Logging Co-Pilot & PIC flight time as PPL holder

[Say again s l o w l y]

I will look for the exact passage from LASORS tomorrow if I get a chance, but commone sense dictates that a single crew a/c only needs one pilot, therefore unless there is a specific reason, then how can two pilots log the time?

A holders operating capacity in this case can only be P1 or P/UT, not 50% of the P1 time because they happened to be sitting in the machine whilst the other pilot flew.

There were cases of people going out to the States and hiring a/c and both logging the time as P1, but eventually the CAA cottoned on to this and stamped on it as hard as they could.
This comes under the same thing.

[bookworm]

Originally Posted by Mike Cross

On a point of pedantry Bookworm, LASORS is not definitive. It does tend to include stuff that the editor has chosen to write which does not form part of the legal requirements and it does not differentiate between the two. Comparison between JAR and LASORS will show up the differences.

Indeed, but neither is JAR-FCL1 regulatory except where adopted into UK law.

The JAR-FCL1 definition of co-pilot is perfectly clear, but is not as general as the definition in the ANO. LASORS bridges the gap by making it clear what subset of co-pilot time according to UK law will be accepted "towards meeting the overall flying experience requirements for a licence". Even that is broader than JAR-FCL1 co-pilot time.

Personally, I think it's pointless to log co-pilot time except time that qualifies according to LASORS. But theresalwaysone is technically correct.

For reference:

ANO

155(1)‘Co-pilot’ in relation to an aircraft means a pilot who in performing his duties as such is subject to the direction of another pilot carried in the aircraft;

35(2) Particulars of each flight during which the holder of the log book acted either as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft ..., shall be recorded in the log book ..., including:
...(c) the capacity in which the holder acted in flight;

JAR-FCL1 1.080(c)

(2) Co-pilot flight time
The holder of a pilot licence occupying a pilot seat as co-pilot may log all flight time as co-pilot flight time on an aeroplane on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aeroplane, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

LASORS2006 Sec A App C Note 3

3) A pilot claiming flying hours as co-pilot towards meeting the overall flying experience requirements for a licence, as provided for in cases C,D, F(ii)or K, will only be credited with that flight time if holding an appropriate licence to
perform co-pilot duties, and if:

a) the flight was conducted in an aircraft required by its Certificate of Airworthiness, or by Article 25(3) of the Air Navigation Order, to carry a
crew of not less than two pilots; or

b) the flight was conducted by an AOC holder choosing to operate a particular aircraft as a two pilot operation and provided that the
specific duties that the second pilot was required to perform on all flights in respect of the operation of the aircraft were contained in the Operations Manual relating to the aircraft;or

c) it was conducted in a military aircraft normally flown by more than one pilot; or

d) exceptionally in Cases C and D, and subject to prior agreement with the CAA, it was conducted in an aircraft not required to carry two pilots but which was fitted with full dual controls for that flight, and the pilot-in-command certifies in the co-pilot's log book that the flight was conducted as a genuine two pilot operation.

[Final 3 Greens]

Just out of purely pedantic motives, can one log R1 or N1 time in the RHS of a PA28 and if not, why not?

[theresalwaysone]

Originally Posted by Say again s l o w l y

Sorry but there is a load of old nonsense being posted here.

I will say this for the last and final time;

A PPL CANNOT log a flight if there is another pilot already logging it, unless that other person is an FI.

Get it? Got it? Good.

Check LASORS as per usual. It's not rocket science...... It's common sense.

Wrong --a PPL can log any flight in a log book including passenger flying. What you are trying to say that such logged time will not count for the grant or renewal of a licence or rating in the UK. When you are talking about legislative issues you need to ensure you are referencing the law and not your own personal opinion, you also need to be concise in your choice of words and be sure you are quoting from definitive documents, that is why I pointed out that ONLY is not correct, MINMUM is the wording on the C of A. Understandbly at this level of flying the reasoning can seem vague but when a PPL wants to buy a Boeing 737 or a HS125 and fly it by himself it becomes a little more relevant. There have been cases of two minimum crew aircraft that have had three operating pilots the BA Trident for instance.

As someone has just pointed out LASORS is a reference publication, its not a Statutory Instrument as the ANO is, its the ANO that the CAA Barrister will be using in court!

For interested parties I include a copy of the CAA info;

LASORS 2006 Description: The LAS section brings together in one easily understandable book all the flight crew licensing information otherwise found in JAR-FCL, the UK ANO, AICs and the old CAPs 53/54. Regulations and procedures do change between the annual publishing of LASORS and these updates are notified by AICs and published on our website www.caa.co.uk/srg/licensing. The ORS section is also by no means in its definitive format. If it can be enhanced to make the whole book more valuable to the pilot it will be. The aim is to give pilots a one-stop reference for all aspects of safe aeroplane operation.

