Training fixes
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What WWW is objecting to - and I agree - is lying about it.
Why dont we read what is written.
www said no training fixes without a fi aboard in response to which their was universal dissent. No one supports lieing when seriously lost.
www is a fi and yet argues an important safety procedure should not be routinely rehersed in spite of the caps. In my book that is the real worry. We should perhaps question the training of fis
Why dont we read what is written.
www said no training fixes without a fi aboard in response to which their was universal dissent. No one supports lieing when seriously lost.
www is a fi and yet argues an important safety procedure should not be routinely rehersed in spite of the caps. In my book that is the real worry. We should perhaps question the training of fis
Christ on a bike how hard is it to dial 121.5 and say the words "Pan Pan Pan I am lost"?!?!
You DON'T need to practice that! Its only speaking out loud!
What you are doing by cluttering up 121.5 is making hundreds of airliner pilots who can hear you from 250 mile radius reach down and deselect Guard. It can then be some time, if ever, before they return to monitor the frequency. Which can and does result in armed fighters being scrambled at the speed of heat into controlled and busy airspace.
I've no obejection to GA on 121.5 if they are Lost. You are not slightly unsure of your position, you are not confirming where you think you are. You are in fact unable to tell me with 100% confidence that that town is Bishops Stortford and that your aircraft is exactly here on the map. You are therefore LOST.
Its no shameful thing - heck I've been more lost and more scared about it than any of you on this thread. I've used 121.5 thousands of times for training and for really real. I've made two Pan calls in the last 10 weeks.
But I object to it being abused and cluttered up by people who are in fact lying. Get a LARS, learn to use the navaids or buy a GPS.
Cheers
WWW
ps I'm quite cheerful really :-)
You DON'T need to practice that! Its only speaking out loud!
What you are doing by cluttering up 121.5 is making hundreds of airliner pilots who can hear you from 250 mile radius reach down and deselect Guard. It can then be some time, if ever, before they return to monitor the frequency. Which can and does result in armed fighters being scrambled at the speed of heat into controlled and busy airspace.
I've no obejection to GA on 121.5 if they are Lost. You are not slightly unsure of your position, you are not confirming where you think you are. You are in fact unable to tell me with 100% confidence that that town is Bishops Stortford and that your aircraft is exactly here on the map. You are therefore LOST.
Its no shameful thing - heck I've been more lost and more scared about it than any of you on this thread. I've used 121.5 thousands of times for training and for really real. I've made two Pan calls in the last 10 weeks.
But I object to it being abused and cluttered up by people who are in fact lying. Get a LARS, learn to use the navaids or buy a GPS.
Cheers
WWW
ps I'm quite cheerful really :-)
Guest
Posts: n/a
WWW
I wasn't going to post again, but cannot resist pointing out a couple of major defects in your thinking.
In case you haven't noticed, the UK rules provide for training fix, airlines who wish to operate in UK airspace must accept the rules in the same way that UK airlines operating abroad must comply locally. Sorry, but that is the way it is and part of being a professional in any field is working around constraints.
Secondly, what is the extra impact of a training fix versus a practice pan or a pan? All three occupy the frequency. What you are implying is that you and your fellow sky gods should judge the appropriateness of RT use in the UK and not the CAA. That's egotistical and unbalanced thinking.
And finally, please explain how one can see Bishops Stortford at 14KM when the vis in haze is 8km - I did mention the masking effect of weather in my earlier post, or did you not read it properly? If one can't see it, one can't visually identify it and one therefore can't confirm one's position against it - what is your problem understanding this concept? Over the featureless terrain near STN, haze can be problematic and there is a history of zone busts that the CAA considers may be due, at least in part, to the lack of surface features.
That doesn't mean I am lost, it means that every 30 seconds takes me nearly 1NM nearer to the STN zone and there are no local features to take a fix from to update my vfr log. Is it good airmanship to plough on and risk busting the zone and committing a crimninal offence as well as possibly affecting safety?
So I call 121.5, say "G-XXXX training fix, training fix, training fix" and they say "G-XXXX you are XX miles XXX of Bishops Stortford." We must have occupied the 121.5 frequency for all of 10-15 seconds. If I had done a PAN PAN PAN, I would have had to pass a lot more details, taking more time and possibly getting nearer to a zone bust, as well as cluttering the frequency for longer.
