The PFA
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Locksmith
If you take away the couple of "hot shot" Lawyers and the mouthy "paddy" Mr Ringworm, the other "no brainers" are only jumping on the band wagon.
I think more members should be supporting the PFA instead of letting this lot destroy it.
If you take away the couple of "hot shot" Lawyers and the mouthy "paddy" Mr Ringworm, the other "no brainers" are only jumping on the band wagon.
I think more members should be supporting the PFA instead of letting this lot destroy it.
Not so N, but still FG
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I have not joined this thread before, but was tempted to do so when Stik posted this morning. Evo beat me to it in offering to second E2G for the EC, if he or she wishes to rejoin and stand. Speaking as both a lawyer and a paddy (and PFA member), I'm somewhat miffed by the implications in nongpsuser's last post, but will let that go. I do not have sufficient information to comment on the affairs of the PFA, but support open debate, and trust Stik's judgment, so will also second the candidature if E2G wants it.
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I figured that if Stik approved it was good enough for me, even if his choice of Pitts-paint is a bit dodgy. I guess if all else fails Stik and I can get together and nominate FNG...
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Look Tony R started this thread because they would not let him play on the PFA BB anymore. He may have been anoyed at the PFA because of the Adams case but if the PFA think that Adams did something wrong then why should they let him back as an Inspector.
JBQC gets hold of some info from the court case and from some "so called" EC member and he hammers the PFA because some member told a lie. and him (a Lawyer) worring about a lie.
Flying Lawyer comes from another direction to discredit the association because "one" member lost his temper and went to the CAA.
WHAT I AM SAYING IS THE REST OF YOU WHO BELEIVE THIS CRAP ARE "NO BRAINERS"
JBQC gets hold of some info from the court case and from some "so called" EC member and he hammers the PFA because some member told a lie. and him (a Lawyer) worring about a lie.
Flying Lawyer comes from another direction to discredit the association because "one" member lost his temper and went to the CAA.
WHAT I AM SAYING IS THE REST OF YOU WHO BELEIVE THIS CRAP ARE "NO BRAINERS"
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Before I start, can I make it absolutely clear that I am NOT commenting on either of the main complaints that this thread seems to be about. I merely wish to offer my thoughts on whether or not it is right to complain.
nongpsuser, I would suggest that it is people with attitudes like yours that are the real cause of the decline. Your approach seems to be "I've got what I want so don't rock the boat" regardless of whether what you end up with is actually worth having.
I don't fly a permit aircraft but I was a PFA member, for quite a few years; I was also a member of AOPA. At one time I actually began to feel that the PFA was the future for light aircraft GA (at least in the context of PFA v AOPA), they seemed to take a users view of the world and be prepared to stand up and be counted. Then I started to get disillusioned - can't really put my finger on why, maybe it was the silly debate over moving from Shoreham - anyway, I did not renew my membership. I was not sufficiently emotionally attached to the PFA to fight for it but neither was I so blindly dependent upon it that I was going to turn a blind eye.
AOPA was a different matter, I was also disillusioned with them but I tried fighting. In the end, I gave up because one individual was not prepared to enter into a debate on what was wrong. I did not want to quit AOPA but I was not prepared to turn a blind eye and pretend it was OK just because I "needed it" to represent me (moot point).
All of which rambling is my weary way of trying to say that if people feel strongly enough about what is wrong with the PFA then they absolutely should fight for it. Burying your head in the sand and pretending the problem doesn't exist just so the association doesn't collapse is actually a sure way to achieve exactly that result.
Aiglon
I dont give a damm, but I DO want to have a PFA to permit my aircraft next year.
I don't fly a permit aircraft but I was a PFA member, for quite a few years; I was also a member of AOPA. At one time I actually began to feel that the PFA was the future for light aircraft GA (at least in the context of PFA v AOPA), they seemed to take a users view of the world and be prepared to stand up and be counted. Then I started to get disillusioned - can't really put my finger on why, maybe it was the silly debate over moving from Shoreham - anyway, I did not renew my membership. I was not sufficiently emotionally attached to the PFA to fight for it but neither was I so blindly dependent upon it that I was going to turn a blind eye.
AOPA was a different matter, I was also disillusioned with them but I tried fighting. In the end, I gave up because one individual was not prepared to enter into a debate on what was wrong. I did not want to quit AOPA but I was not prepared to turn a blind eye and pretend it was OK just because I "needed it" to represent me (moot point).