[robin]

In that case, why not buy a log-book specially for flying as a passenger - cos that is what is being described here

[SKYYACHT]

I just wish that the powers that be would re-write the ANO to reflect the US system, whereby all flight time where the pilot was "The sole manipulator of the flight controls" could be logged as P1. (Provided that the pilot was the holder of a pilot licence of course!) In my 'umble understanding, this reduces the confusion. I fly with pilot A..... He passes the controls to me. I, as a qualified Pilot, fly the aircraft for 30 minutes, whilst he gawps out of the window. At the end of 30 minutes, I pass control back to him.

The question remains - Was I truly flying the aircraft in reality? Was I responsible for see and avoid..... Was I operating the radio.... ?

If the answer to all of these was YES, then am I am passenger? If not, then should I not be able to log the 30 minutes flying during which I was the handling pilot?

I dunno.


I'm off to the pub for a beer..... I wish... More like back to the computer to finish my project!

Hi Say again slowly! Hows things?

[Say again s l o w l y]

Very well thanks mate. I hope all is well darn sarf. Get that project done or Roger will be after you!

Every time questions like these come up, I shake my head. As with most thing in aviation, a good dose of common sense will tell you the real answer. Ask yourself the question, Why do I want the answer to this? Is it because I'm trying to build hours on the sly? Or is this a genuine situation like the mentioned by skyyacht?

In reality it is very simple. A single crew a/c can only have a single pilot (unless there is an FI giving training onboard, but even then, there is only one captain. For example I cannot log the time that I send a student solo, though I do get paid for it.) so in most circumstances, only one pilot can log the time, basically, the person who signed for the a/c and who in the event of a disaster will be deemed PIC in absentia. You sign for it, you log it. It gets broken, you answer for it, not the "passenger."

As before, not rocket science, anything else is just someone trying to get around the rules of common sense for their own gain.

[SKYYACHT]

Glad

Glad to hear all is well in Sunny Jockistan....

Yes, I am ploughing through it slowly.... I am about 25% done. Its not Roger I worry about - Its Steve and Fleur!!!!

It would be nice if the CAA injected some simplification into the procedings... I accept that he who signs for the aeroplane is repsonsible in a "Bent it to buggery" situation, and that the insurers need to know who loses their NCB, but I still think that the logic of the FAA system is unassailable - If you are the chappie poling the thing around, then the time is yours, even if chummy is sitting in the left seat, and even if you sit in the RHS without an instructors ticket., I wish I had a quid for every time this came up.... I would be able to afford an hours instruction with Say Again Slowly!!!!

Cheers

[theresalwaysone]

QUOTE---In reality it is very simple. A single crew a/c can only have a single pilot (unless there is an FI giving training onboard, but even then, there is only one captain. For example I cannot log the time that I send a student solo, though I do get paid for it.) so in most circumstances, only one pilot can log the time, basically, the person who signed for the a/c and who in the event of a disaster will be deemed PIC in absentia. You sign for it, you log it. It gets broken, you answer for it, not the "passenger."

Its no wonder your shaking your head, your tying youself up in knots.

Lets take your example, you say a single crew a/c can only have a single pilot.

Let me give you two examples of how your misunderstanding of what you are talking about isnt quite correct.

1. On the same night that Graham Hill was killed in around 1972 Eric Auchin and Arthur Penzer were killed at Birmingham making an approach and go-around in 100 metres visibilty ( in fact 3 approaches.) There were flying Eric's Baron which according to your logic is a single pilot only aircraft. Eric Auchin had a medical condition which meant he could only fly with another qualified pilot. There were two pilots operating this aircraft. The subsequent AIB enquiry could not establish who was handling the controls at the time of impact but evidence from RT transmissions and other pilots who knew the pair well lead the enquiry to believe that the much more experienced Penzer had taken over to fly all three approaches from the right hand seat and that this had been a posible contributory factor in the loss of control during the go-around.Auchin had booked out as P1 with Penzer shown as the passenger. Auchin was however not qualified to fly IFR in controlled airspace so ask yourself who became the commander in this incident.

2. Another incident where the pilot of a light aircraft, which you call a single pilot only a/c, was flying with a friend who was also a qualified pilot. during the flight the commander had a heart attack and was incapacitated. Subsequently the passenger took control and became the commander and landed the aircraft safely.(wonder how they logged that one then!)