If D&D had said "no can do training fix", I would have orbited and then made a "PAN" call, since I would then have lost confidence in my ability to maintain positional awareness, i.e. the risk of becoming lost would have just escalated significantly.
I find that I am within 1/2 a mile of where my vfr chart/flight log says, well outside the zone, restart my stopwatch correct my WCA and proceed on course, legally, safely and with the minimum of fuss.
The guys at D&D said it was a good use of the training fix scheme, so what precisely is your problem with a pilot doing this ONCE in 11 years?
For your information -
- there was no LARS available in 1994 in that area
- the aircraft was a club hack with no navaids, not even an ADF and navaids were not on the PPL syllabus
- GPS was not widely available in 1994, I did not have one
Now tell me again HOW I was LYING in using a training fix?
I wasn't going to post again, but cannot resist pointing out a couple of major defects in your thinking.
What you are doing by cluttering up 121.5 is making hundreds of airliner pilots who can hear you from 250 mile radius reach down and deselect Guard
Secondly, what is the extra impact of a training fix versus a practice pan or a pan? All three occupy the frequency. What you are implying is that you and your fellow sky gods should judge the appropriateness of RT use in the UK and not the CAA. That's egotistical and unbalanced thinking.
And finally, please explain how one can see Bishops Stortford at 14KM when the vis in haze is 8km - I did mention the masking effect of weather in my earlier post, or did you not read it properly? If one can't see it, one can't visually identify it and one therefore can't confirm one's position against it - what is your problem understanding this concept? Over the featureless terrain near STN, haze can be problematic and there is a history of zone busts that the CAA considers may be due, at least in part, to the lack of surface features.
That doesn't mean I am lost, it means that every 30 seconds takes me nearly 1NM nearer to the STN zone and there are no local features to take a fix from to update my vfr log. Is it good airmanship to plough on and risk busting the zone and committing a crimninal offence as well as possibly affecting safety?
So I call 121.5, say "G-XXXX training fix, training fix, training fix" and they say "G-XXXX you are XX miles XXX of Bishops Stortford." We must have occupied the 121.5 frequency for all of 10-15 seconds. If I had done a PAN PAN PAN, I would have had to pass a lot more details, taking more time and possibly getting nearer to a zone bust, as well as cluttering the frequency for longer.
If D&D had said "no can do training fix", I would have orbited and then made a "PAN" call, since I would then have lost confidence in my ability to maintain positional awareness, i.e. the risk of becoming lost would have just escalated significantly.
I find that I am within 1/2 a mile of where my vfr chart/flight log says, well outside the zone, restart my stopwatch correct my WCA and proceed on course, legally, safely and with the minimum of fuss.
The guys at D&D said it was a good use of the training fix scheme, so what precisely is your problem with a pilot doing this ONCE in 11 years?
For your information -
- there was no LARS available in 1994 in that area
- the aircraft was a club hack with no navaids, not even an ADF and navaids were not on the PPL syllabus
- GPS was not widely available in 1994, I did not have one
Now tell me again HOW I was LYING in using a training fix?
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WWW
I don't think a LARS unit is very happy with a pilot who is unable to navigate on his own. Sure they will help if asked though. But they tend to be busy enough.
Navaids are a bit of a problem. One can fly anywhere in Class G, and anywhere below Class A (VFR) with a clearance. One is outside the useful reception of a navaid, never mind within its DOC, over most of the UK surface, especially if pottering about at the low levels where many VFR pilots fly.
Yet, a PPL is legal to fly down to 3000m vis.
One can't really reconcile this, other than the usual "a PPL is only a licence to learn" statement.
The best thing the CAA could do for all this would be to make a decent size panel mounted GPS mandatory, and incorporate the training into the PPL. Not a lot of schools would like to pay for it though...
Get a LARS, learn to use the navaids or buy a GPS
Navaids are a bit of a problem. One can fly anywhere in Class G, and anywhere below Class A (VFR) with a clearance. One is outside the useful reception of a navaid, never mind within its DOC, over most of the UK surface, especially if pottering about at the low levels where many VFR pilots fly.
Yet, a PPL is legal to fly down to 3000m vis.
One can't really reconcile this, other than the usual "a PPL is only a licence to learn" statement.
