Orbiting on Final
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I'm with F3G here.
I trained at an ATC airfield. A nice controlled environment where nothing unexpected was supposed to happen (people turning up in the wrong part of the circuit unexpected, people cutting in front of you on final etc), and when something unexpected did happen ATC sorted it out and told you what to do.
And, at one point (I think it was my "first" solo on retraining after not flying for 13 years) when ATC wanted me to orbit on downwind, they first asked my instructor whether I could cope with this, and if he'd said "no" they would have dealt with their problem in some other way (eg by sending the heavy or whatever it was around).
The downside of training at an ATC airfield is of course that I still get a bit concerned when entering the wild wild west of a busy circuit at an uncontrolled field.
I trained at an ATC airfield. A nice controlled environment where nothing unexpected was supposed to happen (people turning up in the wrong part of the circuit unexpected, people cutting in front of you on final etc), and when something unexpected did happen ATC sorted it out and told you what to do.
And, at one point (I think it was my "first" solo on retraining after not flying for 13 years) when ATC wanted me to orbit on downwind, they first asked my instructor whether I could cope with this, and if he'd said "no" they would have dealt with their problem in some other way (eg by sending the heavy or whatever it was around).
The downside of training at an ATC airfield is of course that I still get a bit concerned when entering the wild wild west of a busy circuit at an uncontrolled field.
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G-EMMA
Just continue with your training wherever it is. The most important thing is to keep consistency, and moving between airfield types only adds to confusion.
When you start your cross-country flights you will see major differences in RT between airfields. Just concentrate on being clear and never be afraid to ask for clarification.
I'm not happy about some of the posts where they say that they like to have ATC sort things out for them. In the terms expressed, and for low-hour pilots it does have a lot to commend it.
But it can also lead to difficulties further down the line, as, as pilots, we have to learn to think for ourselves and reject clearances that we consider unsafe.
Just continue with your training wherever it is. The most important thing is to keep consistency, and moving between airfield types only adds to confusion.
When you start your cross-country flights you will see major differences in RT between airfields. Just concentrate on being clear and never be afraid to ask for clarification.
I'm not happy about some of the posts where they say that they like to have ATC sort things out for them. In the terms expressed, and for low-hour pilots it does have a lot to commend it.
But it can also lead to difficulties further down the line, as, as pilots, we have to learn to think for ourselves and reject clearances that we consider unsafe.
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G-EMMA.
Don't even think about it !
This report shows that even experienced, professional people (A.T.C. in this case) can find it demanding trying to juggle a multitude of different aircraft types at once. They react in the same way as pilots when their workload starts to rise. Hence the criticisms that you read here regarding their instructions to the Cessna.
I learnt to fly at Thruxton and believe it to be ideal for P.P.L. training. It has only A/G but they are very good at their job. One very rarely sees situations developing that could be dangerous unlike the circus of a busy A.T.C. airfield that has P.P.L. training taking place along side commercial operations. My view is that you have made the right decision about your training base. I'm sure that you are perfectly capable of making an orbit at low level, but let's not tempt the devil for a while, at least.
If you find yourself on final in a situation that you don't like, forget whether you are at an A.T.C. airfield or not. Take control of the situation and TELL THEM you are going around. Concentrate on flying the aeroplane until you have created some spare capacity for yourself and then worry about fitting into the traffic pattern.
Don't even think about it !
This report shows that even experienced, professional people (A.T.C. in this case) can find it demanding trying to juggle a multitude of different aircraft types at once. They react in the same way as pilots when their workload starts to rise. Hence the criticisms that you read here regarding their instructions to the Cessna.
I learnt to fly at Thruxton and believe it to be ideal for P.P.L. training. It has only A/G but they are very good at their job. One very rarely sees situations developing that could be dangerous unlike the circus of a busy A.T.C. airfield that has P.P.L. training taking place along side commercial operations. My view is that you have made the right decision about your training base. I'm sure that you are perfectly capable of making an orbit at low level, but let's not tempt the devil for a while, at least.
If you find yourself on final in a situation that you don't like, forget whether you are at an A.T.C. airfield or not. Take control of the situation and TELL THEM you are going around. Concentrate on flying the aeroplane until you have created some spare capacity for yourself and then worry about fitting into the traffic pattern.
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G-Emma,
Just my personal opinion, but FWIW I disagree with F3G's disagreement, precisely because he considers A/G fields to be the most challenging ...
I learned at a busy, regional airport, with full ATC and huge hard runways.
If I had to do it all over again, I would without a second's hesitation learn from the shortest grass field legally available, with an A/G.
You're learning to fly : you've already had a considerable amount of experience in talking ...