In both of these incidents these two aircraft, both minimum single pilot aircraft, had two pilots.

I should add also that one of our Captains (who has recently retired) had a heart condition and while flying our aircraft he could only fly with another training Captain(and yes under JARS) if he had wanted to fly a light aircraft he was in the same position as Eric Auchin in that he had to have a qualified pilot beside him.

In regard to Log books the entries are evidence of your experience, the time you spend handling the controls is not the issue. As commander, and the phrase captain was dropped many years ago, you may be exercising the privleges of your licence with minimum or nil contact with the contols. Your log book entries for the purpose of the order shows the time you acted in the capacity of commander or pilot under instruction or pilot other than commander.

the fact that you book out as commander dsont not mean that you will land as such!

Many years ago the commander of an aircraft wishing to fly along the Berlin Corridor had to sit on the flight deck as an observer(passenger) of an aircraft and fly along the corridor with someone else in order to get the nesecarry consent--guess how this was logged in my log book and I didnt feel the need to buy another log book!?

So you see in reality (quote) it is not very simple-- legislation is always a matter of interpretation--interpretaion is based on experience and those with the widest experience can usualy provider wider interpretation!

[Sultan Ismail]

I find this thread very relevant, as a short while ago I was called on to adjudicate for a Flying Club where PPL members were suspected of double booking the time as P1.
Inspection of the Autho sheets, the Tech Log and the individual pilots logbooks for the last 2 years revealed that each pilot had accumulated upto 30 hours P1 time whilst flying in the Right Hand seat.

The Autho sheet is a legal document in my view, it shows a pilots intentions before the flight, i.e Pilot and pax are identified, flight time is nominated, air exercises are nominated, and following the flight, actual start and stop times are recorded and the flight time is indelibly recorded as P1, P1u/s etc by the nominated pilot. No one else has a right to record those times in their logbook.

The reasoning of the culprits was to reduce the cost in attaining an AFI rating, which they had subsequently achieved.

The recommendation following the enquiry was to suspend the AFI rating for 6 months, however they could exercise the privileges of a PPL, and to require a re-test for the AFI rating if they wished to continue down that path.

In addition the Department of Civil Aviation was given a copy of the investigation report and the recommendation.

[Say again s l o w l y]

There are certainly times when a pilot needs to have someone with them to allow them fly. For instance an NPPL holder with the most restrictive medical needs a safety pilot to be able to carry pax.

Or during line training in an airline, there needs to be a safety pilot.

This is all unloggable time. The person is just there in case the proverbial hits the rotating object. Not as a cheap way to build hours.

In each example you give, it shows the reason why these a/c are only single crew, yes there were two pilots onboard, but they weren't trained for multi crew operations and in each case this was a factor that contributed in someway to the accident.
An airliner cannot be flown single crew unless there is an situation such as incapacitation and whilst it is possible to fly something like a 737 solo, certainly if the skipper has a heart attack, then how is the F/O to taxi the thing whilst on the ground.
Your average spamcan does not require two pilots, though as many PPL's fly together, there is usually some delegation of tasks between them, but at no time can two PPL's log the same time in an a/c. They could log half the flight each, but not the whole thing or even one log it all and the other log 50%.

In an emergency such as crew incapacitation, then normal rules don't really apply. Certainly what to log would be the last thing on your mind. Though it would probably be fair that the person who took over and did all the work was able to log the time they did, but that would mean the incapacitated pilot wouldn't be able to log it if it were a single crew a/c.

What is asked here, though is about pre-meditated fudging of hours or "pencil time". It would be very difficult to say what was an acceptable level of "help" on a flight that would allow two pilots to log the time. So to keep it sensible. an a/c that only REQUIRES a single pilot, only one person can log it, whereas a machine designated as multi pilot, needs more than one person to operate it on a normal basis, so the crew must always log it as there is clear and defined tasks for them to do to keep the a/c pointed in the right direction. Not the case with a single crew a/c.

[Final 3 Greens]

What is asked here, though is about pre-meditated fudging of hours or "pencil time".

With all due respect, this was not the case.

A clear question was asked "can a PPL in the RHS, acting as P2, claim 50% of the flight time, to reduce the costs of maintaining a licence.

And the answer is no.

The original poster did not ask about ways of claiming P1 time and did not seek any "fudges", just a straight answer, which was provided.

As to your earlier comment about the CAA stamping on "dual logging" in the USA, I remember being grilled by the FAA Inspector who dealt with my FAA certificate (piggy backed on my CAA licence) in 1996, so the Feds were doing their bit too.