All of which rambling is my weary way of trying to say that if people feel strongly enough about what is wrong with the PFA then they absolutely should fight for it. Burying your head in the sand and pretending the problem doesn't exist just so the association doesn't collapse is actually a sure way to achieve exactly that result.
Aiglon
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I've tried to stay out of this because I can see no good coming from this thread but I'm fed up with this slagging off of the PFA.
Firstly I was in the north side Aircraft Park when the Extras were doing what they did. I'm not going to argue with FL over how high or how legal. I didn't comment at the time because I hoped it would all blow over.
I would like to ask how many people on this thread are current PFA members, how many have stood for election and how many actually show up and help out rather than whine how things would be better if they did it. So are you prepared to stand up and be counted.
I' the chairman of my local strut, not because I think I'll be any good but because it needs to be done. I have worked on all but one rally since 1989. The, I asked but they didn't want me excuse is pretty poor really, most struts look after a bit of the rally and always need more help. Even it's only a couple of hours on one day it all adds up.
If you don’t like the association then as a member you have the power to change it, if you can’t be bothered to help then do you really have the write to complain?
Firstly I was in the north side Aircraft Park when the Extras were doing what they did. I'm not going to argue with FL over how high or how legal. I didn't comment at the time because I hoped it would all blow over.
I would like to ask how many people on this thread are current PFA members, how many have stood for election and how many actually show up and help out rather than whine how things would be better if they did it. So are you prepared to stand up and be counted.
I' the chairman of my local strut, not because I think I'll be any good but because it needs to be done. I have worked on all but one rally since 1989. The, I asked but they didn't want me excuse is pretty poor really, most struts look after a bit of the rally and always need more help. Even it's only a couple of hours on one day it all adds up.
If you don’t like the association then as a member you have the power to change it, if you can’t be bothered to help then do you really have the write to complain?
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nongpsuser,
Thanks for the complement.
If the PFA would tell us all what George did wrong instead of this "duty of care" ****e, we may understand the reason for them not re-instating him.
If the PFA would have answered the letters from members about the case then I would never have gone to the BB.
If the PFA would have read the petition from over 50 members here (in paddyland) requesting that George be re-instated.
If the PFA had not taken the word of a couple of liars then the case would never have come to court. (I was in court and heard them being exposed as liars).
If the PFA had listened to the engineering dept the case would not have come to court (remember the chief inspector was suspended for standing up for George)
Now don't start about the CAA taking the case anyway, the CAA got its info from the PFA.
If the PFA would stop looking up and covering each others arseholes then you might have a chance of getting this association on the rails again.
Tony Ringland (humble engineer and paddy)
Thanks for the complement.
If the PFA would tell us all what George did wrong instead of this "duty of care" ****e, we may understand the reason for them not re-instating him.
If the PFA would have answered the letters from members about the case then I would never have gone to the BB.
If the PFA would have read the petition from over 50 members here (in paddyland) requesting that George be re-instated.
If the PFA had not taken the word of a couple of liars then the case would never have come to court. (I was in court and heard them being exposed as liars).
If the PFA had listened to the engineering dept the case would not have come to court (remember the chief inspector was suspended for standing up for George)
Now don't start about the CAA taking the case anyway, the CAA got its info from the PFA.
If the PFA would stop looking up and covering each others arseholes then you might have a chance of getting this association on the rails again.
Tony Ringland (humble engineer and paddy)
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Nongpsuser
I would suggest that you go and get a GPS because you seem to be lost, and if you get too close to the EC you will be looking up their rear end and not seeing the road ahead.
JB (Lawyer, born Canada, live England, 1/2 Paddy)
I would suggest that you go and get a GPS because you seem to be lost, and if you get too close to the EC you will be looking up their rear end and not seeing the road ahead.
JB (Lawyer, born Canada, live England, 1/2 Paddy)
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Hey nongpsuser,
I don't suppose you are going to holiday in Ireland this year.
You got to be careful when you insult a paddy and remember there are more of us outside Ireland than in.
Do "you" have a name?
John Anderson (Born Lisburn, N Ireland, live US)
I don't suppose you are going to holiday in Ireland this year.
You got to be careful when you insult a paddy and remember there are more of us outside Ireland than in.
Do "you" have a name?
John Anderson (Born Lisburn, N Ireland, live US)
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I keep reading references to 2 or 3 EC members who are not fit for the post. Both on this forum and the previously unsanitized PFA BB.
It would be very helpful to the average member (like myself) if we were given their names. I can't see any other route to being rid of them.
I wouldn't know any EC members if I fell over them so for the sake of sanity, make their names known.
