Training fixes
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WWW, I certainly understand your points and respectfully disagree with them. However, I think you'd convince more people if you toned down your demeanor and language. Gentle encouragement I believe is the term. It's fine to be firm in your beliefs but also show respect for others with differing opinions.
When I first began flying there were times I had a rough idea where I was but was not absolutely certain. I don't think it's wrong for someone in that situation to ask for a training fix. It does no one any harm. And every airliner within 200 nm will not turn off 121.5. As pilots build up their XC time they'll become more comfortable in knowing where they are and this won't be an issue for them.
My instructor had no problem with me carring a handheld GPS but he did ask that I not use it unless I was absolutely lost (until I got my PPL). i.e. use it as a last resort. I'm surprised that more instructors don't show their students how to use them and even encourage them to carry one as a backup. Personally, I use mine as primary nav and use VORs as backup, writing down my position every 10-15 minutes.
When I first began flying there were times I had a rough idea where I was but was not absolutely certain. I don't think it's wrong for someone in that situation to ask for a training fix. It does no one any harm. And every airliner within 200 nm will not turn off 121.5. As pilots build up their XC time they'll become more comfortable in knowing where they are and this won't be an issue for them.
My instructor had no problem with me carring a handheld GPS but he did ask that I not use it unless I was absolutely lost (until I got my PPL). i.e. use it as a last resort. I'm surprised that more instructors don't show their students how to use them and even encourage them to carry one as a backup. Personally, I use mine as primary nav and use VORs as backup, writing down my position every 10-15 minutes.
A Training Fix is what I the instructor ask for in the process of teaching you the student how to contact 121.5 in accordance with the the LOST procedure. You are not entitled to use it. Or in this case abuse it.
Pilots who do not wish to carry out a practice emergency but only wish to confirm their position may request a ‘Training Fix’ on 121.5 MHz. This ‘Training Fix’ is secondary in importance to actual emergency calls but takes precedence over practice emergency calls in the event of simultaneous incidents.
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www said
I just had a look at my Trevor thom Volume 7, 2001 edition:
Page 122 second paragraph -
Weasley, I think you are referring to a Practice-Pan. The training fix is something that could be used post PPL qualification. Although the book didn't say it, I would advise anyone attempting this to listen for a time to 121.5 just to make sure that nobody is actually involved in a genuine Pan or Mayday call.
Also if I really thought I was lost, I would make a Pan call. I agree that someone attempting to use 121.5 because they actually can't navigate efficiently should either retrain or question their motives very carefully.
A Training Fix is what I the instructor ask for in the process of teaching you the student how to contact 121.5 in accordance with the the LOST procedure. You are not entitled to use it. Or in this case abuse it.
Page 122 second paragraph -
For a practice emergency requiring only a confirmation of your position, you can request a Training-Fix on 121.5 MHz. This call takes precedence over a Practice-Pan, but not over a real Mayday or Pan call.
Also if I really thought I was lost, I would make a Pan call. I agree that someone attempting to use 121.5 because they actually can't navigate efficiently should either retrain or question their motives very carefully.
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Plus I have to monitor 121.5 every working day. I have no problem with the r/t calls I might miss or have to be repeated because someone in their Piper is suddenly lost. I have a big moral problem though if they are asking for a training fix, being denied, then asking for real.
Perhaps a few fighter launches with all the appropriate costs being sent to the airlines involved might help focus the minds on this particular un-needed use of the emergency frequency
On average there is a loss of comms for a prolonged period in these circumstances at least once a day in the UK, and it's getting worse. Back to the topic, if you are lost (or uncertain of position), then make that call to D&D. Don't dress things up to try and save face, just tell them the truth and they will do what they can to help you out. It's a no brainer.
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WWW
If your reference applies to my post, please would you explain, preferably in temperate language, why you have such a problem with my actions, when the D&D cell did not?
Furthermore, given the number of CAS busts near Stansted and the CAA comment about the part that featureless terrain may play in this respect, why are you so opposed to airmanship that recognised the risk of transgressing, especially given the comments by some controllers on PPrune about their concerns relating to traffic skirting their zones?
Had you been crew on an airliner forced to GA due to a zone bust, would you still be so adamant in your views?
Do you have superpowers that allow you to see through sunny haze, that was unforecast and see landmarks that are invisible to normal people?
Seems like you are opposed to a win-win outcome.
And if I was LOST, the streak of yellow down the middile of my back would get me on the radio stating precisely that and asking for vectors or other assistance IMMEDIATELY.