[theresalwaysone]

With respect Say Again slowly you are obviously talking ouside your own level of experience because some the arguments you put forward are incorrect, for instance:

quote: Or during line training in an airline, there needs to be a safety pilot.
This is all unloggable time. The person is just there in case the proverbial hits the rotating object. Not as a cheap way to build hours.

Where on earth did you get that from? First of all can i mention that i am a training captain with a Heathrow based airline on jet transports.
During line training there is never a safety pilot in a minimum two crew aircraft. The commander of the aircraft sits in the RH seat if he is training a captain and vice versa if he is training an FO. For the first four sectors of that training a FO or Captain sits on the jump seat as observer but primarly in case the candiadte needs to be replaced at any stage. After these 4 sectors the pair continue alone, hours are logged as per normal and the observer should show a record of the flight in his log book.

QUOTE AGAIN--In each example you give, it shows the reason why these a/c are only single crew, yes there were two pilots onboard, but they weren't trained for multi crew operations and in each case this was a factor that contributed in someway to the accident.

Again not correct --

first example---a pilot taking over from an incapacitated pilot dosnt cause an accident, he prevents one and this has nothing to do with why the aircrafts C of A states---minimum crew-one.

second example---In the Penzer accident the AIB cited the fact that Penzer would have not have had the best view of the primary flying instruments and the ILS receiver to conduct an accurate go around from the RH seat in 100 metres and that this was one of the most likely contributory causes of the loss of control. Howver say again slowly your view that Penzer was not trained in multi crew operation was not a factor mentioned by the AIB.

QUOTE An airliner cannot be flown single crew unless there is an situation such as incapacitation and whilst it is possible to fly something like a 737 solo, certainly if the skipper has a heart attack, then how is the F/O to taxi the thing whilst on the ground.

WRONG ---Captain Paddy Clarke, recently retired, spent many years flying a Viscount as a one pilot aircraft for the Royal Aircraft Establisment, he had a specialy modified stick which he used to work the knobs out of reach on his right side! An FO taxies an aircraft on the ground in the same way that the captain does by using the tiller provided for him by the manufacturer, to coin one of your phrases, not exactlty, rocket science is it? In our company the FO is allowed to taxy all the way to the stand on his leg but not onto the stand as the guidance is set up for the LH seat pilot. To be fair some older aircaft i have flown have only had a tiller on the LH side but its rare nowadays on new aircraft.

QUOTE So to keep it sensible. an a/c that only REQUIRES a single pilot, only one person can log it, whereas a machine designated as multi pilot, needs more than one person to operate it on a normal basis, so the crew must always log it as there is clear and defined tasks for them to do to keep the a/c pointed in the right direction. Not the case with a single crew a/c.[/quote]


Again incorrect and as mentioned several times before you can log what you like in your log book if its a record of your experience. In the case where a required second pilot is carried that second pilot should log the time in his log book because 1. it is a record of his experience and 2. it proves that the commander was following the mandatory restriction in his licence.

You need to try an understand what the purpose of a log book is. Just say that our pilot with the restricted licence was killed along with his safety pilot. One of the things the AIIB would look at is the experience of both pilots and the pattern of their previous flying.If they looked at the safety pilots log book and it contained no such record of his supervision the AIIB may conclude that the restricted pilot had not been following the terms of his licence restriction. However,as has now been done to death on here, You cannot count P2 hours logged as such for the grant or renewal of a licence of a rating in the UK.

Again with respect and I would apply this to many of the posts I have seen on this forum, beware of confusing opinion with fact especially if your experience is limited.

[dublinpilot]

Guys,

You are getting tied up in semantics.

Look back to the original post for a second.

This could have relevance for pilots wishing to reduce costs of maintain PPL rights (12 months preceeding rating expiry 12 hours flight time of which only 6 has to be PIC).

Of the 12 hours required for revalidating a SEP class rating, 6 must be PIC, and one must be with an instructor. This leaves 5 hours which aren't specified.

Is anyone suggesting that those 5 hours could be satisfied with P2 time on a PA28/C150?

If you look back to the original post, I think you'll both agree on the substance

dp

[Julian]

The Autho sheet is a legal document in my view, it shows a pilots intentions before the flight, i.e Pilot and pax are identified, flight time is nominated, air exercises are nominated, and following the flight, actual start and stop times are recorded and the flight time is indelibly recorded as P1, P1u/s etc by the nominated pilot. No one else has a right to record those times in their logbook.

