High Viz Jackets - Mandatory at GA Airfields?
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Sir George, I agree with the legality of your argument. A land owner can, within limits, set access rules for his land, be it an airport or other property.
So if an airport owner wants to enact a very silly rule, say mickey mouse ears for everybody on the apron, then legally you have to comply. Or stay away. Now the airport owner will probably get questions about this and if he answer "because I like seeing people with mickey mouse ears" to the question why, then it's all right with me.
But from this thread you can see that most airfield operators do not give the true reasons for these rules, but hide behind generalities like "liability", "safety", "insurance reasons", "CAA rules", "byelaws", "everybody does it", "why not" and possibly even "war on terror".
All these reasons have been debunked one way or another in this forum. Lovely to read!
So if an airport owner wants to enact a very silly rule, say mickey mouse ears for everybody on the apron, then legally you have to comply. Or stay away. Now the airport owner will probably get questions about this and if he answer "because I like seeing people with mickey mouse ears" to the question why, then it's all right with me.
But from this thread you can see that most airfield operators do not give the true reasons for these rules, but hide behind generalities like "liability", "safety", "insurance reasons", "CAA rules", "byelaws", "everybody does it", "why not" and possibly even "war on terror".
All these reasons have been debunked one way or another in this forum. Lovely to read!
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All these reasons have been debunked one way or another in this forum.
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Gertrude,
You will have read Sir George's comments that airfield operators can set what conditions they like, such as to wear top hats or clown outfits, or even 'hi-vis jackets', and a judicial review would undoubtably uphold this. Your point is irrelevant.
The posts made show that this is an absurd requirement from any rational analysis, and thankfully, most small airfields do not have the requirement. If true, it would dismay me if Tollerton, into which I have flown many times, now wants it, especially as whenever I've been there, aircraft parking is right alongside the fence adjacent to the cluhouse.
I see that you are from Cambridge. It so happened that I flew into Cambridge recently, the first time for over 30 years. It is the only airport I have ever visited which has Hi-Vis J's on pegs by the airside door which could provide the facility required by your earlier post. And if I brought in a PA32 to pick up 4 passengers, would they all pick up jackets to leave at the farm strip where we are going? (and not coming back to Cambridge) Some airports at least have the sense to limit the requirement to aircrew.
I did finally succumb and buy one a couple of years age (£1.49 from a web site), up till then I had got away with a yellow polo shirt from Trimark. The requirement remains an absolute curse, except as Sir George says, one can avoid airfields with the requirement. I find that some who nominally have it, and want to encourage visitors, make no attempt to enforce it, so I can leave it in the aircraft.
The reason its a curse is that 90% of my flying is to other airfields where I am just not prepared to carry anything when I go to have a walk, lunch, or whatever. What do you do with the damn thing - I know, put it on a hook where it certainly wont still be when I come back to fly home a few hours later!
You will have read Sir George's comments that airfield operators can set what conditions they like, such as to wear top hats or clown outfits, or even 'hi-vis jackets', and a judicial review would undoubtably uphold this. Your point is irrelevant.
The posts made show that this is an absurd requirement from any rational analysis, and thankfully, most small airfields do not have the requirement. If true, it would dismay me if Tollerton, into which I have flown many times, now wants it, especially as whenever I've been there, aircraft parking is right alongside the fence adjacent to the cluhouse.
I see that you are from Cambridge. It so happened that I flew into Cambridge recently, the first time for over 30 years. It is the only airport I have ever visited which has Hi-Vis J's on pegs by the airside door which could provide the facility required by your earlier post. And if I brought in a PA32 to pick up 4 passengers, would they all pick up jackets to leave at the farm strip where we are going? (and not coming back to Cambridge) Some airports at least have the sense to limit the requirement to aircrew.
I did finally succumb and buy one a couple of years age (£1.49 from a web site), up till then I had got away with a yellow polo shirt from Trimark. The requirement remains an absolute curse, except as Sir George says, one can avoid airfields with the requirement. I find that some who nominally have it, and want to encourage visitors, make no attempt to enforce it, so I can leave it in the aircraft.