Of course, if you remember back to 1996, GPS was not as widely available as it is now and GPS is a great secondary navaid, if used carefully.
If your reference applies to my post, please would you explain, preferably in temperate language, why you have such a problem with my actions, when the D&D cell did not?
Furthermore, given the number of CAS busts near Stansted and the CAA comment about the part that featureless terrain may play in this respect, why are you so opposed to airmanship that recognised the risk of transgressing, especially given the comments by some controllers on PPrune about their concerns relating to traffic skirting their zones?
Had you been crew on an airliner forced to GA due to a zone bust, would you still be so adamant in your views?
Do you have superpowers that allow you to see through sunny haze, that was unforecast and see landmarks that are invisible to normal people?
Seems like you are opposed to a win-win outcome.
And if I was LOST, the streak of yellow down the middile of my back would get me on the radio stating precisely that and asking for vectors or other assistance IMMEDIATELY.
Of course, if you remember back to 1996, GPS was not as widely available as it is now and GPS is a great secondary navaid, if used carefully.
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Those that have, and those that will
Maxflyer, an interesting statement:
I would be careful with your last assumption. It is that sort of statement that makes people self conscious of confessing that they are lost. I've been lost, not plesant and I ended up calling a local radar service for VDF and subsequent QDM home.
As with all these unplanned learning experiences, it was not one event that contributed to me getting lost there were lots of little circumstances: distracted with instructing, instructing GH in a rather featureless area (which I was new to - 2nd day), ADF failure, turning back towards the airfield to discover vis was about 4 km in haze into sun. Of course my inattention to nav was significantly contributing. Suffice to say I learnt a lot more about flying on that trip than many countless others.
In flying you will fit into one of two categories: Those that have, and those that will! Don't assume you are invincible.
GQ
Also if I really thought I was lost, I would make a Pan call. I agree that someone attempting to use 121.5 because they actually can't navigate efficiently should either retrain or question their motives very carefully.
As with all these unplanned learning experiences, it was not one event that contributed to me getting lost there were lots of little circumstances: distracted with instructing, instructing GH in a rather featureless area (which I was new to - 2nd day), ADF failure, turning back towards the airfield to discover vis was about 4 km in haze into sun. Of course my inattention to nav was significantly contributing. Suffice to say I learnt a lot more about flying on that trip than many countless others.
In flying you will fit into one of two categories: Those that have, and those that will! Don't assume you are invincible.
GQ
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GuinnessQueen
The last thing I want to do is make anyone feel self conscious enough to not use everything at their disposal if lost or unsure of position. My meaning was more about people thinking there is always an easy way out. There is no easy way when flying and navigation is a skill that we always try to hone. GPS systems can have duff batteries. Electrical systems can fail, but an aircraft remains airbourne.
I am no expert and I have found myself unsure of position in the past. After my initial concern I went back to basics and resolved the issue. I would not hesitate to contact D & D if necessay.
The last thing I want to do is make anyone feel self conscious enough to not use everything at their disposal if lost or unsure of position. My meaning was more about people thinking there is always an easy way out. There is no easy way when flying and navigation is a skill that we always try to hone. GPS systems can have duff batteries. Electrical systems can fail, but an aircraft remains airbourne.
I am no expert and I have found myself unsure of position in the past. After my initial concern I went back to basics and resolved the issue. I would not hesitate to contact D & D if necessay.
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If you're lost, please call us on 121.5MHz.
If you think that you might be lost, the same applies. I don't see any point in carrying on hoping that you see something that you recognize.
If you're lost and call for a training fix, or a practise PAN saying that you're temporarily uncertain of position, unless you're a good actor or practise making calls on 121.5 very often, we'll know you're actually lost. You can tell by the voice!
If you call for a trg fix, either using DF or radar, you'll be given your position relative to the nearest large town and asked whether you require any further assistance.
If you tell me that you're lost I'll tell you all the above, but will radar identify you (if I can) to make sure that everyone else stays out of your way. I can give you a radar service or organize one for you. I can start tying your position in to what you can see out of the window so that you can start re-gaining your situational awareness.
It is not a sign of weakness or anything else if you call us on 121.5. Do I like the idea of people calling practise PANs on 121.5MHz? Yes I do; however, I am mindful of the arguments against it by the GAT fraternity. There is an obvious solution to the problem which has been suggested before. But until you GA guys (who have a big voice) and the GAT guys start asking for it, there won't be a solution.
Happy flying!
If you think that you might be lost, the same applies. I don't see any point in carrying on hoping that you see something that you recognize.
