Orbiting on Final

[Mariner9]

Now now you two, play nicely or you'll annoy the quality of post police

PS:

don't try to land with another aircraft on the runway, unless you can be sure you have room to do so.

and only if you have got "Land after" clearance from an ATCO

[Dave Gittins]

An intersting thread and how it has developed sonce I had me lunch yesterday.

I still say (see post #2) that an orbit should be a plain simple thing to achieve safely and I have been asked to do loads for traffic separation at ATC fields. At A/G and FISO fields I have done them as well - usually because some other guy has done something unexpected like an early downwind to base turn when I am already on a longer final. I have used my Mk 1 eyeball to check it's safe and announced that I am orbitting in present position to maintain traffic separation.

AFAI can see this most unfortunate accident was because the poor lad got way out of his comfort zone. It all started when ATC told him to backtrack and that threw him. I don't think he ever recovered his nerve after that.

I was surprised that he had soloed before he did air law. As that is usually first, no doubt at all (in my mind) that he hadn't done R/T.

This is a horrble examople of a perfectly good pilot doing consitent circuits, getting the encouragment of going solo, but without (said with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight) the deeper knowledge to understand and deal with the slightly less straight forward than a text book circuit.

[mm_flynn]

An interesting range of experiences on orbits. I have been asked to orbit on downwind, at the downwind to base turn and before entering the ATZ - but never on final.

I have had my share of tight approaches where the guy in front isn't going to clear - other than making sure I am at 1.3Vso making gentle S turns and being mentally geared for a go around the whole way down - I watch until it is clear the gap isn't going to happen and then am on the go. I have never thought about doing a 360 in something like landing configuration at say 400 ft and would reject the request in favour of a go around any day. A few minutes wasted but able to stay right in the mental mindset for landing (i.e. assuming you are not).

Possibly influenced by my first solo land away - I was cleared to land after the departing twin - who promptly spit clouds of black smoke and engine bits! My instructors words prior to me going off were "if there is anything you don't like about the landing then - full power, pitch up, clean up and do the pattern again" and that is exactly what I did.

[Lucy Lastic]

D_Squadron

Now I'm really confused. Comes from having a blonde moment, I suppose.

At the airfields I fly at, there are many non-radio aircraft. Orbiting on finals is tantamount to suicide.

Going into a big airfield with ATCOs and if someone had said to me 'Hold Position' whilst on finals it would have been clear that they had misunderstood the situation. That is not an acceptable piece of RT for that stage of flight.

In my view I still think you should have gone around.

[IO540]

I wonder if anybody is going to have a word with the instructor? If I was teaching somebody to fly I would make sure they know that when they are off solo they don't do anything they are unhappy about; to hell with ATC.

As I've said before, I don't like the whole way the PPL is taught. You spend hours banging circuits (which most normal people really dislike, due to the intense pressure), and there is a lot of pressure to go solo but that solo circuit actually does absolutely nothing for your level of competence. If I was teaching somebody I care about to fly I would not let them go solo until they were really at home with everything. Then, going solo is a non-event and there is no need to stay in the circuit - you may as well go somewhere for real.

One reason for circuits is to teach the touch and go. In reality one almost never does that. I've had to do a few go-arounds (all of them due to previous traffic not clearing in time, or somebody entering the runway) but once the wheels are on the ground the safest objective is to STOP. A departure from the landing config is highly unsafe.

[microlight AV8R]

I have awaited this report with interest as the accident happened shortly after I first went solo. My first inclination was to suspect that the aircraft had stalled as it turned base leg onto final. In the end it was a similar problem I suppose. My instructor haunts me every time I fly " watch your speed!" was his most common advice in the landing configuration (Eurostar).
I am particularly disturbed by two aspects:

1. After being cleared to land (#1) the Cessna was asked to turn away when on final. I would never expect an aircraft ahead of me on approach to a runway to have to alter course to accomodate me. (Except if an emergency had been declared). I had it hammered into me that every landing is a go around unless everything is spot on. the observations regarding ATC practice seem reasonable and , hopefully, address this concern particularly with regard to overloading an inexperienced pilot.