I know there are those who have learned to fly at small fields who are terrified of having to enter ATC domains, and I've never understood why. Your training will provide enough of the basic "patter" to allow you to enter and transit ATC zones, and in my experience, most ATC is extremely helpful to those who sound a little "new" to the game (OK, there are exceptions, but not that many).
You, on the other hand, will never have to worry about joining a busy circuit at an uncontrolled field, which scared me positively witless (that's a spelling mistake
) the first time I had to do it.
I reckon you've got it the right way around - good luck with your PPL !
FF
Just my personal opinion, but FWIW I disagree with F3G's disagreement, precisely because he considers A/G fields to be the most challenging ...
I learned at a busy, regional airport, with full ATC and huge hard runways.
If I had to do it all over again, I would without a second's hesitation learn from the shortest grass field legally available, with an A/G.
You're learning to fly : you've already had a considerable amount of experience in talking ...
I know there are those who have learned to fly at small fields who are terrified of having to enter ATC domains, and I've never understood why. Your training will provide enough of the basic "patter" to allow you to enter and transit ATC zones, and in my experience, most ATC is extremely helpful to those who sound a little "new" to the game (OK, there are exceptions, but not that many).
You, on the other hand, will never have to worry about joining a busy circuit at an uncontrolled field, which scared me positively witless (that's a spelling mistake
) the first time I had to do it. I reckon you've got it the right way around - good luck with your PPL !
FF
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Originally Posted by a4fly
One very rarely sees situations developing that could be dangerous unlike the circus of a busy A.T.C. airfield that has P.P.L. training taking place along side commercial operations.
G-EMMA
Consistency in school and instructors is a far better reason for school selection than what type of airfield it's situated on. Stick with it, there's plenty of time to go to the bigger places later. Keep enjoying it - that's the main thing
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One very rarely sees situations developing that could be dangerous unlike the circus of a busy A.T.C. airfield that has P.P.L. training taking place along side commercial operations.
I have to say that in my experience A/G airfields are much more challenging; on a busy Sunday afternoon dozens of planes from ultralights to twins wizz round and round all at different speeds, some trying to do glide approaches, some at 600ft, some at 800ft, all trying to land on the same 800m strip of grass, half don't even have radios. Occasionally military aircraft invade the ATZ, there are a mix of crosswind, base and overhead joins, sometimes it does seem like death on every corner. Having been cut up on finals on several occasions by non-radio cubs and the like I rather suspect that A/G airfields are much more dangerous from a traffic spacing point of view.
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Much depends on how busy the place is.
I think most people would prefer a quiet field without any "controllers" for both learning and normal operations.
In reality there are few always-quiet fields (in the UK) where ab initio training can be done legally.
Flight training (circuit banging specifically) is a core money making activity for any GA field and this is why they tend to go overboard. The eight (yes 8) fixed wing schools that once existed at Shoreham is a great example. Of course they went bust regularly, often amid rather amusing (not amusing for the students who lost money) circumstances.
I still dread having to fly into say Stapleford on a nice Sunday, because it is such a total free for all, with a lot of crazy flying done by planes with instructors in them. At such times, ATC would be IMHO great. The rest of the time, you probably don't want ATC. OTOH if the field has gone overboard with flying schools then it will be hellishly busy the whole time.
However, if you learn at a quiet field without ATC (say, by having lessons only on weekdays) then you are likely to dread going to fields that have ATC. I see this in so many pilots. In turn, this wipes out a huge chunk of your mission capability because just about any flight abroad will involve going to a field with ATC, and quite often a big one.
I think most people would prefer a quiet field without any "controllers" for both learning and normal operations.
In reality there are few always-quiet fields (in the UK) where ab initio training can be done legally.
Flight training (circuit banging specifically) is a core money making activity for any GA field and this is why they tend to go overboard. The eight (yes 8) fixed wing schools that once existed at Shoreham is a great example. Of course they went bust regularly, often amid rather amusing (not amusing for the students who lost money) circumstances.
I still dread having to fly into say Stapleford on a nice Sunday, because it is such a total free for all, with a lot of crazy flying done by planes with instructors in them. At such times, ATC would be IMHO great. The rest of the time, you probably don't want ATC. OTOH if the field has gone overboard with flying schools then it will be hellishly busy the whole time.
However, if you learn at a quiet field without ATC (say, by having lessons only on weekdays) then you are likely to dread going to fields that have ATC. I see this in so many pilots. In turn, this wipes out a huge chunk of your mission capability because just about any flight abroad will involve going to a field with ATC, and quite often a big one.
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Chilli Monster.