The best thing the CAA could do for all this would be to make a decent size panel mounted GPS mandatory, and incorporate the training into the PPL. Not a lot of schools would like to pay for it though...
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: He's on the limb to nowhere
Posts: 1,981
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Who said it was ok to lie?
Emergencies R Us, in his excellent post, said call him whenever you feel the need, and even if you don't think you need. As I always consider the people on the ground 'own' the frequency that is good enough for me. No doubt there is some recent rule which says airline pilots should monitor 121.5 at all times, and not when it suits them.
Emergencies R Us, in his excellent post, said call him whenever you feel the need, and even if you don't think you need. As I always consider the people on the ground 'own' the frequency that is good enough for me. No doubt there is some recent rule which says airline pilots should monitor 121.5 at all times, and not when it suits them.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“Christ on a bike how hard is it to dial 121.5 and say the words "Pan Pan Pan I am lost"?!?!”
On an aircraft I fly, with a new Narco box, if you select 121.5 they can hear you fine, but you cannot hear them. The same problem arises with Gatwick. I gather the reason is that D and D as Gatwick use multiple aerials and their frequency is not as tightly controlled as Narco would like! Pulling out the volume control to prevent the frequency clipping on transmission solves the problem. Now whilst that particular problem might be unusual it equally might only come to light on a practice fix.
Also it is surprising how many pilots have never done a training fix. As you well know D and D if asked and can accommodate you will go on to give you a series of steers. In my opinion it is worth refreshing yourself on the whole procedure again from time to time, maybe in poor viz and with a safety pilot to see how a non instrument rated pilots gets on. After all that is exactly the circumstances in which you might want to use the service in earnest. It is no good saying that is the sort of thing you should only be doing with a FI because there are a lot of very good groups out there where the pilots do continuation training together and it works very well.
I also agree it is one thing to be seriously lost (which hopefully very rarely happens!) And to not be as certain of your position as you would like particularly when navigating tightly controlled airspace. As others have said surely it is better to make use of the service without declaring a Pan.
My real point earlier though was why an earth propose yet another regulation as if pilots call for training fixes with the sole intention of making a nuisance of themselves. I can not imagine that very many do. Surely it is far better to educate pilots in the correct use of both training fixes and “I am lost” than expand yet further the law book as if it was a panacea for every perceived evil.
Finally it really concerns me when these sort of suggestions are put forward when it would seem they appear to have been so ill thought through. Before I wrote suggesting a change in the legislation I would want to have some idea what D and D actually thought of the proposal and whether they REALLY find all these calls a nuisance, how many so called training fixes do they get from pilots really lost, how many airline captains are complaining about all the chatter on 121.5 etc etc. I don’t know any of the answers but I would want to find out before posting that I am writing to ask the ANO be changed!
Legislative impact assessments - poppy cock - we will sort out the mess latter!
On an aircraft I fly, with a new Narco box, if you select 121.5 they can hear you fine, but you cannot hear them. The same problem arises with Gatwick. I gather the reason is that D and D as Gatwick use multiple aerials and their frequency is not as tightly controlled as Narco would like! Pulling out the volume control to prevent the frequency clipping on transmission solves the problem. Now whilst that particular problem might be unusual it equally might only come to light on a practice fix.
Also it is surprising how many pilots have never done a training fix. As you well know D and D if asked and can accommodate you will go on to give you a series of steers. In my opinion it is worth refreshing yourself on the whole procedure again from time to time, maybe in poor viz and with a safety pilot to see how a non instrument rated pilots gets on. After all that is exactly the circumstances in which you might want to use the service in earnest. It is no good saying that is the sort of thing you should only be doing with a FI because there are a lot of very good groups out there where the pilots do continuation training together and it works very well.
I also agree it is one thing to be seriously lost (which hopefully very rarely happens!) And to not be as certain of your position as you would like particularly when navigating tightly controlled airspace. As others have said surely it is better to make use of the service without declaring a Pan.
My real point earlier though was why an earth propose yet another regulation as if pilots call for training fixes with the sole intention of making a nuisance of themselves. I can not imagine that very many do. Surely it is far better to educate pilots in the correct use of both training fixes and “I am lost” than expand yet further the law book as if it was a panacea for every perceived evil.
