Orbiting on Final
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Saturday at LFAC
I was instructed to orbit on final for runway 14.....
1 ahead, a bit lower (and slower) than me, but rather than go around and do a full circuit, ATC asked me to do a orbit
so I left the gear down in the Aztec, I only had about 20 degrees of flap selected, so I increased power, accelerated to 120 mph, and did the orbit. If I had not felt it was safe to do, then I would have gone around.
there is a difference between orbiting in such situations at a controlled field and doing orbits on final where there is only an A/G.
If people do not feel it is safe to do as instructed, they should say say so. Sadness here is that the young student might not have had the confidence to tell the ATCO that he was going to disregard the instructions.
1 ahead, a bit lower (and slower) than me, but rather than go around and do a full circuit, ATC asked me to do a orbit
so I left the gear down in the Aztec, I only had about 20 degrees of flap selected, so I increased power, accelerated to 120 mph, and did the orbit. If I had not felt it was safe to do, then I would have gone around.
there is a difference between orbiting in such situations at a controlled field and doing orbits on final where there is only an A/G.
If people do not feel it is safe to do as instructed, they should say say so. Sadness here is that the young student might not have had the confidence to tell the ATCO that he was going to disregard the instructions.
Saturday at LFAC...
I was instructed to orbit on final for runway 14.
I was instructed to orbit on final for runway 14.
Or me, for that matter.Agree with what you say, of course.
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Lowest 'go-around' !!
We have seen some interesting comments on orbits and go around instructions on Final.
Usually between 300 and 500ft and most have read the Southend tragedy.
Saturday at an anon military airfield I got a go-around instruction from ATC.
Very late with runway clear ahead and no reason given by the controller(such as fast a/c behind' There was nothing behind.
Only unusual thing about this is that I was past the threshold wilth full 40 flap and about to flare. Power, Pitch, Flap retract ,and Roll and all below 100ft. to avoid an imaginary fast jet on very short final
Don't these controllers ever read the accidents reports?
We have seen some interesting comments on orbits and go around instructions on Final.
Usually between 300 and 500ft and most have read the Southend tragedy.
Saturday at an anon military airfield I got a go-around instruction from ATC.
Very late with runway clear ahead and no reason given by the controller(such as fast a/c behind' There was nothing behind.
Only unusual thing about this is that I was past the threshold wilth full 40 flap and about to flare. Power, Pitch, Flap retract ,and Roll and all below 100ft. to avoid an imaginary fast jet on very short final
Don't these controllers ever read the accidents reports?
I have been reflecting on this accident as one does sometimes.
The report does not, I think, comment on the adequacy of the stall warning system in the aircraft. Psychologists have established that the first sense which tends to go when humans (pilots) become overloaded is the sense of hearing. Part of CRM training with the airlines these days highlights this fact since a pilot may become so engrossed in the task that he fails to hear the other pilot making a comment on the operation. (In which case, digressing slightly, said monitoring pilot may have to touch flying pilot to break his pattern and draw attention to what is going on).
Aircraft which have insufficient aerodynamic warning of stall must be fitted with (serviceable) artificial stall warning systems. All the C150/152 type aircraft I have flown are fitted with a "reed" system which will sound as the stalling angle of attack is approached. The efficacy of this system sometimes varies between individual aircraft. Maybe it's time to review the stall warning systems fitted to light aircraft and/or install some other warning system such as a warning light or a louder klaxon of some description.
So in summary my simple questions are:- a) Did the stall warning system operate but (more significantly) b) was the pilot aware that the system was giving a warning?
PS - Mods maybe some consideration to merging this thread about the same accident which is on ATC Issues?
The report does not, I think, comment on the adequacy of the stall warning system in the aircraft. Psychologists have established that the first sense which tends to go when humans (pilots) become overloaded is the sense of hearing. Part of CRM training with the airlines these days highlights this fact since a pilot may become so engrossed in the task that he fails to hear the other pilot making a comment on the operation. (In which case, digressing slightly, said monitoring pilot may have to touch flying pilot to break his pattern and draw attention to what is going on).
Aircraft which have insufficient aerodynamic warning of stall must be fitted with (serviceable) artificial stall warning systems. All the C150/152 type aircraft I have flown are fitted with a "reed" system which will sound as the stalling angle of attack is approached. The efficacy of this system sometimes varies between individual aircraft. Maybe it's time to review the stall warning systems fitted to light aircraft and/or install some other warning system such as a warning light or a louder klaxon of some description.
So in summary my simple questions are:- a) Did the stall warning system operate but (more significantly) b) was the pilot aware that the system was giving a warning?
PS - Mods maybe some consideration to merging this thread about the same accident which is on ATC Issues?
