Orbiting on Final
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Uk
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Orbiting on final approach:
2 stages of flap.
70/75kts C152/PA28
15 degrees AOB (making allowance for wind)
2 minutes(ish) for a 360.
This is neither rocket science nor dangerous - basically the configuration for slow/safe cruise - the way you fly when position fixing when lost. Fair enough you might be a bit lower but it really is not a demanding manouevre - if you happen to think it is then I would respectfully suggest a session with an instructor.
2 stages of flap.
70/75kts C152/PA28
15 degrees AOB (making allowance for wind)
2 minutes(ish) for a 360.
This is neither rocket science nor dangerous - basically the configuration for slow/safe cruise - the way you fly when position fixing when lost. Fair enough you might be a bit lower but it really is not a demanding manouevre - if you happen to think it is then I would respectfully suggest a session with an instructor.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Although it would take quite a big change I think this is something that should be altered. I'd be interested in everyone's thoughts.
IMHO There should be no place for orbiting in any circuit, if you cant get in from finals, simply go around.
I remember a solo student years ago on basic training in the military who had a PPL, stating "I'll just orbit here at late downwind" when he should have continued to final and either got permission to land or roll or GONE AROUND.
He had an uncomfortable meeting with the Sqn Ldr, no coffee and biscuits, shortly after landing!
Unfortunately the civillian world has no such clear and simple procedure. I have often been asked to orbit in questionable circumstances, the other day LBA required me to orbit on downwind in a twin with a C172 ahead orbitting and a PA28 at TOC behind me also orbitting, the wx was average to cr*p and could easily have been a problem for a solo student.
I dont really wish to open the commercial versus GA debate which is often the reason for the request to orbit, (but go ahead if you like) what I'm suggesting is: As per RAF etc. just go around the circuit until you cant go any further then go around and rejoin the circuit and do it again, its simple, accurate and works universally.
The accident report above appears to relate simply to a go around request but as we know, anything out of the ordinary can quickly fill up the bottle if you're new.
Regards
Xraf
IMHO There should be no place for orbiting in any circuit, if you cant get in from finals, simply go around.
I remember a solo student years ago on basic training in the military who had a PPL, stating "I'll just orbit here at late downwind" when he should have continued to final and either got permission to land or roll or GONE AROUND.
He had an uncomfortable meeting with the Sqn Ldr, no coffee and biscuits, shortly after landing!
Unfortunately the civillian world has no such clear and simple procedure. I have often been asked to orbit in questionable circumstances, the other day LBA required me to orbit on downwind in a twin with a C172 ahead orbitting and a PA28 at TOC behind me also orbitting, the wx was average to cr*p and could easily have been a problem for a solo student.
I dont really wish to open the commercial versus GA debate which is often the reason for the request to orbit, (but go ahead if you like) what I'm suggesting is: As per RAF etc. just go around the circuit until you cant go any further then go around and rejoin the circuit and do it again, its simple, accurate and works universally.
The accident report above appears to relate simply to a go around request but as we know, anything out of the ordinary can quickly fill up the bottle if you're new.
Regards
Xraf
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OC619 - spot on! You're right about glider pilots being happier at higher angles of bank with higher airspeeds, my views may well have been influenced by a fair bit of unpowered flight during my early flying experience. As well as being trained in the use of higher bank angles, merely seeing them used from the ground routinely probably affects the mindset of most glider pilots. I'm NOT suggesting people should go off and practice things they've seen from the ground without an instructor, just that most powered club-type pilots are very unlikely to see higher angles of bank used - with the obvious exception of those airfields reknowned for aerobatics.
xraf - Also spot on! Agree with you completely. The hard part would have to be persuading people to fly smaller circuits - with the size of many GA circuits, a go-around necessitates a lot more flying than with your typical tight military oval. However, I don't want this thread to drift onto the joys of oval RAF circuits and GA circuits outside the ATZ - been done to death before!
xraf - Also spot on! Agree with you completely. The hard part would have to be persuading people to fly smaller circuits - with the size of many GA circuits, a go-around necessitates a lot more flying than with your typical tight military oval. However, I don't want this thread to drift onto the joys of oval RAF circuits and GA circuits outside the ATZ - been done to death before!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: EGSX
Age: 56
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Benhurr - thanks for that. Thats more or less what I thought, but it still seems a particularily risky thing to do when you're only 500 foot above a housing estate !!!
Personally I would go around and tell ATC that I was doing so. But having trained at an A/G field and doing most of my flying out of one, I'm not too sure about how well ignoring an ATC instruction would go down....!