What happens if pilot intentions change during flight? (i.e. arrive at airpot and its IMC and someone else takes over for the landing? or feeling knackered so your mate flies). P1 changeover midair is something myself and friends have done numerous times.

You are also assuming everyone has one of these sheets. Our aircraft signout sheet does not stipulate who is doing what, only date, who is taking it, where and acutal hours flown entered when you get back - not before you go. There is no nomination of flight time/hours/exercises/etc and why should there be? What you decide on the ground may not be what you do in the air for whatever reason. Flying clubs may have their own rules.

The logbook is the place to record your hours/responsibilities.

[Sultan Ismail]

Thank you for your comments Julian, however I was referring to an actual case in a country far from Blighty where Autho sheets are required, where a flight plan is required for any departure from the circuit and GF, and we don't have an IMC rating.
The rules are different here but the act of false entries in a logbook appears to apply internationally.

[bookworm]

Originally Posted by dublinpilot

Is anyone suggesting that those 5 hours could be satisfied with P2 time on a PA28/C150?

Before this thread I would have said that was crazy. Now, reading the way that LASORS and JAR-FCL1 are phrased, I think there's a case for 6 of the 12 hours of "flight time" required for revalidation to be P2 time or, for that matter, chief steward time, on a PA28/C150. I very much doubt that that is the intention.

[youngskywalker]

A similar situation with myself. I asked the question on here a while ago about a single pilot kingair, the consensus was about 50-50 weather I could log it as P2.

In the end, and after discussing it with many other proffesional pilots, they all agreed that it was acceptable for me to log it as P2, providing I did not try to count the time for the issue or renewal of a licence or rating. I have done just that but also I clearly marked it in my book to state that I was not including this time for any licence issue purposes. What value does this time have some will say? well in the eyes of the FAA/CAA probably not much, but perhaps to an employer it will show a 'record of my personal flying experience', to some of you it will make me look like I'm blagging hours or trying to cheat the system. Although perhaps the Kingair whilst still being a single pilot aircraft, we do try and operate it as a crew and it is a little more serious than a PA28.

Preparing to be shot down in flames again!

[WestWind1950]

the five other hours are, for example, training times where the instructor is PIC!! what is so difficult?
As has been said, you cannot claim times as pilot in a single-pilot aircraft if you are not the PIC! When you are a passenger, you cannot put any of the times in your log book...they don't count! use a different book if you want!
The cases mentioned above are SPECIAL cases where a safety pilot is required by law/medical... disreguarding the single-pilot issue and in cases of emergencies. If a pilot I am flying with has a heart attack, of course I will take over.... and I wouldn't give about writing down any hours! good grief! common sense could go a long way!
And the PIC must be seated in the seat disignated as such by the manual...i.e. the seat in which the plane can be flown solo.... that's a very simple regulation and may perhaps only be according to German law, but sensible to me!
Westy

[theresalwaysone]

Young skywalker I think you are getting warm! A personal log book forms a record of your personal experience and it has many uses, it can impress friends, employers and the CAA etc. It also has the function of proving your experience in the event of an accident.

For instance lets say in theory that two identical pilots had the same serious accident in an Aztec. Both pilots had previously had 10 hours experience of multi engine aircraft. One pilot however had a 1000 hrs P2 time on a twin not required to have a co pilot and had flown leg and leg about with the captain but that pilot following advice on this forum had not logged any of this flying. Now ask yourself the question that if the AIIB looked at both of those pilots log books would they assume that both pilots only had 10 hours experience in multi-engine aircaft and would that be the case and a true reflection of each pilots experience?

Another reason for I would advise you to log all flying is because in years to come you may want to look back and reminice about the aircraft you were in,the people you flew alongside and the places you visited. My son, much to my annoyance sometimes, gets my log books and asks me about flights I made 30 years ago and I see that some of those were P2 in single engine aircaft were I flew as a safety pilot while another pilot flew an IFR cross country. I have never counted any of those hours (or even totalled them) for anything but they form a personal record of my flying experience as a non handling pilot and one that i am very glad to look back on, so take no notice of the barrack room lawyers, you put what you like in your log book its your property not the CAA's!.

Its a long time since I flew King Airs but my FOs at the time counted their P2 time under an agreed scheme with the CAA, I seem to remember. The best place to seek authoritive information on the sublject is from the CAA themselves but always make sure they put it in writing. Over the years the CAA have granted dispensations to quite a lot of different bits and pieces of legislation (when there are legitimate and valid reasons) but the first requirment of couse is to ask!