Finally it really concerns me when these sort of suggestions are put forward when it would seem they appear to have been so ill thought through. Before I wrote suggesting a change in the legislation I would want to have some idea what D and D actually thought of the proposal and whether they REALLY find all these calls a nuisance, how many so called training fixes do they get from pilots really lost, how many airline captains are complaining about all the chatter on 121.5 etc etc. I don’t know any of the answers but I would want to find out before posting that I am writing to ask the ANO be changed!
Legislative impact assessments - poppy cock - we will sort out the mess latter!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Leicestershire
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is true that there should be no place for ego on the flight deck, but that ignores reality. The reality is that people care about what other people think about them. Society and social pressures have a great impact on us in all aspects of our lives and to single out one specific situation and say that on the flight deck it doesn’t matter what others think is unrealistic. There are many examples of this in the accident reports ranging from low-hours PPLs doing low-level aerobatics to impress their friends to high-hour airline co-pilots who would rather keep quiet and risk death rather than saying something to the captain – the 1977 Tenerife disaster with the greatest aviation loss of life is an example of this.
There are also different degrees of ‘being lost’. Just because you don’t know where you are doesn’t mean you’re lost. I don’t know where my car-keys are at the moment – they could be in one of several places, but it would be wrong to say that I’ve lost them. Pilotage and dead-reckoning involves position fixes about every 10 minutes with a period of uncertainty between these fixes. It would be wrong to say you were ‘lost’ between these fixes even though you might not know precisely where you are.
Put these two aspects together. Consider a young low-hours PPL who’s just got his license and is taking his new girlfriend out for her first flight. Everything was going well until a few minutes ago when he couldn’t make that last position fix – which was 10 minutes after his previous position fix. So he’s feeling a little uneasy because that means it’s now 15 minutes ago when he knew where he was. Uneasy, but he doesn’t feel that one missed position fix means he’s lost. One thing he really doesn’t want to do is get onto Distress and Diversion and say ‘I’m lost’! This is the first time he’s taken his girlfriend out flying and what will she think! She’s nervous enough as it is and she’ll never go flying with him again if that happened! Those dreams of flying holidays to France go right down the pan with that one press of the PTT button.
How much easier is it for him to get onto D+D and get a training fix? Confirming your position is a perfectly proper use of the service and that’s all he really wants because he’s not lost – he just couldn’t find that last position fix. It’s even easier for him to do if he’s asked for a training fix in the past when he knew exactly where he was and so has some experience of talking to London Centre. It may be that the position fix will not confirm his position, but confirm that he’s lost and he’ll be able to inform D+D of this and ask for further assistance, but at least he’ll know and know earlier than if he’d kept quiet.
I’ve only ever spoken to London Centre once. One lazy evening when I was just to the north of the Severn estuary with no-one in particular to talk to, I thought about this Training Fix advice and I thought I’d give it a go – and the chaps at London Centre were great! It was so easy, so un-stressed and I won’t hesitate to talk to them again if required.
My reasoning was that I’ve never spoken to D+D so I gave them a call and ask for a Training Fix. That way I’ve spoken to them once and in the future if the chips are down and I do have a real problem at least it’ll be one less thing I’m doing for the first time. Yet again it’s a perfectly proper use of the service and I’m sure one Training Fix once in a flying career won’t cause too many missed clearances for the airlines (besides they’re the main uses of 121.5. Sometimes it sounds like a fencing competition the number of people who are on there saying ‘on guard’!)
Also in future I will ask for a training fix if I am a little uncertain and I want confirmation of my position – and I’ll do it early rather than waiting until I am lost. I doubt it will ever happen because my GPS, nav-aids and my general navigation skill means that I nearly always know where I am, but it’s nice to know it’s there if needed.
There are also different degrees of ‘being lost’. Just because you don’t know where you are doesn’t mean you’re lost. I don’t know where my car-keys are at the moment – they could be in one of several places, but it would be wrong to say that I’ve lost them. Pilotage and dead-reckoning involves position fixes about every 10 minutes with a period of uncertainty between these fixes. It would be wrong to say you were ‘lost’ between these fixes even though you might not know precisely where you are.