Personally I would go around and tell ATC that I was doing so. But having trained at an A/G field and doing most of my flying out of one, I'm not too sure about how well ignoring an ATC instruction would go down....!
I had a similar experience whilst under training - I was on a solo flight. I was on finals, having made the correct radio calls, when I heard a motor glider call joining late finals. I looked out to base, and saw him heading straight for me in my 9 o'clock. What did I do? Frankly, I panicked, called that I was orbiting, and turned into him so that I could keep him in sight. He called back that what I was doing wasn't very clever. He was right. Thankfully, we both landed safely. My instructor hadn't seen/heard the incident, but told me that I should have gone around. I went off to the gliding club to aoplogise, to be met halfway by the motor glider pilot who was coming to see me to apologise! I guess we were both in the wrong; he shouldn't have tried to cut in front, and I should have gone round. I learned about flying from that..
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
xraf, I agree that orbits should not be necessary, provided that all aircraft fly a visual circuit and are flying at speeds that are more or less compatible.
But consider my home field, Rotterdam, which handles commercial traffic up to 737s as well. If I'm on downwind with a 737 on some-mile final (ILS), ATC is going to tell me to orbit. Because the alternatives are worse.
If he goes first (and he probably will, since he's on final and I'm not), I don't want to meet him, or his wake turbulence. So I'm going to have to wait it out, somewhere, for about two minutes. Continuing for two minutes on downwind takes me way outside the circuit, if not outside the CTR. If I just continue my circuit, base, final, over the runway, upwind and cross, all at circuit height, I'm making the 737 nervous because I might interfere with his go-around path. (And he might have to tangle with my wake turbulence!)
And if the tower lets me go first, well, the touchdown zones and exits on our runway are positioned so that even if you land long, even well beyond the light aircraft displaced touchdown zone, it still is quite a distance to roll before we get to the nearest exit. The aircraft I fly are used regularly for training (ATC knows the callsigns by heart) but ATC can't smell whether its a student or experienced pilot on board. They're not going to risk sending a 737 around because of a light aircraft taking a little longer to vacate than average.
So orbits in the circuit are a regular occurance where I fly. Nothing wrong with them if they happen on downwind or on any of the visual approach paths into the CTR.
Oh, and because of the interesting mix of comair and GA, first solos almost never happen at our field but go elsewhere.
But consider my home field, Rotterdam, which handles commercial traffic up to 737s as well. If I'm on downwind with a 737 on some-mile final (ILS), ATC is going to tell me to orbit. Because the alternatives are worse.
If he goes first (and he probably will, since he's on final and I'm not), I don't want to meet him, or his wake turbulence. So I'm going to have to wait it out, somewhere, for about two minutes. Continuing for two minutes on downwind takes me way outside the circuit, if not outside the CTR. If I just continue my circuit, base, final, over the runway, upwind and cross, all at circuit height, I'm making the 737 nervous because I might interfere with his go-around path. (And he might have to tangle with my wake turbulence!)
And if the tower lets me go first, well, the touchdown zones and exits on our runway are positioned so that even if you land long, even well beyond the light aircraft displaced touchdown zone, it still is quite a distance to roll before we get to the nearest exit. The aircraft I fly are used regularly for training (ATC knows the callsigns by heart) but ATC can't smell whether its a student or experienced pilot on board. They're not going to risk sending a 737 around because of a light aircraft taking a little longer to vacate than average.
So orbits in the circuit are a regular occurance where I fly. Nothing wrong with them if they happen on downwind or on any of the visual approach paths into the CTR.
Oh, and because of the interesting mix of comair and GA, first solos almost never happen at our field but go elsewhere.
Fly Conventional Gear
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winchester
Posts: 1,600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was watching an EMB-195 coming into land at Southampton today, about 3 miles from touch down on runway 20 the plane broke off the approach, started a right hand orbit, disappeared back into cloud before reappearing on the ILS a few minutes later.
An orbit is ok in controlled airspace in agreement with ATC but at a busy uncontrolled airfield orbitting on final is not recommended!
An orbit is ok in controlled airspace in agreement with ATC but at a busy uncontrolled airfield orbitting on final is not recommended!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Daventry
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Student callsigns
I well remember this incident as it happened during my flying training-I assumed at the time that it was base/final turn too tight/too slow but I now know the truth-all extremely sad.It actually impacted on my flying at the time as my instructor noticed that my approach speeds were greater than normal.
I noted in the report recommendations regarding callsigns to enable students to be identified to controllers and feel this is vital to safety.
