Spinning - recommendations please
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Lurkng and Used to Fly,I totally agree that it is more important not to spin than learn how to recover.
I wanted to see and feel what a spin was like,and if I had enough height,how to recover.
The entry into a spin is rather upsetting,at least now I would know what is happening and hopefully would remember how to get out of it.
I suppose the most important thing it taught me ,is how fatally dangerous a low level spin is and to never get near the conditions that would allow it.
One of my pals is an airline captain,he also flies a Pitts.
His advice was not to waste time and money on spinning, but to have some aero lessons.
Lister
I wanted to see and feel what a spin was like,and if I had enough height,how to recover.
The entry into a spin is rather upsetting,at least now I would know what is happening and hopefully would remember how to get out of it.
I suppose the most important thing it taught me ,is how fatally dangerous a low level spin is and to never get near the conditions that would allow it.
One of my pals is an airline captain,he also flies a Pitts.
His advice was not to waste time and money on spinning, but to have some aero lessons.
Lister
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
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Lister, the entry to the spin is 'upsetting' because that is the way we intentionally enter a spin. An unintentional spin will probably be entered in a far more interesting manner.
Please, don't be put off finding someone to demonstrate a spin. I just don't see its significance to the average PPL student.
Please, don't be put off finding someone to demonstrate a spin. I just don't see its significance to the average PPL student.
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How one could accidentally, while not flying aeros, get a typical modern GA aircraft into a fully developed multi-turn spin is beyond me.
But getting into something slightly beyond incipient is another matter. Do an 'ordinary' stall, with a few less-than-usual or messed up aspects: Stall in a turn, rapid deceleration, power left on, some friends in the back seat, freeze on the controls for a second or two... Good idea? Probably not. Could happen? Def!
I read somewhere something being suggested as a "useful exercise": To fly the aircraft well into the stall, keeping the nose up with elevator, and practice keeping the wings level with the rudder. Great fun, as is the spectacular departure when you finally lose it...
The result is of course not a developed spin, but a tad beyond the normal "recover at warner" type stall drill. I don't think I'll try that exercise again...
What my PPL spin training did for me is to give me more confidence when practicing stalls on my own. I know that even if I somehow make a big mess of it, to the point of actually getting into an incipient, I'm still in well known territory. I don't think I'd want to practice stalls alone, beyond the "recover at warner" stage, having not done spins.
But getting into something slightly beyond incipient is another matter. Do an 'ordinary' stall, with a few less-than-usual or messed up aspects: Stall in a turn, rapid deceleration, power left on, some friends in the back seat, freeze on the controls for a second or two... Good idea? Probably not. Could happen? Def!
I read somewhere something being suggested as a "useful exercise": To fly the aircraft well into the stall, keeping the nose up with elevator, and practice keeping the wings level with the rudder. Great fun, as is the spectacular departure when you finally lose it...
The result is of course not a developed spin, but a tad beyond the normal "recover at warner" type stall drill. I don't think I'll try that exercise again...What my PPL spin training did for me is to give me more confidence when practicing stalls on my own. I know that even if I somehow make a big mess of it, to the point of actually getting into an incipient, I'm still in well known territory. I don't think I'd want to practice stalls alone, beyond the "recover at warner" stage, having not done spins.
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Bjorn,
Exactly.
That was one of the reasons I wanted to learn spins.
So I could practice stalls in the L4 on my own without worrying about an unintentional spin.
Lister
Exactly.
That was one of the reasons I wanted to learn spins.
So I could practice stalls in the L4 on my own without worrying about an unintentional spin.
Lister
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Its about sensible risk management (IMHO)
Let's just stand back for a minute and consider when and why a PPL may encounter a spin.
The highest probability (IMHO) is from mishandling the controls at lower speeds, whilst one can provoke a spin from an accelerated stall, it's more likely that the base/final turn at low level will be the culprit.
Thus I support the initial approach that training should be focused on avoiding the stall that is a precursor to the spin.
That, at least in my thinking is the highest probability cause for lower houred pilots, so lots of slow flying (really controlling the aircraft close to the stall and recognising the visual picture, the different sounds and the 'feel; of the controls/buffet) and dealing with stalls and incipient spins to build recognition, avoidance and quick recovery would seem to make sense at first. This should include flying safe 'go arounds' to avoid departure stalls.
Once the PPL has gained some confidence and hours, then s/he will wish to start flying cross country journeys and exposing him/herself to new risks, such as taking aggressive avoiding action in the cruise and then may find themselves in a spin with enough altitude to recover.
