Spinning - recommendations please
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Spinning - recommendations please
Hi everyone...
I'm working my way through the PPL syllabus and have just completed stalling.
Although I've been told it's not a mandatory exercise, I'd like to experience full spins / spin recovery however the aircraft I'm training in is not approved for this procedure. The local school I'm with does not have an aircraft that is.
Can anyone recommend a school or professional independent instructor in Hampshire, Berkshire or Dorset areas (or just outside) where I could do this? The main objective is to use this as a learning exercise in order to understand the spinning process and how to recover. What I don't want is a gun-ho pilot who will use the opportunity just to thrill themselves or impress onlookers with a full aerobatic routine, with me sat wondering what on earth's going on!
Look forward to your constructive recommendations. Thanks for your help in advance.
I'm working my way through the PPL syllabus and have just completed stalling.
Although I've been told it's not a mandatory exercise, I'd like to experience full spins / spin recovery however the aircraft I'm training in is not approved for this procedure. The local school I'm with does not have an aircraft that is.
Can anyone recommend a school or professional independent instructor in Hampshire, Berkshire or Dorset areas (or just outside) where I could do this? The main objective is to use this as a learning exercise in order to understand the spinning process and how to recover. What I don't want is a gun-ho pilot who will use the opportunity just to thrill themselves or impress onlookers with a full aerobatic routine, with me sat wondering what on earth's going on!
Look forward to your constructive recommendations. Thanks for your help in advance.
Last edited by EGHOboi; 15th Feb 2009 at 09:14.
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Hi EGHOboi,
Your attitude seems right, which is a good start for spin training. I cannot offer specific locations for spin training near you, but perhaps a little advice.
Though there are a number of aircraft approved in the "utility' category, and therefore likely approved for spins, I have found the Cessna 150/152/172 very good for spin training. Look for a school whoh uses these aircraft. I think it's entirely fine to take a side trak from your main school for a little extra training in the aircraft type capable of the manuevers you would likt to learn.
I completely agree that you are entitled to the training you want. Explain exactly what you want, and expect to get it. If what you want is an hour or two of one turn spins, there's no reason that cannot be provided to you by a compotent instructor. You need not suffer undesired aerobatics - if it happens, the pilot you're flying with is not professional or compotent - don't go again with them!
Be resaaured that it is a certification requirement for any of these types that it must not be possible to obtain an unrecoverable spin with any use of the controls. Most spin approved type will get themselves at least somewhat recovered just by letting go. Of course, a properly executed recovery is what you're there to learn, and is what should be done, but don't be afraid of it!
Other aircraft typs I've been required to spin during flight tests really do require a deliberate spin recovery, or the recovery would be (okay, was, on a few occasions!) very delayed and sloppy, with exceedances of other limitations possible. In a 150/152/172, you'd really have to be well away from the proper recovery technique to creat an unsafe situation. It will look scary the first few times though!
Don't forget to fly the plane, don't let it fly you!
Have fun!
Pilot DAR
Your attitude seems right, which is a good start for spin training. I cannot offer specific locations for spin training near you, but perhaps a little advice.
Though there are a number of aircraft approved in the "utility' category, and therefore likely approved for spins, I have found the Cessna 150/152/172 very good for spin training. Look for a school whoh uses these aircraft. I think it's entirely fine to take a side trak from your main school for a little extra training in the aircraft type capable of the manuevers you would likt to learn.
I completely agree that you are entitled to the training you want. Explain exactly what you want, and expect to get it. If what you want is an hour or two of one turn spins, there's no reason that cannot be provided to you by a compotent instructor. You need not suffer undesired aerobatics - if it happens, the pilot you're flying with is not professional or compotent - don't go again with them!
Be resaaured that it is a certification requirement for any of these types that it must not be possible to obtain an unrecoverable spin with any use of the controls. Most spin approved type will get themselves at least somewhat recovered just by letting go. Of course, a properly executed recovery is what you're there to learn, and is what should be done, but don't be afraid of it!
Other aircraft typs I've been required to spin during flight tests really do require a deliberate spin recovery, or the recovery would be (okay, was, on a few occasions!) very delayed and sloppy, with exceedances of other limitations possible. In a 150/152/172, you'd really have to be well away from the proper recovery technique to creat an unsafe situation. It will look scary the first few times though!
Don't forget to fly the plane, don't let it fly you!
Have fun!
Pilot DAR
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Spinning....
For it to be done properly.....
try these guys.....
Ultimate High - Flying School, Air Displays and corporate entertainment
Single spin trips right through to full aeros training and beyond!
HTH
DD
try these guys.....