During my training,the instructors had their own personal callsign.When they sent someone off solo, 'Sierra' was added to this callsign and used by the student.
The controller(s) knew then they had a student and it also permitted the instuctor to fly with another student-I think something like this should be mandatory.
Would like to think that this young man's passing would at least contribute a little to flight safety.
MM
I noted in the report recommendations regarding callsigns to enable students to be identified to controllers and feel this is vital to safety.
During my training,the instructors had their own personal callsign.When they sent someone off solo, 'Sierra' was added to this callsign and used by the student.
The controller(s) knew then they had a student and it also permitted the instuctor to fly with another student-I think something like this should be mandatory.
Would like to think that this young man's passing would at least contribute a little to flight safety.
MM
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Orbits are common where I am based (an ATC airfield).
However, I don't think ATC would ask a new solo student to do one (they know who is a new student pilot because the instructor phones them up).
There are far more stupid procedures than orbits. The overhead join is the #1 candidate for the stupidity award. You can have an unlimited number of planes (easily 5) in the OH at the same time, all at 2000ft agl, but you will be lucky to be visual with more than 1 of them. The OHJ was designed to enable the WW1 pilot (non-radio, of course) to read the signals square
On a wider subject, I think circuits early on in the training are daft. The student would learn more, and learn more enjoyably, if he did some real trips from start to end. There is some work being done on this in the USA, where they are using scenario-based learning (basically, doing normal flying, during which things happen) very successfully.
However, I don't think ATC would ask a new solo student to do one (they know who is a new student pilot because the instructor phones them up).
There are far more stupid procedures than orbits. The overhead join is the #1 candidate for the stupidity award. You can have an unlimited number of planes (easily 5) in the OH at the same time, all at 2000ft agl, but you will be lucky to be visual with more than 1 of them. The OHJ was designed to enable the WW1 pilot (non-radio, of course) to read the signals square
On a wider subject, I think circuits early on in the training are daft. The student would learn more, and learn more enjoyably, if he did some real trips from start to end. There is some work being done on this in the USA, where they are using scenario-based learning (basically, doing normal flying, during which things happen) very successfully.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: E Anglia
Posts: 1,102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Of course most PPLs can do an orbit on final in the approach configuration without falling from the sky:
But this poor student wasn't asked to do an orbit: after several uncertain and non-standard R/T exchanges he was asked in a non standard way to steer a course away from the final track to the North: a completely unexpected request and at variance from the usual 'go-around ' instruction to move to the right of the final track to keep Rwy in view which he would have been taught.
And all this after only 15 hours and on his second solo.
IMHO the ATC have a lot to answer for................
Cusco
Edited for grammar, syntaxe and to clarify whose side I'm on.
But this poor student wasn't asked to do an orbit: after several uncertain and non-standard R/T exchanges he was asked in a non standard way to steer a course away from the final track to the North: a completely unexpected request and at variance from the usual 'go-around ' instruction to move to the right of the final track to keep Rwy in view which he would have been taught.
And all this after only 15 hours and on his second solo.
IMHO the ATC have a lot to answer for................
Cusco
Edited for grammar, syntaxe and to clarify whose side I'm on.
Last edited by Cusco; 13th Jul 2007 at 10:09.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 2,212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by backpacker
xraf, I agree that orbits should not be necessary, provided that all aircraft fly a visual circuit and are flying at speeds that are more or less compatible.
But consider my home field, Rotterdam, which handles commercial traffic up to 737s as well. If I'm on downwind with a 737 on some-mile final (ILS), ATC is going to tell me to orbit. Because the alternatives are worse.
But consider my home field, Rotterdam, which handles commercial traffic up to 737s as well. If I'm on downwind with a 737 on some-mile final (ILS), ATC is going to tell me to orbit. Because the alternatives are worse.
If I just continue my circuit, base, final, over the runway, upwind and cross, all at circuit height, I'm making the 737 nervous because I might interfere with his go-around path. (And he might have to tangle with my wake turbulence!)
Oh, and because of the interesting mix of comair and GA, first solos almost never happen at our field but go elsewhere.
Horses for courses I suppose.
G-EMMA - I hope you're learning at an ATC airfield? If not then your instructor wants his ar$e kicked as orbiting off your own bat at an A/G or FISO airfield is asking for trouble. If they're demonstracting that to students then that's really appalling. You are right to think the go-around is a better option.
Cusco - I've read the read the report. Let's just say it's not how I would have done things, to the extent that the C150 might even have stayed no.1, at least until a point where they could have carried out a safe, standard, go-around if need be.