If you're lost and call for a training fix, or a practise PAN saying that you're temporarily uncertain of position, unless you're a good actor or practise making calls on 121.5 very often, we'll know you're actually lost. You can tell by the voice!
If you call for a trg fix, either using DF or radar, you'll be given your position relative to the nearest large town and asked whether you require any further assistance.
If you tell me that you're lost I'll tell you all the above, but will radar identify you (if I can) to make sure that everyone else stays out of your way. I can give you a radar service or organize one for you. I can start tying your position in to what you can see out of the window so that you can start re-gaining your situational awareness.
It is not a sign of weakness or anything else if you call us on 121.5. Do I like the idea of people calling practise PANs on 121.5MHz? Yes I do; however, I am mindful of the arguments against it by the GAT fraternity. There is an obvious solution to the problem which has been suggested before. But until you GA guys (who have a big voice) and the GAT guys start asking for it, there won't be a solution.
Happy flying!
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A friend of mine qualified with an NPPL last year and appeared not to know how to operate VOR or ADF equipment. Is this normal for NPPLs? (I know it's not a good idea!) There's no way he'd be doing a VOR cross-cut when lost...
Tim
Tim
There are PLENTY of people learning to fly every week who will conduct Training Fixes with their instructor. I REALLY don't think there is any mileage in the argument that you are helping out D&D with their currency in making Training Fix calls when in fact you are LOST.
By all means use D&D when lost just DON'T try and disguise the fact by LYING and asking for a Training Fix.
This just goes to underline the poor quality of training received by many PPLs who seemingly think its somehow 'better' to disguise the fact that they are lost with D&D. What the heck were their instructors teaching them?! That D&D are some facist CAA narks just waiting to punish them for being lost in the first place?!?
This culture of Training Fix should not be tolerated and I encourage all PPL's to condemn it in their peers. If someone feels in some way inhibited in admitting to D&D that he is lost then he/she needs a slight re-education. NOT to be encouraged into thinking being sly about it is a good way around the problem: there is no problem!
What next? Turning off your transponder if you think you've bust controlled airspace? Asking for 15 degrees to the left to avoid weather that isn't there? Following IR minimas when you only hold an IMC rating? Flying out of club currency and forgetting to mention it?
Come on chaps.
WWW
By all means use D&D when lost just DON'T try and disguise the fact by LYING and asking for a Training Fix.
This just goes to underline the poor quality of training received by many PPLs who seemingly think its somehow 'better' to disguise the fact that they are lost with D&D. What the heck were their instructors teaching them?! That D&D are some facist CAA narks just waiting to punish them for being lost in the first place?!?
This culture of Training Fix should not be tolerated and I encourage all PPL's to condemn it in their peers. If someone feels in some way inhibited in admitting to D&D that he is lost then he/she needs a slight re-education. NOT to be encouraged into thinking being sly about it is a good way around the problem: there is no problem!
What next? Turning off your transponder if you think you've bust controlled airspace? Asking for 15 degrees to the left to avoid weather that isn't there? Following IR minimas when you only hold an IMC rating? Flying out of club currency and forgetting to mention it?
Come on chaps.
WWW
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"I'd make it an offence for anyone without an FI Rating to ask for a training fix. In fact I am writing to the CAA SRG today to ask for that to become a UK rule."
WWW - I agree with everything you say but this.
Pilots are responsible professional people (and I know their might be the odd exception). Making sure you are familiar with how to make a call to D and D, etc is as much a part of currency as PFLs.
It is a fact that their are many pilots who have never been asked to obtain a training fix and probably never will be at their renewals (I know it has never come up for me when I have done my renewals). For that reason when I do a group check with another pilot I always cover the topic.
By all means when you do renewals with pilots train them how to request a training fix correctly but PLEASE dont use the cop out you propose!
Oh and "Following IR minimas when you only hold an IMC rating?" - now come on I hope you are only referring to the legal distinctions between and IMC and IR and not the RECOMMENDED minimas - quite different things as I am sure you are aware and one on which surprisingly far too many instructors seem to be confused.
WWW - I agree with everything you say but this.
Pilots are responsible professional people (and I know their might be the odd exception). Making sure you are familiar with how to make a call to D and D, etc is as much a part of currency as PFLs.
It is a fact that their are many pilots who have never been asked to obtain a training fix and probably never will be at their renewals (I know it has never come up for me when I have done my renewals). For that reason when I do a group check with another pilot I always cover the topic.
By all means when you do renewals with pilots train them how to request a training fix correctly but PLEASE dont use the cop out you propose!