Ultimate High - Flying School, Air Displays and corporate entertainment
Single spin trips right through to full aeros training and beyond!
HTH
DD
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I'd say it depends on what you want to learn. If you're doing your ppl on a 172 and you're concerned about accidental spin, then go spin one of those. I'd suggest more emphasis is placed on the incipient stage of the spin in this case, though wise to have a look at a developed one too. Or if you just want the experience of watching the world rotate rapidly infront of you for a while, go and spin a fully aerobatic beastie for 5 or 6 turns.
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The piper PA-38 tomahawk makes a good spin trainer. They are not forgiving, but will recover, as long as you use the correct methods to recover.
So add schools with PA38's to your list as well, I am an instructor based at Cranfield and would be more than happy to teach you, but I think its a bit out of your way
So add schools with PA38's to your list as well, I am an instructor based at Cranfield and would be more than happy to teach you, but I think its a bit out of your way
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I disagree with all the above.
Let the poster finish his PPL first under the control of one school and once he gets his PPL, go on to the advanced training he wishes.
By then he could decide to go for spin training, for IMC (the weather is a bigger killer) or any other training which is appropriate for him.
The syllabus was not written the way it is for nothing. Furthermore to advocate changing types of planes, airport and school procedures half way, to then return to the original ones is stupid.
It will cost more to the student and delay his training.
One step at the time....
I can remember having the same urge when i did my stalls. My instructor showed me an incipient spin and a spiral dive, but i continued on my quest for more knowledge on stalls. Nevertheless, I now feel that spin training so early on in my flying career would not have benefitted me, especially not if it had to be done in a different location by unknown instructors in different planes with different RT and different school and airport procedures. The only way to do this would be if your current school was willing to insert an hour of spin training in a plane you knew, but even then the benefits would be minor at this stage
Let the poster finish his PPL first under the control of one school and once he gets his PPL, go on to the advanced training he wishes.
By then he could decide to go for spin training, for IMC (the weather is a bigger killer) or any other training which is appropriate for him.
The syllabus was not written the way it is for nothing. Furthermore to advocate changing types of planes, airport and school procedures half way, to then return to the original ones is stupid.
It will cost more to the student and delay his training.
One step at the time....
I can remember having the same urge when i did my stalls. My instructor showed me an incipient spin and a spiral dive, but i continued on my quest for more knowledge on stalls. Nevertheless, I now feel that spin training so early on in my flying career would not have benefitted me, especially not if it had to be done in a different location by unknown instructors in different planes with different RT and different school and airport procedures. The only way to do this would be if your current school was willing to insert an hour of spin training in a plane you knew, but even then the benefits would be minor at this stage
Last edited by vanHorck; 15th Feb 2009 at 08:19. Reason: further thoughts
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I agree with everyone really but just in the right order. Finish your PPL first, then find the money to convert to another type and do the spin training at the same time. That is exactly what I did.
At the end of my PPL I had deposit money resting with the school. I transferred it to 5 hrs conversion and spin training.
At the end of my PPL I had deposit money resting with the school. I transferred it to 5 hrs conversion and spin training.
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Thanks for your helpful comments. My PPL Air Pilots Manual 1 (Flying Training) includes the full spin as exercise 11b - just after stalling / incipient spin and before going into the circuit. It does state that it's not a mandatory exercise which I appreciate. With respect to recent replies in this thread I guess a good question to answer is; when do you think it's best to do these - at this stage or after the course is complete? Could be useful for other PPRuNe PPL wannabes to read in the future...
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EGHboi
I had exactly the same feelings as you,but I finished my PPL first then did 25 mins in a Citabria spin training,then about a year later 40 mins spins in an Extra.
Spins are quite disconcerting ,and you will feel very disoriented at first.
My aim was not to get into a situation that I could not get out of,and primarily not to get into a spin in the first place!
As mentioned do it with an experienced instructor,there are lots in East Anglia although that is not much help to you,but as suggested,I'm sure there must be excellent places to do it nearer to you.
Lister
Spins are quite disconcerting ,and you will feel very disoriented at first.
My aim was not to get into a situation that I could not get out of,and primarily not to get into a spin in the first place!
As mentioned do it with an experienced instructor,there are lots in East Anglia although that is not much help to you,but as suggested,I'm sure there must be excellent places to do it nearer to you.
Lister
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I did some spin training in a PA38 at the Highlands Flying School post PPL, which included recovery from fully developed spins.
It feels like doing a backward somersault while falling over a cliff. A big breakfast beforehand is not recommended.
Expect to look pale and feel ill afterwards.
It feels like doing a backward somersault while falling over a cliff. A big breakfast beforehand is not recommended.
Expect to look pale and feel ill afterwards.