2. hours logged in previous 28 days - 4 hours !!! I know that the weather can cause havoc to a training programme, but this seems to exemplify just how most PPL training is subject to cash flow and/or time available for the task. I strongly believe that a more concentrated series of lessons helps you keep on top of the task, that was certainly the case for me.

I went solo after about 20 hrs at the grand age of 46. I wasn't in any particular hurry to get through that loop, every moment in the air with or without my instructor from beginning to end was brilliant.

One last thought... This terrible accident seems to justify the phrase "Aviate, navigate, communicate".

Fly safe everybody.

[BackPacker]

A departure from the landing config is highly unsafe.

With all the instructor I had, touch and gos were always performed like this:
- Bring aircraft in the landing configuration (L/D flaps, carb heat on)
- Land the aircraft
- With idle power, bring aircraft back to centerline, and bring aircraft in the take-off configuration (T/O flaps, carb heat off)
- Once stable on the centerline and in the take-off config
- Full power
- Rotate at Vr

Obviously, if you forget to retract flaps or select carb heat off, you're in for a lot of surprise.

The most difficult manoeuvre is actually the go-around, where you've got to do this in the air without losing altitude.

[Chilli Monster]

Originally Posted by microlight AV8R

After being cleared to land (#1) the Cessna was asked to turn away when on final.

At no point was the Cessna cleared to land.

[LN-ATC]

Why are they? If I've got 1 or 2 commercial inbounds there's nothing wrong with extending the light aircraft downwind, tell him who he's following and remind him of the number of miles recommended spacing. The relative speeds are such that the C152 (forf example) won't go that far downwind.

I agree with BackPacker.

If I have 3 airliners on the ILS, and 3 airliners taxing out, I would definitely not extend downwind leg for a light aircraft to come in behind the last one on the ILS. It is so much easier to keep circuit traffic close to the airport. Right hand orbits (when left hand circuit) abeam threshold is perfect in my opinion. The circuit aircraft would probably be overtaken by the next batch of arrivals if extending it's downwind to 10 NM. Extending downwind works better if all aircraft are doing equal speeds.

We have had a few TCAS problems with light aircraft on extended downwind. Airliner pilots don't seem to like "opposite" traffic at same level on 3 miles final...

[Chilli Monster]

Funnily enough if I had 3 on the approach and 3 taxying out I'd do exactly the same - but that wasn't what I said the traffic situation was in my example

Every scenario is different, you work the traffic accordingly. Do it properly you don't even get TCAS alerts

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Personally I would go around and tell ATC that I was doing so.

I would now. But on second solo?? The student had quite likely had exactly no training or experience of refusing an ATC instruction and wouldn't have had a clue as to how to go about it or even whether it was "allowed".

[Final 3 Greens]

G-EMMA

As a low hours student PPL having just read the report, if someone told me to turn left and fly north during finals I would most likely reply WTF you on about, can not comply, going around.

I'm sure that you would, then again you are 40 and the lad was 16 - a big difference in how you react to authority figures.

Having read the whole report, it is so sad - just a lot of holes in the cheese lining up.

I still think that all ATCOs should do PPL training, so that they can be more aware of the issues that arise.

I have not idea if the ATCs involved here did or didn't, I am just thinking as a general principle.

[172driver]

FINAL 3 if you read the report you will find that both ATCOs held PPLs...

What has not been discussed here so far, is the situation London Center (LTCC) put the Southend ATCOs in by handing them the Meridian with 8 miles (or about 2 minutes) to run. Frankly, this isn't great and put both Southend controllers in a tight spot.

It's a sad story and - alas - one where really all the holes in the cheese lined up

[Contacttower]

I would have thought that it in the heat of the moment, if you're trying to deconflict traffic one's ability to empathise with the pilot in question and give due consideration to experience goes out the window, no matter how much PPL training as an ATCO you've had.

[IO540]

But on second solo?? The student had quite likely had exactly no training or experience of refusing an ATC instruction and wouldn't have had a clue as to how to go about it or even whether it was "allowed".

That's the point I was hoping to make in the rest of my post, about the stupidity in which PPL training is done.