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I would agree 3G
I think any clearance is able to be cancelled, rescinded or whatever if there is a good valid safety reasons for so doing. (and hopefully a reason given to the pilot for the enforced change of plan)
I think any clearance is able to be cancelled, rescinded or whatever if there is a good valid safety reasons for so doing. (and hopefully a reason given to the pilot for the enforced change of plan)
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Some of the ATCOs here care to comment ? AFAIK, other than in an emergency or if given as conditional ('cleared to land after the XYZ has vacated' - I get these quite often), once cleared to land, that's it.
From a practical POV there's also a big difference between canceling / amending a, say, transit through CAS clearance and doing same on short final where the a/c is configured for landing (and, of course, a go-around).
Btw, I have had these 'orbits' a number of times, but never, ever, at such a late stage.
From a practical POV there's also a big difference between canceling / amending a, say, transit through CAS clearance and doing same on short final where the a/c is configured for landing (and, of course, a go-around).
Btw, I have had these 'orbits' a number of times, but never, ever, at such a late stage.
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In a general sense ATC can change your clearance anytime they need to. Think of a couple of situations (all of these have happened to me or people I know)
1 - You are "Clear to land number 4 behind the crossing G4" - and the timing doesn't work so the G4 is going to be whistling through your runway as you land.
2 - You are "Clear to Land, number one" 30 miles out and in the 10 minutes it takes to get there deer set up camp on the runway
3 - You are on short final and clear to land, the airport has an earthquake
4 - You are "Clear to land behind the departing..." who then aborts the takeoff.
last one - only read about this one - several different times
5 - You are clear to land and someone gets lost and drives onto the runway.
I would expect ATC in everyone of these conditions to tell me to go around (and hopefully to give me a clue as to why)
1 - You are "Clear to land number 4 behind the crossing G4" - and the timing doesn't work so the G4 is going to be whistling through your runway as you land.
2 - You are "Clear to Land, number one" 30 miles out and in the 10 minutes it takes to get there deer set up camp on the runway
3 - You are on short final and clear to land, the airport has an earthquake
4 - You are "Clear to land behind the departing..." who then aborts the takeoff.
last one - only read about this one - several different times
5 - You are clear to land and someone gets lost and drives onto the runway.
I would expect ATC in everyone of these conditions to tell me to go around (and hopefully to give me a clue as to why)
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Final 3, we are talking about two different things here: orbit and go-around. Until corrected by an ATCO I stand by what I said (however including the conditional/emergency situation which I didn't include in my first post but should have done). In turnipheads description of events neither was present.....
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5 - You are clear to land and someone gets lost and drives onto the runway.
Had this one! A German turboprop landed at Southend on 24, when I was approaching for 06 - night, zero wind unlimited viz.
However, he turned off the runway to the right and got lost in the hangar area, instead of left onto the apron.
It was quite funny, as the controller couldn't see what had happened and I reported his position to the controller who was a bit surprised.
To cut a long story short, the pilot eventually found his way out of the hangar area and went trundling back to wards the apron, getting veeeery close to the runway.
Verbal comms were not the best by this stage and the controller (quite sensibly) sent me on my way from about 100 feet whilst he sorted out the other aircraft
So did a nice tight circuit and landed a few minutes later. Good call by the controller.
Had this one! A German turboprop landed at Southend on 24, when I was approaching for 06 - night, zero wind unlimited viz.
However, he turned off the runway to the right and got lost in the hangar area, instead of left onto the apron.
It was quite funny, as the controller couldn't see what had happened and I reported his position to the controller who was a bit surprised.
To cut a long story short, the pilot eventually found his way out of the hangar area and went trundling back to wards the apron, getting veeeery close to the runway.
Verbal comms were not the best by this stage and the controller (quite sensibly) sent me on my way from about 100 feet whilst he sorted out the other aircraft
So did a nice tight circuit and landed a few minutes later. Good call by the controller.
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As a student pilot this is a relevant and useful thread with a lot of issues raised. Unfortunately these points are raised as a result of a tragedy and my sympathies go out to the student pilots family and friends.
- I fly out of a busy Class D airport in the States (not a flying farm in Florida). First solo was on Saturday. Prior to my solo departure I informed the tower that I am on a student solo. I noticed the controller communications with me for the length of my solo was slower and clearer than usual.
They also cannot ask a student solo to perform certain maneuvres in the pattern (hence the reason you tell them). S-turns for spacing is one and I'm sure an orbit (or 360) would be out of the question. If I felt uncomfortable with any instructions I would have no hesitiation in informing them of my inability to perform and remind them I was on a student solo if necessary. Once in the air you are the PIC, not ATC. If you are unable then do not comply, fly the AC and communicate with them.