Put these two aspects together. Consider a young low-hours PPL who’s just got his license and is taking his new girlfriend out for her first flight. Everything was going well until a few minutes ago when he couldn’t make that last position fix – which was 10 minutes after his previous position fix. So he’s feeling a little uneasy because that means it’s now 15 minutes ago when he knew where he was. Uneasy, but he doesn’t feel that one missed position fix means he’s lost. One thing he really doesn’t want to do is get onto Distress and Diversion and say ‘I’m lost’! This is the first time he’s taken his girlfriend out flying and what will she think! She’s nervous enough as it is and she’ll never go flying with him again if that happened! Those dreams of flying holidays to France go right down the pan with that one press of the PTT button.
How much easier is it for him to get onto D+D and get a training fix? Confirming your position is a perfectly proper use of the service and that’s all he really wants because he’s not lost – he just couldn’t find that last position fix. It’s even easier for him to do if he’s asked for a training fix in the past when he knew exactly where he was and so has some experience of talking to London Centre. It may be that the position fix will not confirm his position, but confirm that he’s lost and he’ll be able to inform D+D of this and ask for further assistance, but at least he’ll know and know earlier than if he’d kept quiet.
I’ve only ever spoken to London Centre once. One lazy evening when I was just to the north of the Severn estuary with no-one in particular to talk to, I thought about this Training Fix advice and I thought I’d give it a go – and the chaps at London Centre were great! It was so easy, so un-stressed and I won’t hesitate to talk to them again if required.
My reasoning was that I’ve never spoken to D+D so I gave them a call and ask for a Training Fix. That way I’ve spoken to them once and in the future if the chips are down and I do have a real problem at least it’ll be one less thing I’m doing for the first time. Yet again it’s a perfectly proper use of the service and I’m sure one Training Fix once in a flying career won’t cause too many missed clearances for the airlines (besides they’re the main uses of 121.5. Sometimes it sounds like a fencing competition the number of people who are on there saying ‘on guard’!)
Also in future I will ask for a training fix if I am a little uncertain and I want confirmation of my position – and I’ll do it early rather than waiting until I am lost. I doubt it will ever happen because my GPS, nav-aids and my general navigation skill means that I nearly always know where I am, but it’s nice to know it’s there if needed.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Romeo Romeo
I wish I had used your elegant simple words 
Pilotage and dead-reckoning involves position fixes about every 10 minutes with a period of uncertainty between these fixes. It would be wrong to say you were ‘lost’ between these fixes even though you might not know precisely where you are.
The first link in the chain of an horrendous accident killing hundreds could well be that 50 minutes earlier Commander Boeing deselected 121.5 due to the incessant clamour of training fix requests (it was a hazy summer Saturday in the UK).
On Gin clear days you hear few Training Fix calls. On Hazy days you get loads and the reason is obviously NOT that everyone just decides to 'practice' talking to D&D - its because dozens of PPL's are Lost or Temporarily Unsure of Position or whatever euphenism you want to use. Rather than 'fess up they try to imply they are not actually unsure of anything but merely wish to practice an r/t procedure.
A GPS is now under £100 and would allow you to stop blocking what is a very important communication channel. I know you might only use it for 30 seconds and it sound quiet when you tune in. But honestly some days its an almost torrent of Practice Pans and Training Fixes. You Can't put up with it interfering with you actual r/t and so 121.5 gets deselected.
I wish for the CAA to conduct enquiries about how common this is and then I expect they will tackle the level of 121.5 useage in the UK FIR. You don't get it in other countries airspace. We are a little unusual in that respect.
Cheers
WWW
On Gin clear days you hear few Training Fix calls. On Hazy days you get loads and the reason is obviously NOT that everyone just decides to 'practice' talking to D&D - its because dozens of PPL's are Lost or Temporarily Unsure of Position or whatever euphenism you want to use. Rather than 'fess up they try to imply they are not actually unsure of anything but merely wish to practice an r/t procedure.
A GPS is now under £100 and would allow you to stop blocking what is a very important communication channel. I know you might only use it for 30 seconds and it sound quiet when you tune in. But honestly some days its an almost torrent of Practice Pans and Training Fixes. You Can't put up with it interfering with you actual r/t and so 121.5 gets deselected.
I wish for the CAA to conduct enquiries about how common this is and then I expect they will tackle the level of 121.5 useage in the UK FIR. You don't get it in other countries airspace. We are a little unusual in that respect.