If anyone wishes to 'out' them by private mail, I will gladly do the necessary.
Mushroom2 - literally.
It would be very helpful to the average member (like myself) if we were given their names. I can't see any other route to being rid of them.
I wouldn't know any EC members if I fell over them so for the sake of sanity, make their names known.
If anyone wishes to 'out' them by private mail, I will gladly do the necessary.
Mushroom2 - literally.
Not so N, but still FG
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Mushroom 2, it is not fair to the owners of pprune to invite critical and potentially actionable comments about named or identifiable individuals in a public forum such as this.
Nongpsuser, your arguments might be better received if not accompanied by insults. Note, by the way, that Flying Lawyer has not sought to discredit the PFA as an organisation but has given his views of the Kemble case based on a close knowledge of that case. Lawyers, by the way, are often rather more attached to the truth than popular opinion would suggest.
Nongpsuser, your arguments might be better received if not accompanied by insults. Note, by the way, that Flying Lawyer has not sought to discredit the PFA as an organisation but has given his views of the Kemble case based on a close knowledge of that case. Lawyers, by the way, are often rather more attached to the truth than popular opinion would suggest.
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Mushroom2
I bet your feeling a bit like your name, ie. being kept in the dark and fed s....
I would not be a good idea to publish the names of the "baddies" here but you should ask the same question on the PFA BB and somone might do so. The post will be removed but some people might see it.
I bet your feeling a bit like your name, ie. being kept in the dark and fed s....
I would not be a good idea to publish the names of the "baddies" here but you should ask the same question on the PFA BB and somone might do so. The post will be removed but some people might see it.
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I just know I'm going to regret putting my head above the parapet but here goes! As Vice Chairman of the PFA:
Mushroom 2, I gather from your post that you are a PFA member?
For your information a full list of EC members is published on the website and on the first page of Popular Flying magazine.
As for not knowing any of us if you fell over us that's probably true, simply because we really are ordinary PFA members who are trying to put something back into an association we have gained a great deal of pleasure from. Chances are that you have seen me at a fly-in or stood next to me at the bar during a PFA Rally.
As for naming delinquent members of the EC, please! Contrary to popular belief (at least on BBs) we aren't some secret society filled with dyed in the wool comittee men and power hungry individuals with big fish in small pond mentalities.
Some of the posts on here and indeed on the PFA website show a regrettable ignorance of the 'official' structure of the PFA. As a member everything about running the PFA is available to you. To become an EC member you only need to be proposed and seconded by ORDINARY PFA members, a couple of your mates will do, whether they are known by a wide audience doesn't matter a jot, especially while apathy rules and there are more places than candidates on the EC (that has been the case for 5 years now!).
Tony R, I would like to answer some of your questions, but I have no intention of answering them publicly as I believe I would be treading in potentially litigous areas. If you would like to speak with me I'd be happy to give you a phone number. Email me at [email protected].
It's an unfortunate fact that if you count all the posters on here and the PFA website for any particular thread, they are very few indeed compared with the total membership of the PFA. At a recent National Council meeting (where Strut representatives have a chance to debate directly with the EC) your subject - 'The Adams affair' was brought up by the Association Chairman. The response was that hardly a single rep knew anything about it, it was not 'hot gossip' despite the publicity on BBs and in the magazine.
All any of you will do here is to succeed in damaging the association for the future. Members won't leave in their droves, the only ones actually interested in this subject are those with aircraft on a permit, building or about to build, around 2000 members. Those 2000 or so members are the ones who will suffer in the long run if as some here would like we lose our exposition.
If you as members don't like what is happening then do something positive about it, get one or more of 'your' political group on the EC and effect some POSITIVE changes for yourselves. New blood on the EC would be no bad thing, there are indeed some 'old dogs' languishing there, but there haven't been any new dogs to see them off!
Someone here called for the entire comittee and upper management to be sacked........er they did something like that in Cambodia, remember, some chap called Pol Pot or similar.
The George Adams affair has taken a great deal of the EC's time and of course Office time. We haven't dealt lightly with it and the EC meeting(s) when we debated the subject ran well over time, 11.00 pm I seem to remember. It certainly wasn't a whitewash, there was heated debate, and it was extremely difficult to get to where we did. There was never going to be a perfect solution to the problem.
Just to put the record straight on one thing however; I checked after reading this thread, George Adams was phoned on no less than 8 occasions. He has the opportunity to re-apply for his Inspector approval but has DECLINED. Re applying is something EVERY inspector does EVERY year.
Ladies and Gents of PPRUNE, what are you trying to achieve here? Justice, Truth? We ALL want that along with an ideal world!