Oh and "Following IR minimas when you only hold an IMC rating?" - now come on I hope you are only referring to the legal distinctions between and IMC and IR and not the RECOMMENDED minimas - quite different things as I am sure you are aware and one on which surprisingly far too many instructors seem to be confused.
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WWW
At what stage does a pilot become lost?
You seem to be incapable of understanding that (a) I agree with you about 'fessing up immediately if lost, but (b) recognize a situation which is not lost, but becoming concerned about maintaining positional awareness based on the current situation, i.e. flying into increasing haze and having difficulty seeing the features ahead that would relate to the map.
So when does the pilot become lost? 10 minutes after the last firm fix against feaures, 11, 12 13?????? After all, the pilot has a VFR log that is up to date and has worked so far.
It seems to be that you are suggesting that someone should plough ahead and only deal with the situation when lost, by which time CAS may have been bust (an offence) or some other damage done.
Frankly, I think that your attitude is remarkable for a professional pilot and shows very limited capability of differentiation between the shades of grey that are present in life.
There is a great deal of difference, IMHO, between LYING about being LOST and using a training fix to avoid becoming lost.
The two things are subtly different.
I have used the training fix approach once since 1994 and never bust CAS, despite a lot of xc around the Stansted zone.
Its a record I am proud of and I believe that your thinking is flawed.
Whcih if these is offically sanctioned? More illogical and inflammatory comment.
At what stage does a pilot become lost?
You seem to be incapable of understanding that (a) I agree with you about 'fessing up immediately if lost, but (b) recognize a situation which is not lost, but becoming concerned about maintaining positional awareness based on the current situation, i.e. flying into increasing haze and having difficulty seeing the features ahead that would relate to the map.
So when does the pilot become lost? 10 minutes after the last firm fix against feaures, 11, 12 13?????? After all, the pilot has a VFR log that is up to date and has worked so far.
It seems to be that you are suggesting that someone should plough ahead and only deal with the situation when lost, by which time CAS may have been bust (an offence) or some other damage done.
Frankly, I think that your attitude is remarkable for a professional pilot and shows very limited capability of differentiation between the shades of grey that are present in life.
There is a great deal of difference, IMHO, between LYING about being LOST and using a training fix to avoid becoming lost.
The two things are subtly different.
I have used the training fix approach once since 1994 and never bust CAS, despite a lot of xc around the Stansted zone.
Its a record I am proud of and I believe that your thinking is flawed.
What next? Turning off your transponder if you think you've bust controlled airspace? Asking for 15 degrees to the left to avoid weather that isn't there? Following IR minimas when you only hold an IMC rating? Flying out of club currency and forgetting to mention it?
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WWW
I think you should cool down a bit.
What does the above mean? Please read the ANO. The IMCR minima are the same as the IR minima, except for 1800m min met vis for the IMCR.
I know there are recommendations to increase the mins to 500/600ft but they rank alongside recommendations to not use a GPS (it is the work of the devil), to not navigate with a rubber duck floating in a bucket, to not fly into hills (but a CFIT without the use of a GPS is permitted), not twiddle with knobs and look out of the window instead, etc.
The problem with criticising the standard of training in one area, or for a particular Rating, is that you then need to take matters to their ultimate logical conclusion and shut down PPL training in the UK, because, frankly, most of it is c**p and very poorly serves the customers who do not discover until it is too late that they can't really fly anywhere useful and even if they could they can't do it in the wreckage which they can rent off their training establishment.
I have only 500hrs but have never been uncertain of pos for a millisecond, anywhere I've been to in Europe. If aeroplanes were invented today, there wouldn't be D&D on 121.50 because nobody would need to call it. The whole system exists because of the WW1 training which pretends that dead reckoning is good airmanship and anything else is just not cricket...
I think you should cool down a bit.
Following IR minimas when you only hold an IMC rating?
I know there are recommendations to increase the mins to 500/600ft but they rank alongside recommendations to not use a GPS (it is the work of the devil), to not navigate with a rubber duck floating in a bucket, to not fly into hills (but a CFIT without the use of a GPS is permitted), not twiddle with knobs and look out of the window instead, etc.
The problem with criticising the standard of training in one area, or for a particular Rating, is that you then need to take matters to their ultimate logical conclusion and shut down PPL training in the UK, because, frankly, most of it is c**p and very poorly serves the customers who do not discover until it is too late that they can't really fly anywhere useful and even if they could they can't do it in the wreckage which they can rent off their training establishment.