Cheers
WWW
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,574
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
WWW
Horse****? I think (especially as) as a moderator you have rather gone over the top on this one. If I berated yourself using such language I could expect to be at least moderated or even banned.
Firstly, without doubt, the most common cause of clutter on 121.5 these days is caused by "professional" airline pilots calling on the distress frequency instead of the frequency they should be on. This is compounded by other (often same company) pilots telling them they are on 121.5. Both are inappropriate use of the frequency, highly unprofessional, because neither are entitled to use 121.5 in this manner.
Secondly, a student pilot (or any other) asking for a training fix gets a position fix, full stop from D&D. A pilot making a "Pan" call and declaring himself lost (he might not be lost, just a little uncertain of a couple of position fixes) by definition gets much more D&D assistance, which actually ties up much far more air time.
A call made in good time, by a student pilot uncertain of position, using a training fix prefix (he would be perfectly entitled, the CAP reference has been quoted already) could well prevent a much more serious situation from developing. I think NO-ONE is condoning "lying"on the R/T, as per your accusation.
Please consider moderating your own post and language in this respect.
As for your last post "The first link in the chain of an horrendous accident killing hundreds could well be that 50 minutes earlier Commander Boeing deselected 121.5 due to the incessant clamour of training fix requests (it was a hazy summer Saturday in the Uk"
You cannot be serious. What evidence of this is there? Rather like an inexperienced car driver making an incorrect indicator selection at a roundabout and being accused of causing a motorway pileup 50 minutes later?
BTW, GPS is not authorised for primary navigation by the CAA in UK. To condone its use for primary navigation in an emergency, in preference to the official D&D service is surely incorrect.
Horse****? I think (especially as) as a moderator you have rather gone over the top on this one. If I berated yourself using such language I could expect to be at least moderated or even banned.
Firstly, without doubt, the most common cause of clutter on 121.5 these days is caused by "professional" airline pilots calling on the distress frequency instead of the frequency they should be on. This is compounded by other (often same company) pilots telling them they are on 121.5. Both are inappropriate use of the frequency, highly unprofessional, because neither are entitled to use 121.5 in this manner.
Secondly, a student pilot (or any other) asking for a training fix gets a position fix, full stop from D&D. A pilot making a "Pan" call and declaring himself lost (he might not be lost, just a little uncertain of a couple of position fixes) by definition gets much more D&D assistance, which actually ties up much far more air time.
A call made in good time, by a student pilot uncertain of position, using a training fix prefix (he would be perfectly entitled, the CAP reference has been quoted already) could well prevent a much more serious situation from developing. I think NO-ONE is condoning "lying"on the R/T, as per your accusation.
Please consider moderating your own post and language in this respect.
As for your last post "The first link in the chain of an horrendous accident killing hundreds could well be that 50 minutes earlier Commander Boeing deselected 121.5 due to the incessant clamour of training fix requests (it was a hazy summer Saturday in the Uk"
You cannot be serious. What evidence of this is there? Rather like an inexperienced car driver making an incorrect indicator selection at a roundabout and being accused of causing a motorway pileup 50 minutes later?
BTW, GPS is not authorised for primary navigation by the CAA in UK. To condone its use for primary navigation in an emergency, in preference to the official D&D service is surely incorrect.
Last edited by ShyTorque; 10th Sep 2005 at 00:49.
Inadvertent transmission on 121.5 is just that and there is no solution to it.
A student pilot shouldn't be making a Training Fix call to 'verify' his position he should be making a Pan Lost call. This is the cancer that so annoys me. TRAINING fix - what does that imply to you? It implies to me that you know exactly where you are and wish to practice an r/t procedure. Unless a student is specifically instructed on his pre-solo brief to conduct such a practice then he or she should not be doing so. Frankly.
The evidence of the dangers of airliners not monitoring guard are numerous and self evident. God help the hapless GA pilot in a remote area outside range of D&D who COULD have been helped or relayed by an airliner above IF ONLY the pilot had not deselected 121.5 half an hour ago because some lying PPL was 'unsure of his postion' WHATEVER THE HECK THAT MEANS?!