At this stage, it seems sensible to at least understand the mechanics of how to set about recovering an aircraft that has departed, using a spin cleared aircraft (since obviously some types cannot be intentionally spun and you can't always practice on your usual mount.)
So spin (or areo) training seems to make sense at this stage.
Some people like eharding and Gorrilla obviosly get a kick out of it (good for you guys
), some others (me included) don't like it - David Houl's description made me laugh, as it was close to the bone for me - but whatever one's perspective, it makes sense to get some training.
For me, its about sensible risk mitigation that changes with pilot experience and flight profile.
The highest probability (IMHO) is from mishandling the controls at lower speeds, whilst one can provoke a spin from an accelerated stall, it's more likely that the base/final turn at low level will be the culprit.
Thus I support the initial approach that training should be focused on avoiding the stall that is a precursor to the spin.
That, at least in my thinking is the highest probability cause for lower houred pilots, so lots of slow flying (really controlling the aircraft close to the stall and recognising the visual picture, the different sounds and the 'feel; of the controls/buffet) and dealing with stalls and incipient spins to build recognition, avoidance and quick recovery would seem to make sense at first. This should include flying safe 'go arounds' to avoid departure stalls.
Once the PPL has gained some confidence and hours, then s/he will wish to start flying cross country journeys and exposing him/herself to new risks, such as taking aggressive avoiding action in the cruise and then may find themselves in a spin with enough altitude to recover.
At this stage, it seems sensible to at least understand the mechanics of how to set about recovering an aircraft that has departed, using a spin cleared aircraft (since obviously some types cannot be intentionally spun and you can't always practice on your usual mount.)
So spin (or areo) training seems to make sense at this stage.
Some people like eharding and Gorrilla obviosly get a kick out of it (good for you guys
), some others (me included) don't like it - David Houl's description made me laugh, as it was close to the bone for me - but whatever one's perspective, it makes sense to get some training.For me, its about sensible risk mitigation that changes with pilot experience and flight profile.
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Lister
Frankly this is ridiculous. Any Aerobatic pilot worth talking to will tell you that spinning familiarization is the core of any aerobatic flying. You cannot start flying ANY aerobatic maneuver without a good grounding in UA and spin recovery.
Being an Airline captain and owning a Pitts does not imply sensible advice. (This is being written by an airline pilot that has owned Pitts's)
Fly safe Get trained! Money spent on Spin training is not money wasted, but money invested in your future well being. (And that of your passengers)
I can attest that my Unusual Attitude and emergency spin recovery training that I received from Alan Cassidy at White Waltham many years ago, saved my life last year. Practicing for a display the aircraft departed into an unknown auto-rotation. The basic Emergency recovery technique taught to me, was the difference between being here and not.
Fcirc
One of my pals is an airline captain,he also flies a Pitts.
His advice was not to waste time and money on spinning, but to have some aero lessons.
His advice was not to waste time and money on spinning, but to have some aero lessons.
Being an Airline captain and owning a Pitts does not imply sensible advice. (This is being written by an airline pilot that has owned Pitts's)
Fly safe Get trained! Money spent on Spin training is not money wasted, but money invested in your future well being. (And that of your passengers)
I can attest that my Unusual Attitude and emergency spin recovery training that I received from Alan Cassidy at White Waltham many years ago, saved my life last year. Practicing for a display the aircraft departed into an unknown auto-rotation. The basic Emergency recovery technique taught to me, was the difference between being here and not.
Fcirc
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fcirc
I think you misread what he meant. he was not saying dont do spin training but to really boost your confidence in the whole handling regime (including spins) take a course on aerobatics.
A bit like a car driver passing his driving test then investing in some skid pan training to become more confident in handling a car when it is not going straight and level
Sensible advice I would say.
Pace
I think you misread what he meant. he was not saying dont do spin training but to really boost your confidence in the whole handling regime (including spins) take a course on aerobatics.
A bit like a car driver passing his driving test then investing in some skid pan training to become more confident in handling a car when it is not going straight and level
Sensible advice I would say.
Pace
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My pal,like most airline pilots did his time as an instructor and tells me he really enjoyed it.
He is not a flash character,his advice to me was well meaning and constructive, he thought I would get more from a combined aero course than just spinning.
I would think that his advice might have some relevance,not because he is a senior airline pilot,but because he has several thousands of hours in different aircraft including SEP's and cares for my flying safety.