The PFA is a great association but it's run by a volunteer membership crew, it's frankly a bloody thankless task but someone has to do it and I doubt very much whether the more vociferous of you here will actually put yourselves forward to really effect some change, tho in fact the time you spend here posting at all hours of the day and night could amount to very procuctive time on behalf of the association if that's what you really desired (and some of you obviously do).
Since the George Adams affair, serious changes have taken place in the PFA. A new head of engineering has joined us, tasked with the thorny problems of EASA (the real threat to all GA flying), mode S etc.
As a direct result of the George Adams affair we have separated Inspection from Engineering and Ken Craigie is now head of that department (not what you would expect us to do if we had suspended him for supporting George!). New inspection procedures are in place including a rolling audit of all inspectors to tighten up standards and hopefully ensure safer flying for all of us.
On the EC front we even have a new Chairman and members are working on various tasks to enhance the association.
It would be a lot better if instead of carping on amongst yourselves that you contact one of us directly for an answer. If you don't like the answer then ask another; we fight like cats and dogs sometimes so you are bound to get a better flavour of a particular subject by asking around. I'm at a loss to know how to show you that we are accessible to any member if only you would try. We can't publicise everything we discuss and throw it open for debate amongst 8500 members, nothing would ever get done.
I too fly, microlights, spam cans and my first love now a taildragger. We all want the same thing in the long run and whinging won't get it.
Mushroom 2, I gather from your post that you are a PFA member?
For your information a full list of EC members is published on the website and on the first page of Popular Flying magazine.
As for not knowing any of us if you fell over us that's probably true, simply because we really are ordinary PFA members who are trying to put something back into an association we have gained a great deal of pleasure from. Chances are that you have seen me at a fly-in or stood next to me at the bar during a PFA Rally.
As for naming delinquent members of the EC, please! Contrary to popular belief (at least on BBs) we aren't some secret society filled with dyed in the wool comittee men and power hungry individuals with big fish in small pond mentalities.
Some of the posts on here and indeed on the PFA website show a regrettable ignorance of the 'official' structure of the PFA. As a member everything about running the PFA is available to you. To become an EC member you only need to be proposed and seconded by ORDINARY PFA members, a couple of your mates will do, whether they are known by a wide audience doesn't matter a jot, especially while apathy rules and there are more places than candidates on the EC (that has been the case for 5 years now!).
Tony R, I would like to answer some of your questions, but I have no intention of answering them publicly as I believe I would be treading in potentially litigous areas. If you would like to speak with me I'd be happy to give you a phone number. Email me at [email protected].
It's an unfortunate fact that if you count all the posters on here and the PFA website for any particular thread, they are very few indeed compared with the total membership of the PFA. At a recent National Council meeting (where Strut representatives have a chance to debate directly with the EC) your subject - 'The Adams affair' was brought up by the Association Chairman. The response was that hardly a single rep knew anything about it, it was not 'hot gossip' despite the publicity on BBs and in the magazine.
All any of you will do here is to succeed in damaging the association for the future. Members won't leave in their droves, the only ones actually interested in this subject are those with aircraft on a permit, building or about to build, around 2000 members. Those 2000 or so members are the ones who will suffer in the long run if as some here would like we lose our exposition.
If you as members don't like what is happening then do something positive about it, get one or more of 'your' political group on the EC and effect some POSITIVE changes for yourselves. New blood on the EC would be no bad thing, there are indeed some 'old dogs' languishing there, but there haven't been any new dogs to see them off!
Someone here called for the entire comittee and upper management to be sacked........er they did something like that in Cambodia, remember, some chap called Pol Pot or similar.
The George Adams affair has taken a great deal of the EC's time and of course Office time. We haven't dealt lightly with it and the EC meeting(s) when we debated the subject ran well over time, 11.00 pm I seem to remember. It certainly wasn't a whitewash, there was heated debate, and it was extremely difficult to get to where we did. There was never going to be a perfect solution to the problem.
Just to put the record straight on one thing however; I checked after reading this thread, George Adams was phoned on no less than 8 occasions. He has the opportunity to re-apply for his Inspector approval but has DECLINED. Re applying is something EVERY inspector does EVERY year.
Ladies and Gents of PPRUNE, what are you trying to achieve here? Justice, Truth? We ALL want that along with an ideal world!
The PFA is a great association but it's run by a volunteer membership crew, it's frankly a bloody thankless task but someone has to do it and I doubt very much whether the more vociferous of you here will actually put yourselves forward to really effect some change, tho in fact the time you spend here posting at all hours of the day and night could amount to very procuctive time on behalf of the association if that's what you really desired (and some of you obviously do).