Do you think scrambling fighters into congested airways poses no risk to flight safety? Do you think the masses of r/t and ATC Officer time consumed by an airliner going off frequency and NOT monitoring guard is anything other than to the detriment of flight safety. Its happening every day of every week and the reason is that 121.5 in the UK is grossly overused and ABUSED by the PPL community.
Frankly I think most PPLs think it interesting and stimulating to make a call to D&D. I know I used to get a kick out of it when I was a PPL and an Instrutor. But its really not necessary half the time and the other half its someone lost who is trying to disguise the fact with the bogus use of the words Training Fix.
An effective solution would be to change D&D procedure and make their intial response to a Training Fix call to be "Roger triangulation in process please state your position". In the case of a genuine Training Fix being required the student, PPL or instructor would respond "Position approx 2 miles North of Gloucester". D&D would then confirm that "your fix position indicated 4 miles North North West of Gloucester".
Either that or there would be an embarassed silence followed by a Pan call...
You don't get banned for saying horse**** - its a mild expletive that doesn't even generate asterisks and it accurately reflects my contempt of the defence of the ever increasing abuse of the Training Fix.
This is a flight safety issue.
Cheers
WWW
A student pilot shouldn't be making a Training Fix call to 'verify' his position he should be making a Pan Lost call. This is the cancer that so annoys me. TRAINING fix - what does that imply to you? It implies to me that you know exactly where you are and wish to practice an r/t procedure. Unless a student is specifically instructed on his pre-solo brief to conduct such a practice then he or she should not be doing so. Frankly.
The evidence of the dangers of airliners not monitoring guard are numerous and self evident. God help the hapless GA pilot in a remote area outside range of D&D who COULD have been helped or relayed by an airliner above IF ONLY the pilot had not deselected 121.5 half an hour ago because some lying PPL was 'unsure of his postion' WHATEVER THE HECK THAT MEANS?!
Do you think scrambling fighters into congested airways poses no risk to flight safety? Do you think the masses of r/t and ATC Officer time consumed by an airliner going off frequency and NOT monitoring guard is anything other than to the detriment of flight safety. Its happening every day of every week and the reason is that 121.5 in the UK is grossly overused and ABUSED by the PPL community.
Frankly I think most PPLs think it interesting and stimulating to make a call to D&D. I know I used to get a kick out of it when I was a PPL and an Instrutor. But its really not necessary half the time and the other half its someone lost who is trying to disguise the fact with the bogus use of the words Training Fix.
An effective solution would be to change D&D procedure and make their intial response to a Training Fix call to be "Roger triangulation in process please state your position". In the case of a genuine Training Fix being required the student, PPL or instructor would respond "Position approx 2 miles North of Gloucester". D&D would then confirm that "your fix position indicated 4 miles North North West of Gloucester".
Either that or there would be an embarassed silence followed by a Pan call...
You don't get banned for saying horse**** - its a mild expletive that doesn't even generate asterisks and it accurately reflects my contempt of the defence of the ever increasing abuse of the Training Fix.
This is a flight safety issue.
Cheers
WWW
I cannot see any justifiable reason for a 'Training Fix' on the D&D frequency to be made by anyone except either an instructor demonstrating the use of D&D or a trainee practising it under the supervision of the instructor.
If there really is a plethora of 'Training Fix' requests being made then a survey of a day's 121.5 calls would perhaps be useful?
If there really is a plethora of 'Training Fix' requests being made then a survey of a day's 121.5 calls would perhaps be useful?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Leicestershire
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As stated earlier, from CAP413:-
Also from the CAA D+D poster:-
Perhaps you can question the advice and maybe seek to get it changed, but berating pilots for following this official advice is perhaps unfair.
Pilots who do not wish to carry out a practice emergency but only wish to confirm their position may request a ‘Training Fix’ on 121.5 MHz. This ‘Training Fix’ is secondary in importance to actual emergency calls but takes precedence over practice emergency calls in the event of simultaneous incidents.
Practise as much as you want - it is free and one day may save your or another person’s life!
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GPS is not authorised for primary navigation by the CAA in UK
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20051970.htm
I'd be grateful if you would locate a reference for the above statement.
This disinformation has been around for as long as GPS. Please don't spread it further.
Improper use of 121.5 cannot be condoned. It does not belong to D&D, it is an international distress frequency.
