weight in front), three in an Auster J1N to france??? not me thanks. I went a bit mad at his instructor for letting him go but after seeing the colour of his face (a whiter shade of white) I just went home.
Ahhh the joys. Never knew what happened...if any one recognises the story let me know the outcome.
Last edited by dragqueen120; 23rd Apr 2009 at 16:16. Reason: cocked it up
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: liverpool
Age: 47
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Three points:
- first of all we all balls things up. i know i have. the only difference is that some are lucky enough to do it in a fashion where it is subtle and doesnt get noticed where as some unlucky sods do something not so subtle and get it printed in the press. No one can possibly tell you something (ie what were you thinking? you have learned a valuable lesson etc etc) that you havnt already told yourself. i know this from experience.
-2nd as an ex instructor the renewals/revalidations/club check types especially the cocky ones are ALWAYS the ones to really watch out for. like someone else said on here, the good ones dont need to talk about how good they are.
-3rd. although i am not in a position to say this for sure; i should think this should not be a career blocker for you. People who have been around in aviation long enough have all made mistakes and know it could have been them. so long as you werent downright negligent and being a real cowboy then they can put themselves in your shoes and identify with you. nothing better in an interview than an interviewer that knows precisely where you are coming from even if he doesnt want to admit it.
- first of all we all balls things up. i know i have. the only difference is that some are lucky enough to do it in a fashion where it is subtle and doesnt get noticed where as some unlucky sods do something not so subtle and get it printed in the press. No one can possibly tell you something (ie what were you thinking? you have learned a valuable lesson etc etc) that you havnt already told yourself. i know this from experience.
-2nd as an ex instructor the renewals/revalidations/club check types especially the cocky ones are ALWAYS the ones to really watch out for. like someone else said on here, the good ones dont need to talk about how good they are.
-3rd. although i am not in a position to say this for sure; i should think this should not be a career blocker for you. People who have been around in aviation long enough have all made mistakes and know it could have been them. so long as you werent downright negligent and being a real cowboy then they can put themselves in your shoes and identify with you. nothing better in an interview than an interviewer that knows precisely where you are coming from even if he doesnt want to admit it.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
May I add some input as a retired Heathrow controller with over 30 years experience of watching this sort of thing happen a good many times? Infringements of the London Control Zone, even by experienced pilots, are not rare and are invariably down to poor airmanship and poor navigation.
When you first realised you were close to Heathrow and suddenly yanked the aircraft round to get away from the airport... did you not think of immediately contacting Heathrow SVFR to let them know what was happening? You were lost so it would have been very good airmanship to make contact with the controlling authority of the zone you were infringing: It would have given Heathrow ATC at least half a chance to avoid major delays at the airport because they could have vectored you straight to WW and they would have known your altitude, probably the most important piece of information you could have given them.
In Class A airspace, when it is believed that an aircraft is lost, has experienced radio failure or is making an unauthorised penetration of the airspace ATC is bound to keep other traffic clear of it. It's always difficult to guess the intentions of the lost pilot but a sudden and dramatic change of direction, with no information on altitude, would not have made life easy for those trying to keep commercial traffic safe.
Please remember that controllers will not "book" you unless it is really necessary. Report writing and subsequent interviews take up time which could be better spent. Many of them hold flying licences up to ATPL; some fly as commanders on passenger aircraft, others are flying instructors so they are sympathetic towards those who have made a genuine error..
If you wander into a busy control zone and do not talk to anyone, ATC will endeavour to trace you. If they are successful you may be asked to telephone them and explain what happened. DON'T argue - radar does not lie! If you have made a mistake, admit it. If the infringement was minor you'll probably just be reminded to improve your navigation in future.
If your infringement causes havoc, ATC has no choice but to file a report, which may lead to prosecution.
Lastly, do pilots make use of Google Earth during flight planning? White Waltham shows up quite well and it is possible to view an approach to the 'field from various directions, angles and altitudes. As I write, I have GE showing me the view looking northeast to WW at about 1500 ft altitude. The airfield is plain to see, as are surrounding roads and other landmarks. Give it a whirl... You could even print the picture and take it with you.
I hope this helps....
When you first realised you were close to Heathrow and suddenly yanked the aircraft round to get away from the airport... did you not think of immediately contacting Heathrow SVFR to let them know what was happening? You were lost so it would have been very good airmanship to make contact with the controlling authority of the zone you were infringing: It would have given Heathrow ATC at least half a chance to avoid major delays at the airport because they could have vectored you straight to WW and they would have known your altitude, probably the most important piece of information you could have given them.