You ask for proof but accept (by using the word "apart") that my point may have had a bearing on this incident. Surely only one accident is enough proof?
To clarify, I should have said "some" busy A.T.C. airfields. I certainly didn't want to imply that all airfields with full A.T.C. are circus-like, they are not. I would prefer not to name specific airfields/airports but some of the worst horrors seem to happen at places where there is a large disparity of aircraft types. These places have good controllers trying to do a difficult job.
It is straying from the point, but is it really necessary to put controllers under the sort of pressure that this chap was under? 737s, turboprops, goodness knows what else don't mix with student pilots with 1 solo under their belt ( my view, of course).
Contacttower.
Valid point but most aircraft at an A/G airfield can fly at similar speeds, spacing becomes much more difficult when jets and props. mix. That's without the consideration of wake seperation.
You ask for proof but accept (by using the word "apart") that my point may have had a bearing on this incident. Surely only one accident is enough proof?
To clarify, I should have said "some" busy A.T.C. airfields. I certainly didn't want to imply that all airfields with full A.T.C. are circus-like, they are not. I would prefer not to name specific airfields/airports but some of the worst horrors seem to happen at places where there is a large disparity of aircraft types. These places have good controllers trying to do a difficult job.
It is straying from the point, but is it really necessary to put controllers under the sort of pressure that this chap was under? 737s, turboprops, goodness knows what else don't mix with student pilots with 1 solo under their belt ( my view, of course).
Contacttower.
Valid point but most aircraft at an A/G airfield can fly at similar speeds, spacing becomes much more difficult when jets and props. mix. That's without the consideration of wake seperation.
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G-EMMA
Maybe as a student I had a better capacity for making the right choice for me than F3G credited me for
I never commented on your particular personal choice, if you read your post #67 , you talk in the 3rd person in a way that reads, at least to me, as if you are generalizing, thus my response.
No doubt intuitively you made a good choice and there are upsides for learning on a short grass field, e.g. you will be good on speed control on final and not intimidated by a shortish grass strip, because you can put the aeroplane down accurately.
However, I really don't think you have the necessary knowledge to say which is the best choice - I know I certainly don't, as I see pros and cons both ways.
I switched half way through my course (due to relocation) and did my first 20 hours on a busy short rough strip, finishing off a a mile of tarmac/ATC airport, where I shared the circuit with everything from a C150 to a BAe 146 or 1-11.
I know that this unusual mixture suited me and improved my airmanship, but I wouldn't put it forward as a general approach to training.
Maybe as a student I had a better capacity for making the right choice for me than F3G credited me for
I never commented on your particular personal choice, if you read your post #67 , you talk in the 3rd person in a way that reads, at least to me, as if you are generalizing, thus my response.
No doubt intuitively you made a good choice and there are upsides for learning on a short grass field, e.g. you will be good on speed control on final and not intimidated by a shortish grass strip, because you can put the aeroplane down accurately.
However, I really don't think you have the necessary knowledge to say which is the best choice - I know I certainly don't, as I see pros and cons both ways.
I switched half way through my course (due to relocation) and did my first 20 hours on a busy short rough strip, finishing off a a mile of tarmac/ATC airport, where I shared the circuit with everything from a C150 to a BAe 146 or 1-11.
I know that this unusual mixture suited me and improved my airmanship, but I wouldn't put it forward as a general approach to training.
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It is straying from the point, but is it really necessary to put controllers under the sort of pressure that this chap was under? 737s, turboprops, goodness knows what else don't mix with student pilots with 1 solo under their belt .......
) seem to feel the need to kick out flying training, but others like Exter, Bournemouth which both handle a lot more traffic than Southend seem to manage.
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>>>>Some airports (like EGHI ) seem to feel the need to kick out flying training, but others like Exter, Bournemouth which both handle a lot more traffic than Southend seem to manage.<<<<<
I'm not sure that Exeter really manage. They send a lot of stuff elsewhere these days, and it's only going to get worse as the commercial movements grow
I'm not sure that Exeter really manage. They send a lot of stuff elsewhere these days, and it's only going to get worse as the commercial movements grow
Fly Conventional Gear
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and it's only going to get worse as the commercial movements grow
Me too
Happened to m once many years ago on a fly in to Lakenheath one sat' morning, it was ok as not at short final & actually quite fun but I wouldn't recommend it & wouldn't be happy to do the same nowadays being older & hopefully a tad wiser,
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>>>>It's a shame, I remember thinking last year how reasonable the landing fees were...<<<<<
You are joking! Try landing after 19.00hrs local on a nice summers day!!!
They are also one of the few airports who haven't signed up to the Strasser campaign (ie waiving landing fees in the event of a genuine weather diversion)
You are joking! Try landing after 19.00hrs local on a nice summers day!!!