- Regarding learning to fly in a busy controlled airport. It's not a problem, you pick it up pretty quickley and also have someone else looking out for you when you are in their airspace (obviously you are not relying on them for collision avoidance but another set of eyes is always welcome!). Towered airports also have better services such as weather alerts, runway advisories etc. We depart the class D for practice maneuvres about 15 miles away so that's not an issue.
Plenty of non towered strips in the vacinity to practice that kind of flying too. Actually found it a little more difficult having to announce your position and intentions on a common frequency and not have ATC instuct you what to do! But you get used to it!! Both are good expericences...only drawback with a class D is holding short for departure for 10 minutes (doesn't happen very often!), but rubing shoulders with Learjets, 737's and A10's make up for that!!
- as far as clearance to land with an AC still on the runway, wouldn't expect to hear that ever. ATC will inform us be prepared for a go around in advance if there is a any kind of potential conflict on the RWY, instruct us to go around if necessary, or clear to land if the conflict is resolved. Of course, a pilot can always go around whenever he/she deems it necessary.
- I fly out of a busy Class D airport in the States (not a flying farm in Florida). First solo was on Saturday. Prior to my solo departure I informed the tower that I am on a student solo. I noticed the controller communications with me for the length of my solo was slower and clearer than usual.
They also cannot ask a student solo to perform certain maneuvres in the pattern (hence the reason you tell them). S-turns for spacing is one and I'm sure an orbit (or 360) would be out of the question. If I felt uncomfortable with any instructions I would have no hesitiation in informing them of my inability to perform and remind them I was on a student solo if necessary. Once in the air you are the PIC, not ATC. If you are unable then do not comply, fly the AC and communicate with them.
- Regarding learning to fly in a busy controlled airport. It's not a problem, you pick it up pretty quickley and also have someone else looking out for you when you are in their airspace (obviously you are not relying on them for collision avoidance but another set of eyes is always welcome!). Towered airports also have better services such as weather alerts, runway advisories etc. We depart the class D for practice maneuvres about 15 miles away so that's not an issue.
Plenty of non towered strips in the vacinity to practice that kind of flying too. Actually found it a little more difficult having to announce your position and intentions on a common frequency and not have ATC instuct you what to do! But you get used to it!! Both are good expericences...only drawback with a class D is holding short for departure for 10 minutes (doesn't happen very often!), but rubing shoulders with Learjets, 737's and A10's make up for that!!
- as far as clearance to land with an AC still on the runway, wouldn't expect to hear that ever. ATC will inform us be prepared for a go around in advance if there is a any kind of potential conflict on the RWY, instruct us to go around if necessary, or clear to land if the conflict is resolved. Of course, a pilot can always go around whenever he/she deems it necessary.
Last edited by UncleNobby; 16th Jul 2007 at 19:10.
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Lowest 'go-around' !!
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I remember some one telling me many years ago when I was worried about cross wind landings,
approach the landing on the basis that you are not going to land, right down to actually landing, so if you change your mind, you are only doing what you expected.
Its an approach that seems to work well .. .. ..
and if ATC instructs you to go around it is not too much of a surprise.
approach the landing on the basis that you are not going to land, right down to actually landing, so if you change your mind, you are only doing what you expected.
Its an approach that seems to work well .. .. ..
and if ATC instructs you to go around it is not too much of a surprise.
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ATC have cleared you to land. Then they see something to change that, and cancel the clearance and ask you to go around. No problem so far, and everyone is reasonably content. Then the pilot asks if he can do an orbit instead of a full go-around. ATC agree to this.
The pilot then cocks up a simple activity by not putting enough power on, leaving the flaps down, going slower and slower and, maybe, stalling and crashing into the ground.
We all know this has happened and that is why many instructors have a mantra - never orbit on finals.
But really, it is just basic flying, and a well trained pilot will do what is necessary to ensure that he maintains appropriate airspeed - putting on PLENTY of power - and I don't think we should train pilots to the lowest common denominator. Instructors should (IMHO) train students to deal with this matter, and not just say "you must not do it". That is not training.
The pilot then cocks up a simple activity by not putting enough power on, leaving the flaps down, going slower and slower and, maybe, stalling and crashing into the ground.
We all know this has happened and that is why many instructors have a mantra - never orbit on finals.
But really, it is just basic flying, and a well trained pilot will do what is necessary to ensure that he maintains appropriate airspeed - putting on PLENTY of power - and I don't think we should train pilots to the lowest common denominator. Instructors should (IMHO) train students to deal with this matter, and not just say "you must not do it". That is not training.