Last edited by Chilli Monster; 12th Jul 2007 at 22:58.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Manchester, UK
Age: 63
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
orbit on final
This is something I only came across recently. I am a low houred(140) ppl who was flying, as a passenger, into a regional airport when on final, we were instructed to orbit to maintain spacing from slow traffic ahead. My friend did this with no problem but afterwards I thought that if I had been flying I would have been unaware of which way to orbit. We had been flying a right hand circuit and my friend made a left hand orbit to rejoin without incident. From this I assumed the orbit should be made to the outside of the circuit or should ATC specify the direction of the orbit?
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: west sussex
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I remember coming into Norwich a couple of years ago - was on short finals in an Arrow with gear down, full flap, and probably at no more than 200ft height.
Another aircraft was at the hold waiting to line up, when ATC mixed up some instructions. Rather than clearing me to land and telling the other aircraft to hold position, he told me to hold position and then said something else to the other aircraft.
Told ATC that I wasn't really sure how he expected me to comply with the "hold position" instruction when at 200ft on short final, and told him I would do an orbit. Took down one stage of flap, left gear gown, applied more power to increase airspeed up to 90mph and did the orbit. I then landed without problem after the orbit when given clearance to land.
I then copped an earful from ATC along the lines of "WTF was that all about?" Prompt argument ensues - he listens to tape playback, and suddenly becomes apologetic.
Moral of story is not lay blame at the door of ATC - we are all human. And if given instructions which are impossible to comply with, or just unsafe, then climb away and / or leave the circuit. If you think you can do something safely, then do it. Problem with this poor student, is that climbing away and leaving the circuit was not an option for him in his limited experience. A very sad story.
Another aircraft was at the hold waiting to line up, when ATC mixed up some instructions. Rather than clearing me to land and telling the other aircraft to hold position, he told me to hold position and then said something else to the other aircraft.
Told ATC that I wasn't really sure how he expected me to comply with the "hold position" instruction when at 200ft on short final, and told him I would do an orbit. Took down one stage of flap, left gear gown, applied more power to increase airspeed up to 90mph and did the orbit. I then landed without problem after the orbit when given clearance to land.
I then copped an earful from ATC along the lines of "WTF was that all about?" Prompt argument ensues - he listens to tape playback, and suddenly becomes apologetic.
Moral of story is not lay blame at the door of ATC - we are all human. And if given instructions which are impossible to comply with, or just unsafe, then climb away and / or leave the circuit. If you think you can do something safely, then do it. Problem with this poor student, is that climbing away and leaving the circuit was not an option for him in his limited experience. A very sad story.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not surprised the lad got overloaded. You're so excited during the early solos that your comfort zone is very small - anything different can have strange consequences. I remember on my first cross-country getting into a muddle with an RAF controller (I couldn't understand him at all, first time it had ever happened) who was clearly working hard and talking very quickly. After passing 500ft I contacted him and it took me two attempts to hear the digits he wanted for the squawk.
It hardly rattled me, but the result was I left full power on in the cruise after trimming the aircraft, and hadn't noticed until I heard the same controller advising a crossing a/c of my presence with his tone suggesting some surprise at my airspeed....I was very surprised I hadn't even noticed.
It hardly rattled me, but the result was I left full power on in the cruise after trimming the aircraft, and hadn't noticed until I heard the same controller advising a crossing a/c of my presence with his tone suggesting some surprise at my airspeed....I was very surprised I hadn't even noticed.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: My house
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"I have been asked to do it several times, in the States, in RSA and most recently at Norwich IIRC!
Not really a big deal, roll on bank in the direction requested (generally left) and pull!
Stik"
Surely not good advice when students are reading.
If in a cessna 150, in the approach config. (flapped, low engine power travelling at Vs1 * 1.3), you then roll to the left, and pull, another tragic fatality is likely.
Not really a big deal, roll on bank in the direction requested (generally left) and pull!
Stik"
Surely not good advice when students are reading.
If in a cessna 150, in the approach config. (flapped, low engine power travelling at Vs1 * 1.3), you then roll to the left, and pull, another tragic fatality is likely.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: SE England
Age: 70
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
>>>I remember coming into Norwich a couple of years ago - was on short finals in an Arrow with gear down, full flap, and probably at no more than 200ft height.
Another aircraft was at the hold waiting to line up, when ATC mixed up some instructions. Rather than clearing me to land and telling the other aircraft to hold position, he told me to hold position and then said something else to the other aircraft.