The reason its a curse is that 90% of my flying is to other airfields where I am just not prepared to carry anything when I go to have a walk, lunch, or whatever. What do you do with the damn thing - I know, put it on a hook where it certainly wont still be when I come back to fly home a few hours later!
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Anybody else seen the highly amusing Hi-Vis with the following slogen writ large on the back:
I'm wearing this to cover someone else's arse.
Says it all really. Gee, thanks Mr. 'No win, No fee'
Be seeing you...
I'm wearing this to cover someone else's arse.
Says it all really. Gee, thanks Mr. 'No win, No fee'
Be seeing you...
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That HV is available to buy from the Flyer website. I think, although could be wildly wrong here, that they had a competition open to the users of the Flyer Forum to see who could come up with the best logo and I am sure there were two winners and that was one of them.
Could be wrong though as I say!!!!
Could be wrong though as I say!!!!
Thread Starter
Anybody else seen the highly amusing Hi-Vis with the following slogen writ large on the back:
I'm wearing this to cover someone else's arse.
Says it all really. Gee, thanks Mr. 'No win, No fee'
Be seeing you...
I'm wearing this to cover someone else's arse.
Says it all really. Gee, thanks Mr. 'No win, No fee'
Be seeing you...
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When seeing someone wearing a hi vis puke coloured tank top at my local airfield walking in from their aeroplane I think poor suckers have flown in from an analport and promptly go and check where it is. So i can cross it off my list of places to see.
If the suckers walk into the bar still wearing one I consider barging into them and saying "sorry mate!! didn't see you there!!".
If the suckers walk into the bar still wearing one I consider barging into them and saying "sorry mate!! didn't see you there!!".
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The problem with this debate is it shows up all to clearly the counter productive properties of a tick box safety regime.
Safety regimes that are effective are about proportional risk assessment and management, but that requires a degree of grown up thought and it's easier and cheaper to tick the box.
There's also the sad fact that we have imported an American culture such that if some one suffers an accident they don't put it down to misfortune, they look for someone to blame and/or sue. French and German airfields are much more relaxed because they have yet to make that cultural error and still have a well developed sense of personal responsibility and self preservation.
Safety regimes that are effective are about proportional risk assessment and management, but that requires a degree of grown up thought and it's easier and cheaper to tick the box.
There's also the sad fact that we have imported an American culture such that if some one suffers an accident they don't put it down to misfortune, they look for someone to blame and/or sue. French and German airfields are much more relaxed because they have yet to make that cultural error and still have a well developed sense of personal responsibility and self preservation.
Mess Your Passage
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Even b thinks it sucks....
And im not going to change how i feel about eharding dressed up.......
it's nothing more than a delay thing......
luv
xxxx
f
And im not going to change how i feel about eharding dressed up.......
it's nothing more than a delay thing......
luv
xxxx
f
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There's also the sad fact that we have imported an American culture
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Classic!! I used a similar excuse the other day when I had to go-around because of a really poor approach (I should know better). When asked why by the lads at the club I responded "I was blinded by the sun reflecting off someones Hi-Vis" (Male bovine manure detectors went into the red at this point!).
This is well known to politicians as "The Mad Cow excuse"
Mad cow? Mad cow disease of course, technically BSE, or "Blame Someone Else"!!!
Be seeing you....
This is well known to politicians as "The Mad Cow excuse"
Mad cow? Mad cow disease of course, technically BSE, or "Blame Someone Else"!!!
Be seeing you....
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At the end of the day, you dont have to go there if it upsets you.
PPR and by telephone in advance please - it is our field if you don’t like it go else where .. .. .. yellow jacket, sir, if you don’t like it go away, mode S sir, those the rules, obey them or stay on the ground, after all its our sky .. .. ..