Lister
He is not a flash character,his advice to me was well meaning and constructive, he thought I would get more from a combined aero course than just spinning.
I would think that his advice might have some relevance,not because he is a senior airline pilot,but because he has several thousands of hours in different aircraft including SEP's and cares for my flying safety.
Lister
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Well trust Mr Harding to bring food into the discussion, however he is correct, an empty stomach will make you feel queasy as will a very full one. About an hour after a bacon sandwich and a cup of tea is the best time to try aeros or spins if you want avoid feeling ill. Lots of fresh air also helps.
As far as spin training is concerned I would agree that a C152 Aerobat will allow you to experience a spin, but as you will lose 1000-1500 ft in a spin you will then spend 5 mins or more getting back up to height. Do it in an Extra, Pitts etc. and you will do just as many spins but in half the time so the cost will be similar.
I would also suggest asking for a spin while in a turn to be demonstrated. This is the sort of spin that will occur when turning from base to final where you use a bit too much rudder and a bit too much pull to try and get lined up and all of a sudden it lets go.
'Normal' spins are done from a straight ahead stall with rudder applied and are much less likely to be encountered during normal flying.
Not sure whether its best during the training or afterwards. I can't see that it would make a lot of difference.
As far as spin training is concerned I would agree that a C152 Aerobat will allow you to experience a spin, but as you will lose 1000-1500 ft in a spin you will then spend 5 mins or more getting back up to height. Do it in an Extra, Pitts etc. and you will do just as many spins but in half the time so the cost will be similar.
I would also suggest asking for a spin while in a turn to be demonstrated. This is the sort of spin that will occur when turning from base to final where you use a bit too much rudder and a bit too much pull to try and get lined up and all of a sudden it lets go.
'Normal' spins are done from a straight ahead stall with rudder applied and are much less likely to be encountered during normal flying.
Not sure whether its best during the training or afterwards. I can't see that it would make a lot of difference.
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Lister
It was the phrase "waste time and money on spinning" that I just cannot agree with!! Yes an aero course is also a good investment, but any time and money invested in spin training is money well spent. I think it was the phrasing of the quote!! Its a chicken and egg situation, aeros and spin training. I think we all agree that the important thing is to get trained and enjoy it.....
Cheers
It was the phrase "waste time and money on spinning" that I just cannot agree with!! Yes an aero course is also a good investment, but any time and money invested in spin training is money well spent. I think it was the phrasing of the quote!! Its a chicken and egg situation, aeros and spin training. I think we all agree that the important thing is to get trained and enjoy it.....
Cheers
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Flyingcircus,
I think they may be my words interpretting what he said,anyway thank you for your input (in fact thank you all for words of wisdom)
I am happier having done some spin training and as the Extra instructor said,
"Come back and try some aeros next time"
I hope to do some later this year.
Lister
I think they may be my words interpretting what he said,anyway thank you for your input (in fact thank you all for words of wisdom)
I am happier having done some spin training and as the Extra instructor said,
"Come back and try some aeros next time"
I hope to do some later this year.
Lister
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Since im new to this i think it may be fear of the unknownwhen it comes to spins so i think some spin training will be soon on the agenda! surely something that can save your life cant be wasted time or money. is it something thats included in CPL or FI training???
when it comes to spins so i think some spin training will be soon on the agenda! surely something that can save your life cant be wasted time or money. is it something thats included in CPL or FI training???
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surely something that can save your life cant be wasted time or money.
People that get into a spin by accident are likely to do so at low level where all the spin training in the world is not going to buy you enough altitude to recover. You don't spin accidentally during cruise flight, at cruise altitude, unless you do something exceedingly stupid.
The only people that get into a spin these days are people that deliberately want to spin an aircraft, either because they are testing the aircraft to its limits, or because they're flying aerobatics.
Aerobatics in general improves your handling skills which is beneficial for normal flying. Of course. But the "spin recovery" portion of aerobatics is so far removed from normal flying that you really won't need that particular skill in normal flying. Doing very steep turns (75 degrees AoB = 4G) is arguably a better way of spending your time and money than spinning if all you want is to improve your straight and level flying skills.
I have recently taken two multi-1000 hour ATPLs up in the R2160 to show them what a spin looks like. They had never spun an aircraft during their entire careers. Does that make them less safe? I don't think so: they were perfectly able to recognize all the pre-stall/spin warnings and knew what avoiding action to take. We only spun the aircraft after we deliberately ignored all the warnings. (And yes, the R2160 is cleared for intentional spinning, and I've had extensive training in spinning it.)