However, I don't see that it is smart to send somebody on a solo flight with "exactly no training or experience of refusing an ATC instruction". These (flying the plane and to hell with doing stuff you can't do) are pretty basic things.

[172driver]

G-EMMA, herein exactly lies the problem many, many pilots have in real world flying. If dealing with ATC doesn't become second nature - and it only will if you start with it early - then you will probably always have problems with it. Might be one of the reasons also, why so many people give up shortly after having attained their PPL - unless you really enjoy local bimbles (or aeros), you will have to deal with ATC if you want to do any meaningful flying, i.e. touring. Now, being afraid of doing so doesn't really help matters along....

[fireflybob]

Whenever I send early solos I am standing in the tower next to the controller!

I know rules may be different elsewhere but if I cannot be in the tower watching I would not send him/her!

All my sympathies go out to all concerned in the Southend tragedy especially the instructor who authorised.

I have not read the full report yet but students should be fit and trained in every respect for the task on the day. This is a huge responsibility for the instructor but this is, in my opinion, exactly what the job is all about. You can go on as long as you like about external circumstances such as ATC instructions, the weather, traffic conditions etc but before you send early solos the one thing you are looking for is that the student has enough spare capacity to make a decision and extricate himself from a situation which may require a go around or recovery from incipient stall/spin, for example. Rather than being able to fly a good approach and landing every time I am looking to the student being able to recognise an approach which is going wrong and make a decision to go around.

Just scanned the report - whichever way you look at it this was accident was primarily a stall/spin near the ground. I find the report quite disappointing with lots of referral to the ATC rules and little comment on the flying training aspects. S##t sometimes happens but I also was quite shocked to see this student's lack of recency in the last 28 days. For one reason or another the student failed to recognise the signs of an approaching stall, the symptoms of the full stall and failed to recover! I know I may have to take the brickbats for this but sometimes the truth hurts - this points to a lack of training in stall/spin awareness etc and I feel the ATC aspect is just al oad of hot air!

My hallucination is that a lot of flying training now suffers from the "tick in the box mentality". It's become a list of things to do etc. When I reflect on my father who was a veteran instructor/examiner the one thing he taught more than anything else was an "attitude" rather than conforming to a set of "rules".

[Final 3 Greens]

G-EMMA

Thanks for your response - as someone who has a psychology background, I still believe that your view of ATC would be influenced by rather more life experience, even though you may not realise this ;-)

Good luck with the rest of your PPL and I hope that Stebbing is not too saturated after all the rain I see the BBC reporting.

Fireflybob

Interesting point about spare capacity - didn't an Avianca 707 run out of gas at NYC?

How did 3 commercial flight deck get into that position?

I do understand why you feel the need to stand next to the controller, so that you can intervene if necessary. I would have appreciated that when flying solo for the first few times

I guess that the bottom line is that we all take a risk when we fly and if the holes line up, we pay the piper.

Sad when it happens at 16 though.

[172driver]

G-EMMA your comment underscores what I've said earlier re ATC. The exchanges in the report are perfectly normal in real world flying and the earlier in your training you get exposed to that, the better it is. To me it appears that the backtrack instruction totally threw the poor soul and he never really recovered his composure after that.

You are, of course, absolutely correct in saying 'whatever happens, fly the bl**dy airplane'.

[Final 3 Greens]

For the benefit of any prospective students reading, I disagree with G-EMMA's downside view of learning to fly under ATC and with the very greatest of respect, do not think that a student pilot has enough experience to have a really considered opinion on the relative merits of learning in an ATC environment versus an A/G..

From a PPL with a few hundred hours (relatively inexperienced as these things go), I believe that there are pros and cons in an ATC, AFIS and A/G environment.

Out of the these, I find A/G to be potentially the most challenging at times, with non radio traffic, pilots discretion and a number of other factors that make it (at least for me) potentially volatile and thus requiring higher levels of situational awareness, e.g. aircraft joining by run and breaks.

Under ATC, there is generally more order and the r/t traffic is generally more predictable.

I learned at an ATC field, but my instructor made sure that I got lots of A/G experience and I found this a good balance.

Whichever environment you learn to fly in, you will need to be up to speed with the others and they all have their foibles.