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There are many of us here who had to do spins as part of their PPL. The reasons why they were removed as a mandatory element are well documented. However, when they were removed the requirement from slow speed awareness training was increased. The theory was that students (at least PPL students) should be given far greater depth of knowledge in how to avoid spins/stall etc rather than just learning how to recover. After all, the most likely scenario for an inexperience pilot to get into a spin is the base/final turn at about 500ft or so; spin recovery technique in this environment is rather academic.
Intentional spinning is a bit like instructors encouraging students to 'play around' within the stall; what's the point? These are flight regimes that the inexperienced should be recognising the onset of and subsequently avoiding.
I'm not sure the average PPL student would gain much from a short lesson in spinning and it is probably something you should do after your PPL, along with other continuous learning skills. That said, if you wish to burn some money........
PS. The PA38 does indeed spin well. It can also bite. I can think of far more benign aircraft I would wish to use to demonstrate spins.
Intentional spinning is a bit like instructors encouraging students to 'play around' within the stall; what's the point? These are flight regimes that the inexperienced should be recognising the onset of and subsequently avoiding.
I'm not sure the average PPL student would gain much from a short lesson in spinning and it is probably something you should do after your PPL, along with other continuous learning skills. That said, if you wish to burn some money........
PS. The PA38 does indeed spin well. It can also bite. I can think of far more benign aircraft I would wish to use to demonstrate spins.
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If you want to learn about spins and spin recovery 25 mins really is not enough. For the first 5/6 spins the world goes around the windscreen pretty quickly, only from number seven onwards does it appear to slow down enough to feel you have control.
Its not just the spinning that counts, learn all about it, despite it being considered dangerous and at least one person here indicated he fell queasy it is in fact a stable flight condition which in a well manufactured and balanced aircraft will respond in a quite precise way.
For anyone that has or is thinking about spinning a PA38, have you ever found time to look back as you enter the spin (not recommended if you are in control). I have spun PA38's twice, once in command and the second time as a passenger where I was told to look back at the fin. As an engineer that is something I never want to see again and I will never spin a PA38 again.
I have never seen a fin move so much without failing and I now understand why the fin on a PA38 requires so many inspections and modifications.
Its not just the spinning that counts, learn all about it, despite it being considered dangerous and at least one person here indicated he fell queasy it is in fact a stable flight condition which in a well manufactured and balanced aircraft will respond in a quite precise way.
For anyone that has or is thinking about spinning a PA38, have you ever found time to look back as you enter the spin (not recommended if you are in control). I have spun PA38's twice, once in command and the second time as a passenger where I was told to look back at the fin. As an engineer that is something I never want to see again and I will never spin a PA38 again.
I have never seen a fin move so much without failing and I now understand why the fin on a PA38 requires so many inspections and modifications.
I'll chip in my 2 cents worth. I've spun Chipmunks, 172s, Citabrias and Tomahawks, and taught spinning in gliders - Blanik L13 and Lark IS28B2.
I agree with Karl about spins in the Tomahawk (although I have never looked at the tail while doing so) - it was by far the most uncomfortable and unpleasant spin I have ever experienced.
However, I feel strongly that even if spin training is no longer mandatory, students should be encouraged to try spinning with a qualified instructor, preferably in the type they are learning on, if it is certified for spins.
For many years, I could not imagine how a pilot could accidentally get into a spin, until one day, while my student was thermalling at 35kts, with half flap, about 5kts above the stall, we suddenly became inverted and were entering a spin.
What was interesting was that the student, who was a "natural" pilot (quick to learn, flew precisely, understood the theory, etc.), had not yet seen spins and was completely shocked and had absolutely no idea what had happened until I explained it to him.
So EGHOboi, go and get some spin training and then if you want to expand your skills, during instrument training, try spinning under the hood and recovering using partial panel!
I agree with Karl about spins in the Tomahawk (although I have never looked at the tail while doing so) - it was by far the most uncomfortable and unpleasant spin I have ever experienced.
However, I feel strongly that even if spin training is no longer mandatory, students should be encouraged to try spinning with a qualified instructor, preferably in the type they are learning on, if it is certified for spins.
For many years, I could not imagine how a pilot could accidentally get into a spin, until one day, while my student was thermalling at 35kts, with half flap, about 5kts above the stall, we suddenly became inverted and were entering a spin.
What was interesting was that the student, who was a "natural" pilot (quick to learn, flew precisely, understood the theory, etc.), had not yet seen spins and was completely shocked and had absolutely no idea what had happened until I explained it to him.
So EGHOboi, go and get some spin training and then if you want to expand your skills, during instrument training, try spinning under the hood and recovering using partial panel!