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...and pretty much the first practical topic in a well-structured aerobatic course would be?
No seriously, I can't believe an airline captain and Pitts owner would suggest that spin training is a waste of time, but go fly aeros instead!!!
Think someone has their wires crossed or said person is living on borrowed time.
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Personally I think spin training can be a double edged sword.
One side of me reckons that an hours worth doesn't really teach you anything meaningfull to effect a timely recovery if you in one and save the day. But what it does do is allow you to recognise the moments before the spin and usually scares the hell out of you so that those moments are embedded deep in your sub concious. Its more a method of installing a third sense of what attitude not to go near.
The other side says there is a danger you can scare the student to much and their sub conscious starts injecting an unfounded fear that they are going to spin at any moment in normal flight. It effects the learning curve after that
Now should you go and pay money to visit another school?
6 of one and half a dozen to be honest. You could go and pay heaps for some ex red arrow to dazzle you or you could just get some normal aero's instructor to show you. Personally if I was tight for cash I wouldn't bother. If I was ok for cash I do a normal aero's instructor. If I was minted I would go for the red arrow option.
I used to spin the PA38 once or twice a month when I worked as instructor, was quite comfortable doing it. I now know I probably really didn't have much clue what was going on. Unless I go back to instructing I really don't think I will be spinning an aircraft again.
One side of me reckons that an hours worth doesn't really teach you anything meaningfull to effect a timely recovery if you in one and save the day. But what it does do is allow you to recognise the moments before the spin and usually scares the hell out of you so that those moments are embedded deep in your sub concious. Its more a method of installing a third sense of what attitude not to go near.
The other side says there is a danger you can scare the student to much and their sub conscious starts injecting an unfounded fear that they are going to spin at any moment in normal flight. It effects the learning curve after that
Now should you go and pay money to visit another school?
6 of one and half a dozen to be honest. You could go and pay heaps for some ex red arrow to dazzle you or you could just get some normal aero's instructor to show you. Personally if I was tight for cash I wouldn't bother. If I was ok for cash I do a normal aero's instructor. If I was minted I would go for the red arrow option.
I used to spin the PA38 once or twice a month when I worked as instructor, was quite comfortable doing it. I now know I probably really didn't have much clue what was going on. Unless I go back to instructing I really don't think I will be spinning an aircraft again.
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Gorilla
My pal told me this after I had already done two sessions of spinning.
What the sessions did was to make me realise that an unplanned spin is not a place to be,and to make every effort not to get there!
But if I did ,with enough height I might have some chance of getting out of it.
I found that spins are unnerving,and I can understand why it was taken of the PPL syllabus.
Lister
What the sessions did was to make me realise that an unplanned spin is not a place to be,and to make every effort not to get there!
But if I did ,with enough height I might have some chance of getting out of it.
I found that spins are unnerving,and I can understand why it was taken of the PPL syllabus.
Lister
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Mad Jock
Surely it is irrelevant whether it is a spin? We should be looking at equiping a pilot to be prepared for any eventuality no matter how unlikely.
Not spinning would be akin to not stalling! you could get an aircraft to an incipient stage and then recover and never fully stall an aircraft.
Fear is usually based on the unknown lack of fear is based on knowledge experience and familiarity.
If you are a pilot who has spun many types of aircraft many times you have knowledge of the spin, you have familiarity with the spin and you have experience of the spin which = more confidence with your aircraft.
The biggest fear is not knowing. Spinning is just one part of the flight envelope. Make a pilot familiar and comfortable with aircraft handling in all its guises and you have to have a better pilot.
The biggest killer in any situation and where the pilot will loose the plot is panic. Be unfamiliar and lack confidence with spinning and should you ever get into one you then have that nasty ingredient called panic.
Maybe the word aeros should not be used. Maybe it should be an advanced handling course which includes spinning, fully developed stalls, devloped spiral dives, etc as well as a theoretical understanding of what is going on.
Lister Noble I can remember doing my first spin. I was scared. Then we did more spins until that fear became enjoyement. In fact once in the spin the spin is comfortable. Am I an aerobatic pilot who loves aeros NO. Would I have regretted not spinning a resounding YES. Do I have a better understanding of the spin becuase of it YES. Would that training help me in an inadvertant real spin situation probably YES.