A Training Fix is useful for both flight instructional and D&D training purposes - it is emphatically NOT a supplementary navigational technique for the inept.
If you are lost, admit it to yourself. Then, unless you're already working another unit, get onto 121.5 and admit it! It might cause some airliner-driver to have to turn down the second radio for a few minutes between waypoint watching, but better to disturb his hugely demanding day by calling 121.5 than to disturb it by blundering unannounced, uninvited and unwelcome into the approach path of the airport he's trying to land at.
D&D will be able to identify you and, if you need it, hand you off to another unit to give you any necessary navigational asistance.
Old-fashioned 'lost procedure' is increasingly becoming irrelevant in south central and south east UK due to the airspace complexity. So don't faff, call if you need to and don't pretend that you are only practising when in fact you need real assistance.
In the UK, GPS should be considered a supplementary VFR navigation aid unless the aircraft is fitted with an IFR-approved system. Even then it is an area navigation aid only and under no circumstances an approach aid. Yet......
A Training Fix is useful for both flight instructional and D&D training purposes - it is emphatically NOT a supplementary navigational technique for the inept.
If you are lost, admit it to yourself. Then, unless you're already working another unit, get onto 121.5 and admit it! It might cause some airliner-driver to have to turn down the second radio for a few minutes between waypoint watching, but better to disturb his hugely demanding day by calling 121.5 than to disturb it by blundering unannounced, uninvited and unwelcome into the approach path of the airport he's trying to land at.
D&D will be able to identify you and, if you need it, hand you off to another unit to give you any necessary navigational asistance.
Old-fashioned 'lost procedure' is increasingly becoming irrelevant in south central and south east UK due to the airspace complexity. So don't faff, call if you need to and don't pretend that you are only practising when in fact you need real assistance.
In the UK, GPS should be considered a supplementary VFR navigation aid unless the aircraft is fitted with an IFR-approved system. Even then it is an area navigation aid only and under no circumstances an approach aid. Yet......
Guest
Posts: n/a
BEagle
If LOST, yes, absolutely tell D&D immediately and make it clear. Any other action is foolhardy and threatening flight safety.
However, if you wish to CONFIRM POSITION and my interpretation of this is that it would be a very infrequent event for each pilot, the training fix process allows this and is promulgated as such. It seems to me that it breaks a link in a potential accident chain and if used with respect, then is an excellent facility.
With the very greatest of respect, 121.5 may be an internationally recognised frequency, but in UK jurisdiction, UK agencies decide the proper use of the radio frequencies.
If LOST, yes, absolutely tell D&D immediately and make it clear. Any other action is foolhardy and threatening flight safety.
However, if you wish to CONFIRM POSITION and my interpretation of this is that it would be a very infrequent event for each pilot, the training fix process allows this and is promulgated as such. It seems to me that it breaks a link in a potential accident chain and if used with respect, then is an excellent facility.
With the very greatest of respect, 121.5 may be an internationally recognised frequency, but in UK jurisdiction, UK agencies decide the proper use of the radio frequencies.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
An effective solution would be to change D&D procedure and make their intial response to a Training Fix call to be "Roger triangulation in process please state your position". In the case of a genuine Training Fix being required the student, PPL or instructor would respond "Position approx 2 miles North of Gloucester". D&D would then confirm that "your fix position indicated 4 miles North North West of Gloucester".
Old-fashioned 'lost procedure' is increasingly becoming irrelevant in south central and south east UK due to the airspace complexity.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Leicestershire
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CAP413 is quite clear. Pilots who
Dead reckoning - flying a heading and time in uncertain winds will by its definition result in an uncertain position, but this uncertainty does not mean you are lost. Pilotage is used to confirm your position at frequent intervals and so keep this uncertainty manageable. CAP413 quite clearly states that Training Fixes can also be used to confirm position.
I don't think anyone is advocating using a Training Fix often or when lost or lying on the radio but I don't think it is right to criticise pilots for using a facility as sanctioned in official documents.
If there is a problem then criticism should be directed at these official documents, not at those following them.
wish to confirm their position may request a ‘Training Fix’
I don't think anyone is advocating using a Training Fix often or when lost or lying on the radio but I don't think it is right to criticise pilots for using a facility as sanctioned in official documents.
If there is a problem then criticism should be directed at these official documents, not at those following them.