Since the George Adams affair, serious changes have taken place in the PFA. A new head of engineering has joined us, tasked with the thorny problems of EASA (the real threat to all GA flying), mode S etc.
As a direct result of the George Adams affair we have separated Inspection from Engineering and Ken Craigie is now head of that department (not what you would expect us to do if we had suspended him for supporting George!). New inspection procedures are in place including a rolling audit of all inspectors to tighten up standards and hopefully ensure safer flying for all of us.
On the EC front we even have a new Chairman and members are working on various tasks to enhance the association.
It would be a lot better if instead of carping on amongst yourselves that you contact one of us directly for an answer. If you don't like the answer then ask another; we fight like cats and dogs sometimes so you are bound to get a better flavour of a particular subject by asking around. I'm at a loss to know how to show you that we are accessible to any member if only you would try. We can't publicise everything we discuss and throw it open for debate amongst 8500 members, nothing would ever get done.
I too fly, microlights, spam cans and my first love now a taildragger. We all want the same thing in the long run and whinging won't get it.
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It would be very helpful to the average member (like myself) if we were given their names. I can't see any other route to being rid of them.
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Nigel, If you want honesty please admit that George was "Not" phoned for one month after the case was over and that he was only contacted after my post on the PFA BB.
I will email you later.
Tony
I will email you later.
Tony
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Tony, I'm not in the dock here! I don't have to admit anything. The truth; I can't say for certain when George was phoned. I did yesterday however ask Graham Newby personally whether we had called George or not. He answered the Vice Chairman as opposed to me personally so the answer was official. What more can I do to verify this? I understand that George is 76 years old and simply wants to put this whole sorry business behind him which is why he won't renew as a PFA inspector. I don't blame him for that and it's for that reason that I don't propose to question him personally about when and how many times he was called. The EC made a decision democratically and the Association acted upon it, nothing will change that now. I understand your desire to champion your friend, but you have been given some great references on here so I must assume you are a 'good guy'. I certainly don't criticise you for your defence of George but this isn't getting us anywhere useful. I've tried to show that we have made some big changes as a result of this sorry affair, and we are continuing to sharpen up our act.
I for one joined the EC as my own man, not as a stalking horse or supporter of another EC member, I say what I think and I have a habit of turning over stones if I think something slimey is underneath, doesn't make me popular but what the hell.
Give me REAL proof of something, anything and you have my word publicly that I'll look into it, but I won't do it on here.
Look forward to hearing from you, I'd like to talk this through with you.
I for one joined the EC as my own man, not as a stalking horse or supporter of another EC member, I say what I think and I have a habit of turning over stones if I think something slimey is underneath, doesn't make me popular but what the hell.
Give me REAL proof of something, anything and you have my word publicly that I'll look into it, but I won't do it on here.
Look forward to hearing from you, I'd like to talk this through with you.
Last edited by NigelR; 23rd Apr 2004 at 09:21.
So close, and yet so far!
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Well I for one would be happy to stand for the EC - on the grounds that yes, it IS far easier to stand on the outside and criticize, than to get involved. But whether or not they would want me...
GF
GF
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Girl Friday,
Of course we would want you! But we would need to know your name!!
Seriously though, we do want new members and you would be welcomed I can assure you. Actually to be correct, it wouldn't matter if we didn't want you, if you were correctly proposed and seconded, we couldn't stop you from becoming an EC member. The only qualification is that you have to have been a member for one year I believe.
It's coming up to that time of year, so look out for the EC election stuff in PF, get someone to propose you etc and we'll be seeing you in September, it's that easy, unless of course there is such a rush that the membership actually have to vote for candidates; now that would show that things were improving.
In fact email me some details about yourself and your intentions as an EC member and if I like what I hear I'll propose you myself!
Of course we would want you! But we would need to know your name!!
Seriously though, we do want new members and you would be welcomed I can assure you. Actually to be correct, it wouldn't matter if we didn't want you, if you were correctly proposed and seconded, we couldn't stop you from becoming an EC member. The only qualification is that you have to have been a member for one year I believe.
It's coming up to that time of year, so look out for the EC election stuff in PF, get someone to propose you etc and we'll be seeing you in September, it's that easy, unless of course there is such a rush that the membership actually have to vote for candidates; now that would show that things were improving.
In fact email me some details about yourself and your intentions as an EC member and if I like what I hear I'll propose you myself!