I have only 500hrs but have never been uncertain of pos for a millisecond, anywhere I've been to in Europe. If aeroplanes were invented today, there wouldn't be D&D on 121.50 because nobody would need to call it. The whole system exists because of the WW1 training which pretends that dead reckoning is good airmanship and anything else is just not cricket...
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E 'R' Us said:
Excellent! Does this get taken into account when you log the calls, so that you publish statistics of "claimed" really lost calls against "actual" really lost calls?
If so, what are the numbers? - I've always wondered what proportion of "Practice PAN - temporarily uncertain of position" calls actually meant "er, I'm a bit lost".
If you're lost and call for a training fix, or a practise PAN saying that you're temporarily uncertain of position, unless you're a good actor or practise making calls on 121.5 very often, we'll know you're actually lost. You can tell by the voice!
If so, what are the numbers? - I've always wondered what proportion of "Practice PAN - temporarily uncertain of position" calls actually meant "er, I'm a bit lost".
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You don't have to be really, horribly, totally lost to call D & D. Simply call them and tell them you're uncertain of your position, and they'll tell you where you are. They don't bite, or put a black mark against your name, or call you a Bad Pilot. There is no shame in it. You can do it every week if you like, or if you need to.
What WWW is objecting to - and I agree - is lying about it. A training fix means you want to practise talking to them etc, a PAN call means you're doing it for real. And I really, really cannot see any good reason to lie about something that happens to the best of us.
So will one of you who's spoken out in support of asking for a training fix, please tell me why you consider lying better than honesty in this situation.
What WWW is objecting to - and I agree - is lying about it. A training fix means you want to practise talking to them etc, a PAN call means you're doing it for real. And I really, really cannot see any good reason to lie about something that happens to the best of us.
So will one of you who's spoken out in support of asking for a training fix, please tell me why you consider lying better than honesty in this situation.
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Whirlybird
Quote from CAP413
Lying?
Looks to me like following CAP 413 and using standard phraseology, which is usually agreed to reduce misunderstandings.
As E & R says call them for a training fix and they tell you where you are. If you sound stressed out, they'll know.
When I called them, they gave me a position relative to Bishops Stortford, I confirmed my position, made sure I avoided the STN zone and off I went. Sorted, with minimum fuss and in compliance with the rules.
After your comment on another thread about taxiing fast enough to test your ASI (I believe it starts at 40 kts on a C150) and this comment, I'm getting a bit worried about you.
ANyway, that's my last post on this subject.
You don't have to be really, horribly, totally lost to call D & D. Simply call them and tell them you're uncertain of your position, and they'll tell you where you are
Pilots who do not wish to carry out a practice emergency but only wish to confirm their position may request a ‘Training Fix’ on 121.5 MHz. This ‘Training Fix’ is secondary in importance to actual emergency calls but takes precedence over practice emergency calls in the event of simultaneous incidents.
So will one of you who's spoken out in support of asking for a training fix, please tell me why you consider lying better
Looks to me like following CAP 413 and using standard phraseology, which is usually agreed to reduce misunderstandings.
As E & R says call them for a training fix and they tell you where you are. If you sound stressed out, they'll know.
When I called them, they gave me a position relative to Bishops Stortford, I confirmed my position, made sure I avoided the STN zone and off I went. Sorted, with minimum fuss and in compliance with the rules.
After your comment on another thread about taxiing fast enough to test your ASI (I believe it starts at 40 kts on a C150) and this comment, I'm getting a bit worried about you.
ANyway, that's my last post on this subject.
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 7th Sep 2005 at 21:08.
Whirlbird has it right. More to come.
WWW
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As E & R says call them for a training fix and they tell you where you are. If you sound stressed out, they'll know.
I don't think that banning anyone except instructors from calling is a good idea, it is a procedure like any other and needs to be practiced every so often.
If you are lost, call D&D and let them know, if you are training, then use a training fix. It's not rocket science and there is no room for interpretation.
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Pilots who do not wish to carry out a practice emergency but only wish to confirm their position may request a ‘Training Fix’ on 121.5 MHz.
a) I'm pretty sure that town is X, but I think I'll check and confirm it - confirming your position.
b) Things don't make sense; I'm really not sure where I am, but I knew where I was five minutes ago, so I can't be too far off course - being unsure of your position.
OK, there may be a grey area in between sometimes, but not usually.
After your comment on another thread about taxiing fast enough to test your ASI (I believe it starts at 40 kts on a C150) and this comment, I'm getting a bit worried about you.