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The question was: Should a ppl student who has just done stalls go to another school NOW to do some spin training (apparently he must have asked his own instructor or school and they won't or can't oblige).
The answer should honestly be: All in good time, now is not the time to change your rhythm.
I agree spin training is good (though preferably not in a PA38) but i strongly suggest you finish the PPL first and then take it up
The answer should honestly be: All in good time, now is not the time to change your rhythm.
I agree spin training is good (though preferably not in a PA38) but i strongly suggest you finish the PPL first and then take it up
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If you are lo0king at the Berkshire Hampshire region then Blackbushe Aviation at Blackbushe have an Aerobat they use for Aeros.
I bought a spinning session for a PPL friend who had trained on a Pa28 and he enjoyed it tremendously.
I bought a spinning session for a PPL friend who had trained on a Pa28 and he enjoyed it tremendously.
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I did my spin training in a Yak-52. The first spin was eye-popping... I knew the theory but never expected it to be so quick and steep (it was about 60° nose down but at first seemed almost vertical). The second one was somewhat easier. From the third time on, it was pure enjoyment. Although Yak-52 is quite dangerous in inexperienced hands and will not get out of a spin by itself, it can safely do all kinds of spins - steep or flat, upright or inverted, and with the right technique recovers easily and reliably from all of them.
After the Yak, a spin in a Cessna was nothing to write home about.
After the Yak, a spin in a Cessna was nothing to write home about.
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
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Firstly, the vast majority of problems associated with sickness experienced by those unused to aerobatics are caused by an empty stomach - anxiety, combined with a lot of unused stomach acid (or even worse, a couple of cups of coffee and nothing else) swilling about in there is bound to cause a degree of nausea. Personally, my ideal start to the perfect day of aerobatics involves a Full English breakfast, but at the very least I'd recommend something moderately filling. Cassidy strongly advocates the use of porridge as the breakfast of aerobatic champions; Sod that, I say - go for an egg banjo as a minimum - you can work up to Unlimited Porridge later.
Secondly, having dealt with the basic nutritional issues, the fact is that people often think themselves into a state of nausea - so called "fearful anticipation" - not helped by comments such as those above by DH. You shouldn't emerge from the aircraft after your first spinning trip "pale and feeling ill afterwards" - you should emerge with a stupid grin, probably rather sweaty, and wondering (a) what all the doom and gloom was about (b) that it was actually bloody good fun and (c) when can you go again?
Failure to achieve (a),(b) and (c) would largely be down to a combination of the instructor and the airframe. I would recommend seeking out an instructor for whom spinning, and aerobatics in general, are second nature. In order for you to be relaxed, you need to be in the company of someone who has the experience and ability that *no* matter how badly you manage to botch the affair, they will be able to sort it out in short order. The choice of airframe is also important - if you want to experience the maximum amount of spin training for your money, then choose something aerobatic with an acceptable degree of performance (Cessna Aerobats need not apply, sorry) - otherwise most of your money will be spent having some wheezing spamcan ponderously claw itself back up to height at your expense.
Given your stated location requirements, I would say get yourself down to White Waltham and book a session with Cassidy or one of the other excellent aerobatic instructors there - you will get a thorough ground briefing explaining the theory of, and a lucid, measured practical training in the practise of spinning in a capable airframe.
Oh, and the food is brilliant as well.
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I think it would probably be best to finish your PPL then give consideration to spin training. Most if not all decide after the lessons on slow flight and incipient spins that is enough for them and would much rather the prevention method as suppose to the cure. I came from a sailplane back ground and it was compulsory to complete spin training before you could fly solo although the sailplane I went solo on was fairly spin resistant (T21) however the Polish Puchaz spun very well and was great fun and our CFI of the day was a great advocate of spin training when we attained a height of 3000ft AGL on a training flight. We were lucky at our club to receive a spin training day from one of the BGA safety officers and he could spin the Puchaz from a winch launch which looking back now I think is crazy considering we normally reached around 1200ft aal from a winch launch!! As other posters have alluded to spinning is not a big killer post PPL more so weather or VFR into IMC. Spinning still kills pilots and most would be from failed engines on take off and an attempt at turning back. There was a video of a Tiger Moth with a wing walker and the said aircraft experienced a loss of power on take off and the pilot attempted a turn back and stalled and spun in resulting in instant death of the wing walker and the pilot succumbing to his injuries later. The other scenario is engine failure and an attempt to stretch the glide or low slow turns. Rant over good luck with your PPL it's great fun and if you want to experience spinning in the purest form don't discount a trip to your local gliding club where I am sure any of the instructors would be happy to show you spinning.
Regards MF26
Regards MF26