Told ATC that I wasn't really sure how he expected me to comply with the "hold position" instruction when at 200ft on short final, and told him I would do an orbit. Took down one stage of flap, left gear gown, applied more power to increase airspeed up to 90mph and did the orbit. I then landed without problem after the orbit when given clearance to land.
I then copped an earful from ATC along the lines of "WTF was that all about?" Prompt argument ensues - he listens to tape playback, and suddenly becomes apologetic.<<<<
Try that at our local equivalent of Norwich and they'd do more than give you an ear-bashing!!!!!
They may well have mixed up their calls, but you
a) don't try to land with another aircraft on the runway, unless you can be sure you have room to do so.
b) Orbiting at such a late stage may be a good way of getting the spacing required, but you would be backing up a lot of others behind you - certainly here.
c) ATC would have been within their rights to have told you to go-around, and I'm surprised they didn't.
In my innocent view, you were clearly in the wrong. You should just have gone around.
Another aircraft was at the hold waiting to line up, when ATC mixed up some instructions. Rather than clearing me to land and telling the other aircraft to hold position, he told me to hold position and then said something else to the other aircraft.
Told ATC that I wasn't really sure how he expected me to comply with the "hold position" instruction when at 200ft on short final, and told him I would do an orbit. Took down one stage of flap, left gear gown, applied more power to increase airspeed up to 90mph and did the orbit. I then landed without problem after the orbit when given clearance to land.
I then copped an earful from ATC along the lines of "WTF was that all about?" Prompt argument ensues - he listens to tape playback, and suddenly becomes apologetic.<<<<
Try that at our local equivalent of Norwich and they'd do more than give you an ear-bashing!!!!!
They may well have mixed up their calls, but you
a) don't try to land with another aircraft on the runway, unless you can be sure you have room to do so.
b) Orbiting at such a late stage may be a good way of getting the spacing required, but you would be backing up a lot of others behind you - certainly here.
c) ATC would have been within their rights to have told you to go-around, and I'm surprised they didn't.
In my innocent view, you were clearly in the wrong. You should just have gone around.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, assuming he was in a fixed wing, and not a helicopter, and being legitimately told by ATC to "hold position", I guess he's got no other legitimate choice than to orbit. Or fall out of the sky.
But there was a suspicion that ATC was mixing up callsigns. What I would do is "XXX is short final, say again" with that tone of voice that suggests already that what ATC said was totally unexpected and a possible mistake on the ATC side.
Admittedly, short final, 200 feet to go, not much time to start sorting things out
But there was a suspicion that ATC was mixing up callsigns. What I would do is "XXX is short final, say again" with that tone of voice that suggests already that what ATC said was totally unexpected and a possible mistake on the ATC side.
Admittedly, short final, 200 feet to go, not much time to start sorting things out
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: west sussex
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lucy Lastic
Why don't you read more closely what I said.
a) don't try to land with another aircraft on the runway, unless you can be sure you have room to do so.
I only landed having received clearance - doesn't my post say this? The other aircraft which was waiting didn't actually line up - I didn't say this in the post, but why would you wait at 200ft? You have to take immediate action.
b) Orbiting at such a late stage may be a good way of getting the spacing required, but you would be backing up a lot of others behind you - certainly here.
Who said anything about spacing? It was to comply with a strange ATC instruction "hold position." How else do I hold without falling out the sky unless I orbit?
c) ATC would have been within their rights to have told you to go-around, and I'm surprised they didn't.
ATC could well have told me to go around if the other aircraft had started to line up. They didn't. It didn't. I could have elected to go around, and would have done if there had been other traffic behind me - but as there was no other traffic behind me and nothing in the circuit, I chose to comply with the unusual instruction because I felt it safe to do so.
All clear now?
Why don't you read more closely what I said.
a) don't try to land with another aircraft on the runway, unless you can be sure you have room to do so.
I only landed having received clearance - doesn't my post say this? The other aircraft which was waiting didn't actually line up - I didn't say this in the post, but why would you wait at 200ft? You have to take immediate action.
b) Orbiting at such a late stage may be a good way of getting the spacing required, but you would be backing up a lot of others behind you - certainly here.
Who said anything about spacing? It was to comply with a strange ATC instruction "hold position." How else do I hold without falling out the sky unless I orbit?
c) ATC would have been within their rights to have told you to go-around, and I'm surprised they didn't.
ATC could well have told me to go around if the other aircraft had started to line up. They didn't. It didn't. I could have elected to go around, and would have done if there had been other traffic behind me - but as there was no other traffic behind me and nothing in the circuit, I chose to comply with the unusual instruction because I felt it safe to do so.
All clear now?