For me a spiral dive is a far more daunting exercise and one where you can easely break the plane. Not only is it uncomfortable with G forces but fast with the chance of going beyond VNE. What do you do there avoid that training too? In the end what would we have left and what sort of pilots ?
Spins back in the early days of aviation were used as a means of controlled descent through cloud in aircraft with no instrumentation.
Pace
Surely it is irrelevant whether it is a spin? We should be looking at equiping a pilot to be prepared for any eventuality no matter how unlikely.
Not spinning would be akin to not stalling! you could get an aircraft to an incipient stage and then recover and never fully stall an aircraft.
Fear is usually based on the unknown lack of fear is based on knowledge experience and familiarity.
If you are a pilot who has spun many types of aircraft many times you have knowledge of the spin, you have familiarity with the spin and you have experience of the spin which = more confidence with your aircraft.
The biggest fear is not knowing. Spinning is just one part of the flight envelope. Make a pilot familiar and comfortable with aircraft handling in all its guises and you have to have a better pilot.
The biggest killer in any situation and where the pilot will loose the plot is panic. Be unfamiliar and lack confidence with spinning and should you ever get into one you then have that nasty ingredient called panic.
Maybe the word aeros should not be used. Maybe it should be an advanced handling course which includes spinning, fully developed stalls, devloped spiral dives, etc as well as a theoretical understanding of what is going on.
Lister Noble I can remember doing my first spin. I was scared. Then we did more spins until that fear became enjoyement. In fact once in the spin the spin is comfortable. Am I an aerobatic pilot who loves aeros NO. Would I have regretted not spinning a resounding YES. Do I have a better understanding of the spin becuase of it YES. Would that training help me in an inadvertant real spin situation probably YES.
For me a spiral dive is a far more daunting exercise and one where you can easely break the plane. Not only is it uncomfortable with G forces but fast with the chance of going beyond VNE. What do you do there avoid that training too? In the end what would we have left and what sort of pilots ?
Spins back in the early days of aviation were used as a means of controlled descent through cloud in aircraft with no instrumentation.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 18th Feb 2009 at 09:54.
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Well I can see your reasoning.
To be honest I think the way things are is fine if the person wants to go spinning they can and if they don't they don't.
Each person is different as has been said before the phase of flight which the pilot is most likely to encounter the conditions that a spin is possible is in the approach phase. And if they do manage to do all the wrong things and enter a spin it doesn't really matter who is driving the thing they are dead.
And as for the train for every situation its not going to happen in the time scales and to be honest most of the sutble aspects of flying you really need to revisit once you have a few hours of experience under your belt.
Personally I believe that if you teach the very basics properly ie attitude flying (and not this yank nonsense of looking at your instruments all the time), trimming, lookout and being smooth on the controls . This does more for preventing inadvertent spin entry than fannying about in unusual attitudes.
And I can't see how you can equip them for every eventuality the last 3 times I had to declare the problem wasn't in the QRH I had to make something up. What you can do though is give them very firm foundations with the core skills which they can build upon later.
And lister go and do some spinning in a glider its whole heap slower but they are mad bastards and do it bloody close to the ground and through clouds. I didn't mind the clouds to much but had a bit of a bum clentcher when the instructor spun it at 2000ft which to them it was high, to me who usually spun a tomahawk it was 4000ft to low.
To be honest I think the way things are is fine if the person wants to go spinning they can and if they don't they don't.
Each person is different as has been said before the phase of flight which the pilot is most likely to encounter the conditions that a spin is possible is in the approach phase. And if they do manage to do all the wrong things and enter a spin it doesn't really matter who is driving the thing they are dead.
And as for the train for every situation its not going to happen in the time scales and to be honest most of the sutble aspects of flying you really need to revisit once you have a few hours of experience under your belt.
Personally I believe that if you teach the very basics properly ie attitude flying (and not this yank nonsense of looking at your instruments all the time), trimming, lookout and being smooth on the controls . This does more for preventing inadvertent spin entry than fannying about in unusual attitudes.
And I can't see how you can equip them for every eventuality the last 3 times I had to declare the problem wasn't in the QRH I had to make something up. What you can do though is give them very firm foundations with the core skills which they can build upon later.
And lister go and do some spinning in a glider its whole heap slower but they are mad bastards and do it bloody close to the ground and through clouds. I didn't mind the clouds to much but had a bit of a bum clentcher when the instructor spun it at 2000ft which to them it was high, to me who usually spun a tomahawk it was 4000ft to low.