We all seem to forget some of the airports WE own, they are owned by the local authority and we pay the rates, and most at any rate rely on OUR fees and business to survive.
(I would except purely privately owned strips in people’s backyards where I would agree the owner can make up whatever rules he likes, and it WOULD be rude to just drop in).
Take Duxford as one example. I passed by recently (in the winter) nothing going on, three or four aircraft on the ground at most, oh be nice to stop for a coffee. Not on your life PPR sir by ‘phone. Well what about if I land at Cambridge and telephone - we might let you then sir. Now if there was a good reason such as a show going on or it was busy I could understand - sorry sir we are a bit busy today, but do try again etc., but no those the rules. However if you turn up by car you don’t have to PPR first. Bizarre, and its meant to be a museum for aviators.
Same with yellow jackets, if we all complained about them EVERY time the operators might reliase it wasn’t in their interest to apply such bizarre rules. In fact if we all made a point of turning up and NOT putting on our jacket until asked we might make even more impact. I make a point of always doing so and it is surprising how often I am not asked to don said yellow jacket. The one place where they are ahead of even that game is Alderney - they asked me recently not to forget to put on my jacket before I got out the aircraft! Only one aircraft moved the whole time I was on the field - bizarre.
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Alderney
Fuji,
This is terrible news. I have flown to Alderney over 20 times over the years. Last year I had no problem.
But is Alderney, over which I have walked so much, and occasionally hired a bike and riden all round, now to be denied to me?
Of all the places I fly to, this is one of those where I will NEVER carry anything when I leave the airfield!
Ah, I know! I'll next fly there when its warm, and wear my Primark yellow polo shirt. No-one could argue that the silver reflective bands serve any purpose in daylight.
MikeJ
This is terrible news. I have flown to Alderney over 20 times over the years. Last year I had no problem.
But is Alderney, over which I have walked so much, and occasionally hired a bike and riden all round, now to be denied to me?
Of all the places I fly to, this is one of those where I will NEVER carry anything when I leave the airfield!
Ah, I know! I'll next fly there when its warm, and wear my Primark yellow polo shirt. No-one could argue that the silver reflective bands serve any purpose in daylight.
MikeJ
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I understand that some airports are about to require hard hats with both a red flashing beacon and white strobe lights on them.
However the good news is initially they will only be required on poor vis days and after dark.
I think Duxford is going to be one of the first to require this innovative safety item.
However the good news is initially they will only be required on poor vis days and after dark.
I think Duxford is going to be one of the first to require this innovative safety item.
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I was up at 2,000ft over Northampton on Friday, when I came across some seagulls 
Fortunately, I was wearing my hi-viz (now mandated at Sywell too) so they saw me and got out of the way
See ... hi-viz clearly = safe ... I'm a convert
RC
Fortunately, I was wearing my hi-viz (now mandated at Sywell too) so they saw me and got out of the way
See ... hi-viz clearly = safe ... I'm a convert
RC
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I'll next fly there when its warm, and wear my Primark yellow polo shirt.
.. .. ..I often wear it as a high viz substitute but one bright spark recently told me it was not high viz .. .. ..
I complained it couldnt be more high viz and was the correct colour .. .. ..
he said it was not reflective .. .. ..
I still wonder if I should have pointed out it was broad daylight and even a high viz was unlikely to glow in those conditions.
You might get away with it with the silver reflective bands or you could try some of that 3M tape sailors stick on lifebouys maybe.
Thread Starter
An amusing follow-up on this one.
There I am about to start the engine and one of the owners of the aerodrome walking across the "ramp" and NOT wearing a High Viz! I start up and the A/G is (politely) informing a visiting aircraft "In future would you please wear a High Viz when walking to/from your aircraft".
Practice what you preach?
There I am about to start the engine and one of the owners of the aerodrome walking across the "ramp" and NOT wearing a High Viz! I start up and the A/G is (politely) informing a visiting aircraft "In future would you please wear a High Viz when walking to/from your aircraft".
Practice what you preach?