They are also one of the few airports who haven't signed up to the Strasser campaign (ie waiving landing fees in the event of a genuine weather diversion)
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Coming in late on this thread but, yes, I have had an orbit request on final at Jersey. Due to a hang-up with a departing commercial. Other aircraft in circuit who were also orbiting and go-around not really feasible as I would then have been in conflict with either said commercial or one of the other GA's in the circuit.
No real issue - bit bumpy off 27 at 500' odd - rate 1 turn & no big deal, just pretty unusual. But orbits at Jersey (Corbiere, Noirmont or even mid-downwind) are not at all unusual - even when doing your NR training - you just concentrate & sweat more
Doing it on 2nd solo - hmmm, probably not a good move if you aren't used to performing tidy orbits, especially below circuit height.
No real issue - bit bumpy off 27 at 500' odd - rate 1 turn & no big deal, just pretty unusual. But orbits at Jersey (Corbiere, Noirmont or even mid-downwind) are not at all unusual - even when doing your NR training - you just concentrate & sweat more
Doing it on 2nd solo - hmmm, probably not a good move if you aren't used to performing tidy orbits, especially below circuit height.
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I have read the report and most of the comments on this thread.
I am unable to express the sadness I feel that the young man should have lost his life in this accident.
I was interested to read that the investigators tested a similiar aircraft.
"As is stalled the example aircraft rolled quickly to the left adopting a bank angle of 60 degress within one second, simultaneously the nose dropped approx. 45 degrees below the horizon and a high rate of descent developed .. .. .." They go on to discuss the recovery.
Some training aircraft are benign in the stall. They mush down and must be really forced into dropping a wing.
This aircraft did not fall into that category.
The events before may have contributed to the reasons why the pilot stalled the aircraft, but the accident did not become unavoidable until the pilot found he did not have the skills to recover.
Given the characteristics of this aircraft, I wonder whether in the training enviroment more time needs to be spent on stalls and recovery in this type than in other types. Recovering from a pronounced wing drop at this point in your training has to be completely automatic. It is surprising when you do aeros with pilots who havent flown them before how poor their recovery skills from a wing drop and incipient spin are, and yet they will do just fine in anything benign that nods a nose down and dips a wing gently - and they may have several hundred hours or more.
I appreciate the aircraft would seem to have been at only around 300 feet when it stalled so recovery would always have been a challenge. However another pilot on another day might find himself with more height on his side and yet still not have the skills to recover.
I am unable to express the sadness I feel that the young man should have lost his life in this accident.
I was interested to read that the investigators tested a similiar aircraft.
"As is stalled the example aircraft rolled quickly to the left adopting a bank angle of 60 degress within one second, simultaneously the nose dropped approx. 45 degrees below the horizon and a high rate of descent developed .. .. .." They go on to discuss the recovery.
Some training aircraft are benign in the stall. They mush down and must be really forced into dropping a wing.
This aircraft did not fall into that category.
The events before may have contributed to the reasons why the pilot stalled the aircraft, but the accident did not become unavoidable until the pilot found he did not have the skills to recover.
Given the characteristics of this aircraft, I wonder whether in the training enviroment more time needs to be spent on stalls and recovery in this type than in other types. Recovering from a pronounced wing drop at this point in your training has to be completely automatic. It is surprising when you do aeros with pilots who havent flown them before how poor their recovery skills from a wing drop and incipient spin are, and yet they will do just fine in anything benign that nods a nose down and dips a wing gently - and they may have several hundred hours or more.
I appreciate the aircraft would seem to have been at only around 300 feet when it stalled so recovery would always have been a challenge. However another pilot on another day might find himself with more height on his side and yet still not have the skills to recover.
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You are joking! Try landing after 19.00hrs local on a nice summers day!!!
Some training aircraft are benign in the stall. They mush down and must be really forced into dropping a wing. This aircraft did not fall into that category.
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I was a bit suprised to hear the C150 behaved like this, certainly the C152 has always had pretty good stall behaviour, and its a safe aircraft to teach spinning in
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Originally Posted by a4fly
but is it really necessary to put controllers under the sort of pressure that this chap was under? 737s, turboprops, goodness knows what else don't mix with student pilots with 1 solo under their belt ( my view, of course).
The student wouldn't have been sent solo unless he'd proved he could integrate with other traffic. It's no different to where I work, where we have an even greater mix of traffic - the instructors know that and we trust their judgement. It's up to us, as ATCO's to keep things standard for pilots no matter what their experience levels - it didn't happen here. THAT was the problem - nothing else.