In Class A airspace, when it is believed that an aircraft is lost, has experienced radio failure or is making an unauthorised penetration of the airspace ATC is bound to keep other traffic clear of it. It's always difficult to guess the intentions of the lost pilot but a sudden and dramatic change of direction, with no information on altitude, would not have made life easy for those trying to keep commercial traffic safe.
Please remember that controllers will not "book" you unless it is really necessary. Report writing and subsequent interviews take up time which could be better spent. Many of them hold flying licences up to ATPL; some fly as commanders on passenger aircraft, others are flying instructors so they are sympathetic towards those who have made a genuine error..
If you wander into a busy control zone and do not talk to anyone, ATC will endeavour to trace you. If they are successful you may be asked to telephone them and explain what happened. DON'T argue - radar does not lie! If you have made a mistake, admit it. If the infringement was minor you'll probably just be reminded to improve your navigation in future.
If your infringement causes havoc, ATC has no choice but to file a report, which may lead to prosecution.
Lastly, do pilots make use of Google Earth during flight planning? White Waltham shows up quite well and it is possible to view an approach to the 'field from various directions, angles and altitudes. As I write, I have GE showing me the view looking northeast to WW at about 1500 ft altitude. The airfield is plain to see, as are surrounding roads and other landmarks. Give it a whirl... You could even print the picture and take it with you.
I hope this helps....
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Paris
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Hours building Instructor. Sometimes their is a price to pay for those hours......"
Mr bose-x areyou a real CAA instructor and by that I mean a FI who has a JAA CPL, not just a LAA coach or a CRI?
I think this man learnt a hard lessonand did not deserve this comment.
Mr bose-x areyou a real CAA instructor and by that I mean a FI who has a JAA CPL, not just a LAA coach or a CRI?
I think this man learnt a hard lessonand did not deserve this comment.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: E Anglia
Posts: 1,102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chilling reading magpie. My sympathies as one who as a low hours PPL also bust the London TMA over Detling. I was lucky as I only got my knuclkes rapped: still lives with me though.
Had you considered posting on the instructors forum where you might get more valuable feedback than the usual PPRuNe crap you got on here?
Cusco
Had you considered posting on the instructors forum where you might get more valuable feedback than the usual PPRuNe crap you got on here?
Cusco
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Had you considered posting on the instructors forum where you might get more valuable feedback than the usual PPRuNe crap you got on here?"
At least MP probably wouldn't have got the unfair and harsh abuse from a CRI on the Instructors Forum....
At least MP probably wouldn't have got the unfair and harsh abuse from a CRI on the Instructors Forum....
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hotel Gypsy
Posts: 2,821
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've never had that particular scenario (still time to put a notch on the headboard!) but my closest was when doing slow speed/stalls. As ever, the one bit of useful blue was bordering the TMA and I spent much of my time chasing 4000ft of clear sky. Combine that with an average student who was struggling with stalls (practically and psycologically) I let my situational awareness dip. At the last moment I noticed a twon that appeared tio be a little cloe and a quick look at the GPS indicated we were about a mile the wrong side of the line. Lights on, transponder checked, a quick 180 and toggling the radio to the freq of the unit concerned (when known/available, I tend to have this selected in one of the boxes). ATC were very good, told me they were generating a bit of a gathering to watch the carnage and that was that.
I learnt about instructing from that.
I learnt about instructing from that.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At least MP probably wouldn't have got the unfair and harsh abuse from a CRI on the Instructors Forum....
I am sure you think that he should get a pat on the back for disrupting the traffic at one of the busiest airports in the world due to negligence. An Instructor whatever flavour they may be has a responsibility to ensure they do the job properly. MP clearly did not do the job properly and as a result was punished. Blowing smoke up his bum about how it can happen to anyone and how great a chap he is for telling us all about his sorrowful story still does not detract from the fact that he did not fulfil his duty as an Instructor properly and as a result caused a major incident. An incident that was investigated and he was find culpable and punished. Pretty simple to me.
Hopefully he has learnt from this mistake and it will make him a better Instructor and a more professional aviator. There has been plenty of good advice on here for him to heed. We all make mistakes and we all learn from them. But there is a line between a mistake and negligence and it seems in this case the line was crossed.
I am sorry if some people don't like the facts but my refusal to sugar coat them should not be grounds for personal attacks.